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Angalin

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread, Part X

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So ten threads in and the debate is still going strong. I wonder how dead this thread will be on July 12th and 13th as we all sequester ourselves to see if out suspicions are confirmed denied or left hanging In Dragons.

Here is a question for those who lean away or are outright against the R+L=J theory. Aside from a possible child having been raised by Reed, where else might a child of Lyanna be hiding at? Does anyone else think a character we might already know be it? Also if Jon is not a head of the dragon who are the two that think will join Daney?

As I said before I believe that the new trio will be the inverse of the original, Daney, one male (Jon, I hope), and one female. Daney is infertile or at least in capable of producing a living child so far as we know. I think that this is needed and likely so that there is a couple who can carry the line on. (A King or Queen needs an heir)

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Here is a question for those who lean away or are outright against the R+L=J theory. Aside from a possible child having been raised by Reed, where else might a child of Lyanna be hiding at?

If R+L!=J, why would we assume there's a child at all? (Aside from an interpretation of the 'bed of blood'.)

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If R+L!=J, why would we assume there's a child at all? (Aside from an interpretation of the 'bed of blood'.)

a child would be significant for the plot, any other promise Ned had to keep wouldn't matter after all those years...

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a child would be significant for the plot, any other promise Ned had to keep wouldn't matter after all those years...

Oh, I can think of a lot of promises that don't involve children that would still matter. I'm sure GRRM can too.

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As I said before I believe that the new trio will be the inverse of the original, Daney, one male (Jon, I hope), and one female. Daney is infertile or at least in capable of producing a living child so far as we know. I think that this is needed and likely so that there is a couple who can carry the line on. (A King or Queen needs an heir)

Arya (wishful thinking)

I am not sure that Dany is infertile, that was what the witch said to her, nothing else.

Ditto.

I don't believe she is infertile at all.

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I am not sure that Dany is infertile, that was what the witch said to her, nothing else.

To an extent I do believe that she is. Not saying that this issue couldn't be fixed by some other magic users however, Daney believes it herself, and why would the witch lie about it? It didn't serve her in anyway.

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To an extent I do believe that she is. Not saying that this issue couldn't be fixed by some other magic users however, Daney believes it herself, and why would the witch lie about it? It didn't serve her in anyway.

well, why would she say the truth?

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well, why would she say the truth?

It is not so much that find her to be a trustworthy source more that aside from hurting Daney's feelings there is no motivation. Adding infertility to the mound of heartbreak that is losing your love and your child in one fell swoop seems almost ineffectual. Add to that the whole "Dragon Has Three Heads" aspect of the lore and I see it as driving the plot in the direction of a fulfillment of that prophecy. Why would Daney take a third partner into her possible future marriage unless it was necessitated by some force other than "You have to do it cause its the prophecy." In good storytelling events shouldn't happen just because there is a prophecy saying they should, there has to be events which push the characters into fulfilling their individual destinies.

Taking R+L=J to be true, and Jon as one of the heads for Example:

Growing up the motherless all but bastard second son of Rheagar. The man we know as Jon Snow would be raised in privilege, bastard or no, with great instructors in the arts of war and diplomacy. He would also however also be subject to the influence of the Mad King who in this alternate reality would have never been deposed and quite possibly could still be reigning up to the current timeline in Westeros. His brother being the 2nd in line to the throne would receive the lions share of attention and instruction from their father, and Jon may have no higher place in Kings Landing than he did in Winterfell, perhaps lower as the nephew of a rebel lord. Jon never finds Ghost or goes to the wall, and therefore never saves the Lord Commander from the walking dead. Jon never finds and gives same the only known means of killing the others, nor infiltrates Mance Ryder's wildings and so also never saves the wall from the free-folks attack, and never recovers the horn of winter.

Daney meanwhile is the youngest sibling of the King in waiting, having been married off to some high lord, or to Viserys or Ageon around the time of the beginning of AGoT, or to some closely related cousin. Not Jon though, after all son of the heir or not, a bastard is still a bastard in this culture. Not having to grow up as quickly as she has had to in the current story line Daney, having never met or married Khal Drogo, never grows into her own strength, never receives the dragon eggs, and has never had the reason or resources to learn how to hatch them.

In this world the winter comes, as hard and fast as it has, only this time the wall is overrun, the north as well, and there is not Jon Snow to stem the tide, there are no dragons to save the realm when the time comes. Jon and Daney are both far weaker versions of themselves having never been tested as they have. All because Robert lost on the Trident.

Westeros loses two of its heroes, and thus is lost to the ravages of The Long Winter and The Others due to one small change in the course of events, or Three Dragons magically appear for no reason and three riders also conveniently know how to raise and control them without the powers associated with Wrags.

I see the loss of Drogo and Daney's infertility as other versions of these small events, seemingly insignificant, however it is what will end up pushing Daney into fulfilling her destiny as a one of Three heads of the Dragon instead of only having her and a Husband.

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From Nine of Spades

The past in a story is the part you've told. The future is the part you haven't told. The only thing that GRRM is commited to is the stuff hes written down already and published.

Not so. The past in a story is what has happened before the 'current' part of the story, not just what has been already been told.

Robert's Rebellion is the 'past', even the parts we haven't 'seen' yet.

People, including well written characters, are a product of their past. Change the past, you change the person. Change the person you change the way they act or react to events and to other characters.

The point is that a 'gardener' can grow his story, but he can't change the earth in which it is grown without damaging the plant itself. The future can be unknown by the gardener but the soil must be fixed before the garden can be grown.

GRRM might have the literal capability to change the past storyline that hasn't yet come out, but he is far to good for that. The earth was placed before the story was grown in it, and he is far to good a gardener to risk damaging his crop by trying to change the soil it grows in once it is so well developed. The back-story is fixed, even if the forward-story is not.

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The point is that a 'gardener' can grow his story, but he can't change the earth in which it is grown without damaging the plant itself. The future can be unknown by the gardener but the soil must be fixed before the garden can be grown.

GRRM might have the literal capability to change the past storyline that hasn't yet come out, but he is far to good for that. The earth was placed before the story was grown in it, and he is far to good a gardener to risk damaging his crop by trying to change the soil it grows in once it is so well developed. The back-story is fixed, even if the forward-story is not.

Well put, Martin has even said he likes to write a lot of his story lines "Organically" letting them grow from what he has already written and where he knows the story is heading. He doesn't plan out the entire arc before he writes, he just has some way points he knows he wants to touch on before continuing the journey. He knows where he is going just not exactly how he is planning on getting there. Also to quote GRRM "Retconning sucks" and I doubt he would employ it in his stories, he already knows what has occurred in his world and I sincerely doubt he is going to alter the past of his world.

GRRM is the architect of this world and doesn't have to be "committed" to anything. While we fans like to believe he owes us something for reading his work, and that he has a commitment to stay "in canon" he does not. Will he, I'm sure he will, as I think he would view altering his own world as little better than Fan Fiction. His commitment is to the integrity of his story. An author shouldn't be concerned with writing something that pleases his audience, if he does it will turn out poorly, they should write something that they want to read, and if they are lucky other people will enjoy the journey as well.

You can't know where you are going, until you know where you have been. He knows where he is going and so its doubtful he'll change where Ice and Fire was.

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My first post in this thread!!!!

I firmly believe that R+L=J. After first reading abut the theory in these forums, all the Ned POV in AGOT matches it seamlessly. There multiple hints, but the strongest one is the presence of Three!!!! members of the Kingsguard, including the LC, in the TOJ. Excluding some crackpot theory about babies swapping, why else would they be there if not to protect the son of Rhaergar, someone he considered far more important than his two legitimate children.

That said, I think that doesn't necessarily implies anything else about Jon's destiny. For all we know, Rhaergar could be completely wrong about all that PTWP prophecy, he would not be the first character in the series to make a seriously stupid mistake :rolleyes:

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Just watched a house Stark featurette on youtube for the upcoming series, I didn't pick much up regarding R+L=J from AGoT book probably as i am a relative newcomer to the series and only read the first one once and there is a helluva lot to take in....

But in the little clip when it introduces Jon, Ned says something along the lines of " You may not share my name but you share my blood" as GRRM has written and overseen some of the episodes i would say this is pretty intentional nudge in the R+L direction for sure.

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From Nine of Spades

Not so. The past in a story is what has happened before the 'current' part of the story, not just what has been already been told.

Robert's Rebellion is the 'past', even the parts we haven't 'seen' yet.

People, including well written characters, are a product of their past. Change the past, you change the person. Change the person you change the way they act or react to events and to other characters.

The point is that a 'gardener' can grow his story, but he can't change the earth in which it is grown without damaging the plant itself. The future can be unknown by the gardener but the soil must be fixed before the garden can be grown.

GRRM might have the literal capability to change the past storyline that hasn't yet come out, but he is far to good for that. The earth was placed before the story was grown in it, and he is far to good a gardener to risk damaging his crop by trying to change the soil it grows in once it is so well developed. The back-story is fixed, even if the forward-story is not.

Moving a plant from one location to another is pretty common. Its called transplanting (a famous set of medical procedures have borrowed the name). Altering the soil is also quite possible. Its called fertilizing.

Not to nit pick your analogy, but just because something is hard to do, doesn't mean that it doesn't get done.

Well put, Martin has even said he likes to write a lot of his story lines "Organically" letting them grow from what he has already written and where he knows the story is heading. He doesn't plan out the entire arc before he writes, he just has some way points he knows he wants to touch on before continuing the journey. He knows where he is going just not exactly how he is planning on getting there. Also to quote GRRM "Retconning sucks" and I doubt he would employ it in his stories, he already knows what has occurred in his world and I sincerely doubt he is going to alter the past of his world.

GRRM is the architect of this world and doesn't have to be "committed" to anything. While we fans like to believe he owes us something for reading his work, and that he has a commitment to stay "in canon" he does not. Will he, I'm sure he will, as I think he would view altering his own world as little better than Fan Fiction. His commitment is to the integrity of his story. An author shouldn't be concerned with writing something that pleases his audience, if he does it will turn out poorly, they should write something that they want to read, and if they are lucky other people will enjoy the journey as well.

You can't know where you are going, until you know where you have been. He knows where he is going and so its doubtful he'll change where Ice and Fire was.

Hes not going to retcon, or shoehorn anything that doesn't fit, but I think that's more because he is a good writer. There are limits to how far he can stretch and reshape things before they become weak or distorted. Sort of like unbending a paperclip and then trying to bend it back. Or to put it another way, I think Martin would change around any aspect of the story if he thought those changes fit with what hes written, and they made for a better story. There are dark spots that give him room to play in, gaps in the readers knowledge that are open to some changing. But saying that doesn't mean he is going to change things on a whim or lightly. But if he does it right, the only way we would ever know is if he told us.

Now doing that well is very hard. Which is why I think we have been sitting and waiting for the last two books for so long, as he has grappled with a number of things that came up because of his timeline changes.

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Hes not going to retcon, or shoehorn anything that doesn't fit, but I think that's more because he is a good writer. There are limits to how far he can stretch and reshape things before they become weak or distorted. Sort of like unbending a paperclip and then trying to bend it back. Or to put it another way, I think Martin would change around any aspect of the story if he thought those changes fit with what hes written, and they made for a better story.

I agree, however on the issue of R+L=J, and assuming it to be true, it is a MAJOR plot point and would be difficult to move away from without completely altering the DNA of the story we are already wrapped up in.

I don't see the Wall remaining standing past the end of DWD, the realm has been to caught up in its own drama to face the threat of the Others seriously. If there is no Wall then there is no Nights Watch, they become scattered and driven south. If R+L=J Jon becoming one of the heads of the Dragon is the next logical development after his identity is revealed. His claim, or any child that may have been born by Rhaegar and Lyanna, assuming they were married similarly to the custom of holding two wives like Ageon did is actually stronger than Daney's. A true-born son of the next in line. Much like the eldest son of Stravros is next in line for the Twins, and his sons before Walder's other sons even come into contention (unless Walder names another heir, which can't happen with the Targs as all but Daney, Jon? and possibly one other are currently alive,and no living Targ would have a stronger claim than a true heir of Rhaegar).

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I'm sure it is known, but I was rereading the conversation between Aemon and Jon in AGOT and was wondering if Aemon knows about R+L=j. They talk about Ned's sense of duty and honor and then Aemon says something like "what is duty compared with holding a new born in your hands, what is honor compared with a brother's smile" which could recall Lyanna's smile after Ned promises, and Ned holding little Jon.

Benjen obviuosly is the one who could have tell Aemon...

(Sorry if it has been said a million of times, there are too many R+L=J thread parts :blush: )

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I'm sure it is known, but I was rereading the conversation between Aemon and Jon in AGOT and was wondering if Aemon knows about R+L=j. They talk about Ned's sense of duty and honor and then Aemon says something like "what is duty compared with holding a new born in your hands, what is honor compared with a brother's smile" which could recall Lyanna's smile after Ned promises, and Ned holding little Jon.

Benjen obviuosly is the one who could have tell Aemon...

(Sorry if it has been said a million of times, there are too many R+L=J thread parts :blush: )

I agree that Aemon might have known, however this could also just be Martin using some foreshadowing. I got a similar feeling when I reread the series after coming to the R+L=J conclusion.

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(Sorry if it has been said a million of times, there are too many R+L=J thread parts :blush: )

Shouldn't somebody put a link to the onld R+L=J thread?

I agree that Aemon might have known, however this could also just be Martin using some foreshadowing. I got a similar feeling when I reread the series after coming to the R+L=J conclusion.

just foreshadowing, IMHO. There are a lot of sentences in the books that looks like foreshadowing if you read them "after". Also, there are at lest four or five phrases hinting/ foreshadowning/ referring to R+L=J.. and one of them is spoken by Robert! I don't think robert might have known ;)

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