The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread, Part X

[iamthedave]

I think that Ned kept it secret because of what had happened to Ella and the children during the sack of KL. Robert tacitly (if not directly) approved of the murders of the children and Ned obviously did not. They are still arguing about it all the years later when Robert is discussing killing Visarys and Dany.

Howland Reed and Ned's most trusted go to the TOJ to get Lyanna. Ned knows or at least strongly suspects that she was "Abducted" willingly and that she has a child. Knowing what Robert will do, he goes there in secret. It makes sense to me. :) Of course fans plan and GRRM laughs, or something.

I really find this theory to be... questionable.

This would imply that Ned strongly suspected Lyanna's death was completely accidental, not in any way Rhaegar's fault, and yet he willingly followed Robert into a rebellion that killed half their friends, ripped their realm apart and ultimately destroyed both of them.

Something BAD happened to Lyanna. All this about some sort of romance with Rhaegar just makes Robert's rebellion look increasingly ridiculous. Her death catalyzed the whole thing. Do you think Ned the honourable would have gone to war if he suspected there was no cause to do so?

[Desch]

I really find this theory to be... questionable.

This would imply that Ned strongly suspected Lyanna's death was completely accidental, not in any way Rhaegar's fault, and yet he willingly followed Robert into a rebellion that killed half their friends, ripped their realm apart and ultimately destroyed both of them.

Something BAD happened to Lyanna. All this about some sort of romance with Rhaegar just makes Robert's rebellion look increasingly ridiculous. Her death catalyzed the whole thing. Do you think Ned the honourable would have gone to war if he suspected there was no cause to do so?

Not really, the rebellion started after Aerys killed Rickard,Brandon and the Arryn heir (for no good reason I might add) and wanted Jon Arryn to extradite Robert and Ned to be killed as well. There was only rebellion or exile as options for them. And after killing their siblings there was no other option if they wanted to survive.

I think, the more interesting question here is, whether Ned (or someone other) knew what happened to Lyanna or what the circumstances of her disappearance were (if she went willingly and why).

[Sera dy Relandrant]

Would Robert really have killed Lyanna's son if he found out, even if it was Rhaegar's?

[chris.t.]

Not really, the rebellion started after Aerys killed Rickard,Brandon and the Arryn heir (for no good reason I might add) and wanted Jon Arryn to extradite Robert and Ned to be killed as well. There was only rebellion or exile as options for them. And after killing their siblings there was no other option if they wanted to survive.

Yes. This. Let's not forget that we already have a king that is thought to be at very least eccentric, if not "mad," His son is highly thought of, and then goes and does something completely unfathomable - kidnapping the daughter of a great house leader who is betrothed to another great house leader.

For those leaders who were tolerating the mad king with the expectation that the son would be better, that may have been the point where enough was enough. In one act Rhaegar turned four of the seven great houses against him. The son looked to be just as mad as the father, maybe madder.

Of course the father then threw napalm on the bonfire, literally, by giving the Starks, Arryns, and Baratheons no choice but to rebel. What was a crisis of confidence in the crown turned into a civil war.

[Masha]

I really don't believe this (even if it's meant ironic ). Ned is too honorable to kill the servants just for the sake of killing them (and the secret). And the servants (the women for sure) wouldn't be that stupid to went after Ned with sticks, knives and rocks if he just killed three of the strongest (and THE ''strongest'') warrior in the seven kingdoms.

As said before, the question is how and why they would have kept Lyannas pregnancy a secret. In the end, it is obvious because Ned wanted to protect the child. But to the point of Rhaegars death there was no point in hiding it. And if it was consensual (what most of us assume) it's even less likelier to hide the fact away. And there should have been a at least dozens of people (servants, guards, their families (yeah gossip)) who knew she was pregnant.

I really would like to know, where, when and how, Ned found out about Lyanna and the ToJ. It's possible from a prisoner, but I don't believe it in such an ''epic'' story to be so trivial. A good possibility could be Ashara (do we know that she was at storms end? I can't remember) even if I find it a little to overdramatical for her to commit suicide just because she then would've been responsible for her brothers death. What did she thought would happen in the first place? So I think it could be something else.

Robert is an idiot, but someone has mentioned it before. For the story of Neds bastard (9 Months pregnancy+a few months) to be believable she should've been in Neds company for awhile. Or if my Timeline is correct, he must have been conceived as Robert and Ned were still fighting/travelling together. (Correct me,if I make a wrong assumption). So maybe he really knew her.

What popped in my head on reading the comments. Could it be Ned knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar running off in love together (her being pregnant) when he was in KL? And was also because of this knowledge extremely pissed at the murder of Rhaenys, Aegon (and Elia)? Because he found out what Robert would have done to Lyanna (or surely to her child)? I don't really think so.

The point, that Ned went very fast only with his most trustet people hints that he knew at that point what to expect at the ToJ. There would be no army, and therefore he just needs a few men. And from his dreams (I know, this is no real evidence) we never get a scene where he is surprised to find her in her state (bed of blood). Maybe it didn't mattered to him but it sounds strange as we know he reached her just shortly before her death.

And, on the other hand, he must have found someone at the ToJ or in the near vicinity who took care of Jon until his bastard story would be believable (at least get him to Wylla). It would be very strange if he met up with the rest of the army (other people), a dead Lyanna on one side and a newborn child in his arms on the other. Even the idiots (Robert) could count 1 and 1 together.

Not sure about your timeline accuracy.

From what I remember Ned wasn't there at Trident and he first run to ToJ to get Lyanna. After her death, Ned hears about death of Rhaegar and Lannister defection, runs back to King's Landing where he hears of murder of Rhaegar's children and basically runs into Jaime immediately after murder of Aeris, with Aeris' body on the floor and Jaime sitting on the throne. There might be some disrepancies, but I am pretty sure that at the time the scene at TOJ plays out Ned and Lyanna are not aware of Rhaegar's children deaths. Not really sure about Rhaegar though

[KyleLitke]

Not sure about your timeline accuracy.

From what I remember Ned wasn't there at Trident and he first run to ToJ to get Lyanna. After her death, Ned hears about death of Rhaegar and Lannister defection, runs back to King's Landing where he hears of murder of Rhaegar's children and basically runs into Jaime immediately after murder of Aeris, with Aeris' body on the floor and Jaime sitting on the throne. There might be some disrepancies, but I am pretty sure that at the time the scene at TOJ plays out Ned and Lyanna are not aware of Rhaegar's children deaths. Not really sure about Rhaegar though

Nope. Ned WAS at the Trident, and we also know for a fact that the Tower takes place not only after the Trident and afte Kings Landing, but after Ned lifts the seige at Storms End too. In his dream, Ned tells the Kingsguard that he looked for them at the Trident, at Kings Landing, and at Storms End.

[SFDanny]

I really find this theory to be... questionable.

This would imply that Ned strongly suspected Lyanna's death was completely accidental, not in any way Rhaegar's fault, and yet he willingly followed Robert into a rebellion that killed half their friends, ripped their realm apart and ultimately destroyed both of them.

Something BAD happened to Lyanna. All this about some sort of romance with Rhaegar just makes Robert's rebellion look increasingly ridiculous. Her death catalyzed the whole thing. Do you think Ned the honourable would have gone to war if he suspected there was no cause to do so?

Sorry, but this is just a horrible misunderstanding of the timeline. Lyanna dies after after Storm's End is lifted, which is after about a year of rebellion, not before the rebellion starts. The war is not fought over Lyanna's death. It is fought over Aerys's demand for Robert's and Ned's heads to which Jon Arryn raises his banners in rebellion; all of which follows Rickard and Brandon's death, which follows Lyanna's "kidnapping." Ned has many reasons to fight Aerys that have nothing to do with whether or not he believes Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. There is a wonderful resource under the Citadel which answers the Frequently Asked Question "What Happened When During Robert's Rebellion?" and it answers all of this.

[Kaitscralt]

I'm sure this quote has been mentioned before, but I cannot read every past thread on this debate, so I am raising it again.

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." - Eddard POV GOT, 381

This is while Eddard is in a brothel looking for bastards of Robert. His thoughts in this chapter keep going back to Lyanna and the promise, and then he thinks of Rhaegar. He is basically saying, in my opinion, that despite both of the men fathering bastards (Robert's many, Rhaegar's Jon) he does not think that Rhaegar would be making them in brothels like Robert.

It's hard to explain my thoughts on this quote, but to me it basically cements the idea of R + L = J once and for all.

[KyleLitke]

Also, I'm of the belief that Ned knows (or at least strongly suspects) that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. But aside from the fact that there were many other reasons to go to war (Aerys DID kill his brother, his father, and demand the heads of both Ned and his best friend...), it doesn't mean Ned knew THEN. At that point he could very well have believed Lyanna was kidnapped, and didn't find out until he found Lyanna. We simply don't know.

[Rangers30]

I'm sure this quote has been mentioned before, but I cannot read every past thread on this debate, so I am raising it again.

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." - Eddard POV GOT, 381

This is while Eddard is in a brothel looking for bastards of Robert. His thoughts in this chapter keep going back to Lyanna and the promise, and then he thinks of Rhaegar. He is basically saying, in my opinion, that despite both of the men fathering bastards (Robert's many, Rhaegar's Jon) he does not think that Rhaegar would be making them in brothels like Robert.

It's hard to explain my thoughts on this quote, but to me it basically cements the idea of R + L = J once and for all.

Or maybe he's just thinking that if Lyanna had married Robert she would've been worried about it but with Rhaegar she wouldn't. Doesn't necessarily make Jon a bastard though.

[Kaitscralt]

Or maybe he's just thinking that if Lyanna had married Robert she would've been worried about it but with Rhaegar she wouldn't. Doesn't necessarily make Jon a bastard though.

Why would he be thinking of Rhaegar in a positive light compared to Robert?

Also, Prince Rhaegar was married.

[Lasair]

A thought on Targaryen genetics.

We all know that children of a union where one parent shows dominant traits and one recessive traits may end up displaying the recessive ones (4 out of the 5 children Ned and Catelyn had together have her red hair rather than his dark hair; I myself am the redheaded child of a dark/red union).

But this only works when the 'Ned' carries the recessive gene as well as the dominant.

Now, people of Valyrian descent have only been on Westeros for a few hundred years. AND many of them avoid outbreeding altogether.

So, are purple eyes a dominant trait? If they are recessive, then almost nobody bar the Targaryens and some Velaryons will have them, because so few people have any Valyrian ancestry at all. We know that Rhaegar had purple eyes. Even if purple eyes are a dominant trait, he is so inbred that he is almost certainly homozygous for this gene - i.e. carries no recessive eye-colour.

I'm wondering if there is any way to DISPROVE R+L=J based on eye-colour. It could be that purple is dominant over blue eyes and recessive to brown eyes, in which case Jon can still be Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar had two known children by another brown-eyed woman: Elia Martell.

Do we have any information about the eye colour of little Aegon and Rhaenys? If either of them have the distinctive purple eyes, then that almost completely nixes R+L=J, unless we can find some distant Velaryon ancestor for Elia.

[LadyMary]

Would Robert really have killed Lyanna's son if he found out, even if it was Rhaegar's?

Robert wanted (a.) to wipe out the Targaryen line and (b.) anything having to do with Rhaegar. He approved of the murder of Rhaegar's innocent children and the Princess Elia who presumably had nothing to do with the abduction of Lyanna. Over the objections of his best friend and Hand, Eddard, he sent assassins to kill Daenarys who at that point was a teenage girl with no means to challenge his rule. Even 15 years later, Robert dreamt of killing Rhaegar a thousand times. He expressed his bitterness that even though he killed Rhaegar, Rhaegar still won because he and Lyanna were together in death. Robert was not just righteously aggrieved that Rhaegar took his fiancee (whether she was willing or not) but he was insanely jealous of that Rhaegar had Lyanna... the fact that Robert expresses this jealousy and it seems to be the driving force behind Robert's hatred of Rhaegar, I think Ned would be safe to assume that Robert would want to destroy everything about Rhaegar, especially a child he fathered on Lyanna.

[jaeherys]

Assuming that R+L=J did anyone else appreciate Jon sending the child of Mance Rayder off with Sam?

Jon was a babe of royal lineage and was saved from a king who probably would've killed him.

Mance's kid is of "royal" lineage and was saved from a "king" that wanted to kill him.

[ExLibris]

Why would he be thinking of Rhaegar in a positive light compared to Robert?

Also, Prince Rhaegar was married.

And despite being married, I believe Rhaegar names Lyanna his queen of love and beauty at the tournament held at Harrenhal during the year of the False Spring, totally giving the cold shoulder to his wife.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

A thought on Targaryen genetics.

But this only works when the 'Ned' carries the recessive gene as well as the dominant.

Now, people of Valyrian descent have only been on Westeros for a few hundred years. AND many of them avoid outbreeding altogether.

So, are purple eyes a dominant trait? If they are recessive, then almost nobody bar the Targaryens and some Velaryons will have them, because so few people have any Valyrian ancestry at all. We know that Rhaegar had purple eyes. Even if purple eyes are a dominant trait, he is so inbred that he is almost certainly homozygous for this gene - i.e. carries no recessive eye-colour.

I'm wondering if there is any way to DISPROVE R+L=J based on eye-colour. It could be that purple is dominant over blue eyes and recessive to brown eyes, in which case Jon can still be Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar had two known children by another brown-eyed woman: Elia Martell.

Do we have any information about the eye colour of little Aegon and Rhaenys? If either of them have the distinctive purple eyes, then that almost completely nixes R+L=J, unless we can find some distant Velaryon ancestor for Elia.

1. GRRM has stated that Westerosi genetics are not necessarily the same as Earth genetics

2. Rhaegar's son had the traditional Targ coloring and his daughter looked more like Elia (no silver hair or purple eyes)

3. There are other examples of Targ/non-Targ pairings sometimes giving Targ traits, sometimes giving non-Targ traits, and sometimes a mix (Baelor Breakspear had brown hair & brown eyes)

4. Human eye color is not as simple to determine as most people think. It is a complicated polygenic process (more info) that we don't fully understand.

[Lasair]

1. GRRM has stated that Westerosi genetics are not necessarily the same as Earth genetics

2. Rhaegar's son had the traditional Targ coloring and his daughter looked more like Elia (no silver hair or purple eyes)

3. There are other examples of Targ/non-Targ pairings sometimes giving Targ traits, sometimes giving non-Targ traits, and sometimes a mix (Baelor Breakspear had brown hair & brown eyes)

4. Human eye color is not as simple to determine as most people think. It is a complicated polygenic process (more info) that we don't fully understand.

Evil Closet Monkey, I bow before your superior knowledge. :)

[Misthaufen]

I guess this is as good as a time to jump into a 26 page discussion and join the community... I was re-reading aGoT this morning and found this matter on point....

In discussing his objections to Jamie as Warden of the East early in aGoT, Ned discusses the timeline of the rebellion and his sister's death (while thinking about his "promise" to his sister). After Robert was wounded at the Trident, Ned raced to King's Landing, only to find the Lannisters who killed Rhaeger's wife and children, as well as Jamie on the throne.

When Rob arrives in KL, Ned tries to get Robert to condemn the murder of royal children. Instead, Robert celebrates their murder, causing Ned to leave in anger and finish the war in the South. It was only his Lanya's death that reconciled Ned and Robert.

Of course, by then, Ned has full knowledge that Robert will go to all lengths to murder any Targ available, not because they are a threat to his throne (which they may be), but because they are related to the man who "stole" the women he claimed to love.

Robert, whose loose morals and weak character Ned already knew well about by this time, was likely the angriest that he never got to bed Lanya, more than anything else and Ned likely knew this as well. Ned was never fighting because of his sister's abduction, even if that was Robert's primary motivation.

Ned went South, won the war, and found out the secret of his sister's location. The Kingsguard, defending the royal family (Jon), died even though Ned would have protected his sister and her son no matter what.

A think an interesting question is what would have happened to Lanya had she survived. Would Robert still have wanted to marry her after she was "raped" and abducted?

Would Lanya even agreed to such a marriage after Robert killed Rhaeger?

I think Lanya would have asked for Ned assistance to avoid any such marriage....

[Bajaz]

First of all,I would like to say something about Robert saying: Rhaegar rape Lyanna hundred times. Rhaegar was very handsome and heir to the throne,most desirable men in all westeros so I really dont believe in this rape part of the story.

On that tournament,cant remember which one,he makes her queen of beauty instead of his wife.

Surely they spend some time together and of course she could fall in love with him.

I dont think she loved Robert,she said to Ned that Robert will never change(crack some skulls and fuck girls).

Head of dragons can be Tyrion or mercenary captain (you know which one)and of course Jon and Dany.Did will he leave wall? Thats the question,maester Aemon had three opportunities to leave the wall.Jon had two,when Ned was killed and when Stanis offered him winterfell. 3Rd can be letter from Robb making him king of the north.This is my friend idea,dont think this will be much important because north had heavy losses.

Yes there is a lot of clues for this theory,my opinion is that Jon is dragon blood.

[damian]

i really don't understand the "i don't want the r + l = j thing to be true because it would ruin it!" line of thinking