The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread, Part X

[PacificViking]

Mark Hamill did not know that Vader's big reveal was "No, Luke. I am your father" until The Empire Strikes Back had its premier. The line David Prowse said on set was, "No, Luke. Ben killed your father." Actors don't always know the story. They know the script, which tells them enough to get on with in the present, but not all the future twists of the plot. If we don't know the circumstances of Jon Snow's birth, there is no reason to suppose the actors would know any better. So far, they have only seen a script for A Game of Thrones.

Great point, it happens fairly often, its not like with, forgive me, The Harry Potter series where it was important Rickman to understand that he actually was a good guy, and that his antagonism was not due to hate for Harry so much as his hate for Harry's father due to his marrying the woman Snape loved. Some times actors have to be kept in the dark in order to protect honesty in their performance. Does this mean that Bean doesn't know if Jon is actually Rhaegar's, no if anyone in the series does it is Bean I would wager, however He is professional enough to understand that even if Martin did tell him to inform his performance that he has to maintain the same line that Eddard did, keep the secret. Martin would not have told him without impressing upon him the importance of keeping his mouth shut as, if true, this will be one of the major plot points of the entire series. Bean is going to tow the public story on Jon even in interviews. In practice Jon is the product of Ned's infidelity, as far as Cat, Robb, the seven kingdoms, and Jon himself is concerned up to this point he is Ned's son. Also Ned has lived the previous 15 years (17 years in the show) with this secret and has raised Jon as if it were true, this would bring with it far more comfort with the lie than the truth. It would not do to have the entire cast in on this secret as it would at the very least subconsciously inform their performances if they knew.

[Fantasy Fan]

y's infertility as other versions of these small events, seemingly insignificant, however it is what will end up pushing Daney into fulfilling her destiny as a one of Three heads of the Dragon instead of only having her and a Husband.

Why is "the dragon has three heads" taken to mean that that the three "heads" must be in a three-way marriage or, for that matter, that each of the "three heads" must have a dragon to ride?

For example, isn't it possible that Jon is one of the three heads, but that he will never be married to any of the other heads nor will he ever ride a dragon?

Rather, he will simply lead the struggle against the Others from the front. That is his role. That is the role of his 1/3 of the Prince that was Promised.

Perhaps each of the heads will marry someone else.

Perhaps the particular people Dany assigns to ride Dragons are not necessarily the "heads" of prophesy?

[PacificViking]

Why is "the dragon has three heads" taken to mean that that the three "heads" must be in a three-way marriage or, for that matter, that each of the "three heads" must have a dragon to ride?

For example, isn't it possible that Jon is one of the three heads, but that he will never be married to any of the other heads nor will he ever ride a dragon?

Rather, he will simply lead the struggle against the Others from the front. That is his role. That is the role of his 1/3 of the Prince that was Promised.

Perhaps each of the heads will marry someone else.

Perhaps the particular people Dany assigns to ride Dragons are not necessarily the "heads" of prophesy?

Jon riding a dragon makes more sense than most other characters as Jon is a wrag, like Bran, like Arya and Rickon. In the previews we have seen the Dragons are beginning to get a out of control, burning children and such. Also you have Victorian sailing to meet Daney and his brother expecting to be able to wrest control of the dragons through use of that horn of his.

Also the reason I see a three way marriage to be a possibility, though not necessarily certian is that it makes a sense as far as narrative symmetry is concerned. Ageon and his sisters were a "Three Headed Dragon," they were married and all rode dragons. There are three Dragons and I think that's what will really make a character one of the Heads, the riding, the ability to command the loyalty and obedience of a dragon, that is what is important, even more so than Daney's approval.

[Targaryen loyalist]

Two points that I want to raise (maybe they were already discussed, but ten threads are too much).

If L+R=J is true (and I doubt it) then two ideas come to my mind:

- First: Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy that - if I recall correctly - is in Dorne. This makes me think that maybe Doran and the other Martel know something about the ToJ events. Even if they just know that Lyanna was pregnant it must have been quite easy for them to connect the "mysterious" Ned Stark bastard with Lyanna's child. So I think that maybe also the Dornish know the truth about R+L=J, and if this theory is correct maybe it will be Quentyn and not Howland Reed to reveal the truth (maybe to Dany herself).

- Second: if Jon Targaryen parentage is proven and then revealed to the world, I think this could cause troubles for him and Dany. If Jon is a - bastard - son of Rahegar he is the living proof of Rahegar being unfaithful to Elia... Betrayal that - if true - was the cause of Robert's rebellion and then of Elia death. So I think that the Martel won't be so kind with Jon if he will ever became Jon Targaryen... First of all they will never recognize him as a true Targaryen but only as a bastard. Secondly if Dany decides to recognize him as a Targ and maybe as her heir presumptive or even husband (she is really linked with her family heritage, and now she thinks of being the last Targ... Find a new Targ will make her quite happy... Moreover Tyron - if he ever became an ally of Dany - is quite friendly towards Jon Snow, so might also influence Dany to accept Jon as a friend and ally) the Martel can be pissed off and leave Dany's Coalition, with a great damage for her.

[bobbyboy]

Find a new Targ will make her quite happy... Moreover Tyron - if he ever became an ally of Dany - is quite friendly towards Jon Snow, so might also influence Dany to accept Jon as a friend and ally) the Martel can be pissed off and leave Dany's Coalition, with a great damage for her.

Well, if the Martell are really loyal they must accept Dany's will to have Jon by her side:he would be her only family, the son of her beloved dead brother, her potential heir(if she's really barren) and she will probably want him by her side because her 3 dragons will like his blood, furthermore Doran Martell knows that Rhaegar was unfaithful to Elia besides he still want "fire and blood", so I don't think he'll hate Jon, especially if he marries Arianne ;)

[Faint]

- Second: if Jon Targaryen parentage is proven and then revealed to the world, I think this could cause troubles for him and Dany. If Jon is a - bastard - son of Rahegar he is the living proof of Rahegar being unfaithful to Elia... Betrayal that - if true - was the cause of Robert's rebellion and then of Elia death. So I think that the Martel won't be so kind with Jon if he will ever became Jon Targaryen... First of all they will never recognize him as a true Targaryen but only as a bastard. Secondly if Dany decides to recognize him as a Targ and maybe as her heir presumptive or even husband (she is really linked with her family heritage, and now she thinks of being the last Targ... Find a new Targ will make her quite happy... Moreover Tyron - if he ever became an ally of Dany - is quite friendly towards Jon Snow, so might also influence Dany to accept Jon as a friend and ally) the Martel can be pissed off and leave Dany's Coalition, with a great damage for her.

Not exactly in favor of this resolution myself, and uncertain if it will come to this point anyway, but what if Jon married Arriane as a form of re-compensation? Assuming that R + L = J, that would bind Dorne to House Stark and House Targaryen in one stroke, likely the two strongest houses in any scenario where Jon becomes king or king-to-be.

[Targaryen loyalist]

Well, if the Martell are really loyal they must accept Dany's will to have Jon by her side:he would be her only family, the son of her beloved dead brother, her potential heir(if she's really barren) and she will probably want him by her side because her 3 dragons will like his blood, furthermore Doran Martell knows that Rhaegar was unfaithful to Elia besides he still want "fire and blood", so I don't think he'll hate Jon, especially if he marries Arianne ;)

Yes I think that Doran is a quite reasonable man, and a Jon+Arianne marriage would settle things forever (even maybe for the North, not only for Dany's cause). But a J+A marriage is such a great idea (I also think that Arianne would quite like Jon... a strong, savage and mysterious fighter) that Martin would never let it happen :laugh: .

[Armand Gargalen]

But the identity of Jon's father is never questioned in the books to begin with. The mystery is supposedly who his mother is, and not who his father is. So if there's no mystery or question about the fact that Jon's father is Eddard Stark, then GRRM wouldn't have to avoid spoiling anything, simply because there's nothing to be spoilt - we learn that in the first chapter of the first book.

And I honestly doubt that GRRM wouldn't have just dispelled a theory, no matter how popular among fans, that is completely without ground and will never become an issue in the story.

In the appendix of AGOT clearly says that Jon Snow is Ned's son. Not that I believe that is any more than the "official Westerosi" truth, I support the R+L=J, but that makes whatever is said in the TV series promo not an issue at all.

[Whatever]

wow.. the thread is not sticky anymore.

(i know, im captain obvious.. im just surprised)

[KingSnow]

wow.. the thread is not sticky anymore.

(i know, im captain obvious.. im just surprised)

And so we must keep on bumping this to the front page!!!

[Whatever]

And so we must keep on bumping this to the front page!!!

lol, now it's sticky again :D

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

You know a conversation deserves to be stickied when the last four comments are about its stickied status.

[KingSnow]

You know a conversation deserves to be stickied when the last four comments are about its stickied status.

All right, fine, to get back on topic...

The argument that Jon's parentage (at least his father was revealed by the stars of the series holds no wait. Didn't Martin say that no one involved with ther HBO series knows the ending? (or at least few people) I don't rember where I saw this, so for all I remember this can be total crap.

[Ecthelion]

All right, fine, to get back on topic...

The argument that Jon's parentage (at least his father was revealed by the stars of the series holds no wait. Didn't Martin say that no one involved with ther HBO series knows the ending? (or at least few people) I don't rember where I saw this, so for all I remember this can be total crap.

I was under the impression he told D&D so that they could be sure to not contradict it during the earlier seasons. Confuse, lie, and distract, yes. But contradict no.

[Whatever]

I was under the impression he told D&D so that they could be sure to not contradict it during the earlier seasons. Confuse, lie, and distract, yes. But contradict no.

I'm pretty sure he said he told D&D, but i can't provide any refence. But IMHO, it's just logical

[Mandurang]

Two points that I want to raise (maybe they were already discussed, but ten threads are too much).

If L+R=J is true (and I doubt it) then two ideas come to my mind:

- First: Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy that - if I recall correctly - is in Dorne. This makes me think that maybe Doran and the other Martel know something about the ToJ events. Even if they just know that Lyanna was pregnant it must have been quite easy for them to connect the "mysterious" Ned Stark bastard with Lyanna's child. So I think that maybe also the Dornish know the truth about R+L=J, and if this theory is correct maybe it will be Quentyn and not Howland Reed to reveal the truth (maybe to Dany herself).

The Tower of Joy is close to, or in, the Mountains of Dorne. The seven of the Kingsguard at the time were Barristan Selmy, Lewyn Martell, and Jon Darry, north in command of forces at the Trident; Jaime Lannister, more or less a captive at King's Landing; and the three at the ToJ, Gerold Hightower, LC, Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne. Presumably those that knew about the real events that surrounded Lyanna and Rhaegar were the last three. Therefore, the ToJ's location does not mean Doran, Oberyn, and much less Lewyn Martell had any sort of knowledge about the events that transpired, or what they meant. The Kingsguard are sworn to keep the blood royal's secrets, after all. The only one I see having guessed what may have happened is Doran, but he probably does not have any actual knowledge.

[CornBaller]

Shouldn't somebody put a link to the onld R+L=J thread?

just foreshadowing, IMHO. There are a lot of sentences in the books that looks like foreshadowing if you read them "after". Also, there are at lest four or five phrases hinting/ foreshadowning/ referring to R+L=J.. and one of them is spoken by Robert! I don't think robert might have known ;)

I really don't think King Robert could have known. Actually, logically it doesn't make sense for Robert to know. I think the whole "promise" was to keep Baby Jon safe, and to do so Ned would need to keep his nephew's dragon blood a secret. If Robert would have found out.... lets just say there would be another stain on the walls of Maegor's.

[Whatever]

of course robert didn't know :) ..but GRRM did it.

If this does make sense, GRRM is the one who makes the characters talk, so I think it was just a foreshadowing on his part. It's like LF says something about the 5-years gap. He couldn't have known, but GRRM knew.

[nevermore]

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones#/game-of-thrones/about/video/house-targaryen-feature.html/eNrjcmbO0CzLTEnNd8xLzKksyUx2zs8rSa0oUc-PSYEJBSSmp-ol5qYy5zMXsjGyMXIyMrJJJ5aW5BfkJFbalhSVpgIAXbkXOA==

if you watch the targryen trailer or whatever, notice when it comes to GRRM he says Dany and Viserys are the last of their house, i don't know if that is significant but it could a hint to disprove this theory.

[Edward the Great]

I don't believe she is infertile at all.

This isn't the Twilight series. Martin does not create drama by making you think something is true only to find out it isn't true after all.

There is only one way I can think of Dany bearing a child. Life can pay for life. She bears a child to term and dies in childbirth.