Littlefinger Featurette

[mummer]

I'm confused where this assumption comes from that the actress playing Catelyn couldn't have been smoking hot when she was younger (and I think she's aged into a very lovely middle aged woman too).

No kidding. A lot of the comments about Catelyn/Fairley make me think that the commenters just haven't seen a lot of human beings over the age of 40 in real life, but are thinking of typical TV and movie casting where high school students are 25, their parents are 35, and all women have wrinkle-free faces until they're 60. (Or maybe they're from Los Angeles, where, as my L.A. friend put it, "plastic surgery is an airborne disease".) I mean, I've seen a lot of people here say not only that Fairley is unattractive-- which IMO is amazingly untrue, but at least is an arguable question of taste-- but also that she looks older than Sean Bean, which is flat out nonsense. Bean is a well preserved guy but he's still clearly pretty weathered. Time puts a few rough edges on all of us-- except maybe Cersei Lannister, who's still got a fairytale princess model look after having three kids, but I think we're meant to take that as an unusual thing; she and Jaime just lucked out genetically.

Also, the comment about how a "shallow" person like LF would only go for a "smoking hot" girl begs the question of what the standard for smoking hotness among shallow people in Westeros would be. LF did not grow up watching TV or reading Vogue. As a teenager in the Tully household, how many young women would he have even met?

[Ran]

Well said, mummer.

[mummer]

Also, what Thelonious and Gertrude said. Petyr seems like a gifted but massively insecure perpetual adolescent whose whole life has been geared toward making up for lack of status, proving himself cleverer than everyone, and making sure he'll never feel vulnerable again. For that kind of personality (and unfortunately I speak from personal experience) a Romantic obsession, with a capital R, is pretty much a requirement. And Catelyn makes a perfect target for it: she's smart, she's from the kind of family he thinks he should have had, and she's nice to him but not too nice, so he can keep feeding the fantasy of "one day she'll appreciate how great I am." And if Cat is not universally considered to be the most gorgeous thing ever, as Cersei is, so much the better for the fantasy; that means Petyr appreciates treasures that most people don't understand.

This isn't to say that he has any real understanding of Cat as a person, or that he would've had any idea what to do with her if he got her (any more than he has any idea what he would do with the Iron Throne if he got it). He's way too self-involved, and he probably would've been horrified to learn that Cat was really very different from him. Note that when he gets power over Sansa, he doesn't just immediately molest her, but neither does he spend any time trying to find out what she's like, or even asking her for information about her mother; he treats her like a blank slate and starts teaching her about his secret world of schemes and intrigues, to make her more like him. He wants someone who looks like Cat but is really an extension of himself.

I guess what I mean is that there's more than one way to be shallow. Littlefinger isn't a well-rounded or empathetic human being, but he's not a frat boy. He's a shallow dreamer.

[smegma]

I'm sorry, but I know plenty of people in their 40's that are still quite attractive and without the use of plastic surgery or botox. Jennifer Ehle is a great example of a well-aged (but seemingly natural faced) actress in her 40's. Fairley does look her age, which is totally fine. I just don't find her particularly attractive, and it's not because of a wrinkle here or there - I just don't like her face at all - eyes, cheekbones, chin, lips, etc. Her neck is much worse than any 45 year old that I know (and no I don't live in LA - and my mom is 65 and she has a better neck than Fairley). My own personal taste. Do I think she can do a great job? Of course! I think the producers decided to go with a very particular look for with Fairley because I am sure there are capable women her age that do look, in my opinion, more attractive - but they wanted to contrast Catelyn and Cersei, North and South (even if they are misrepresenting Cat's origins/story a bit). I'm fine with that direction - and I look forward to her performance - but I still don't think she's attractive, and I've seen younger pictures of her and she still wasn't beautiful to me. It's subjective, of course, and that's why it's my opinion.

[mummer]

Smegma, who are you arguing with? I said that the attractiveness part was a question of taste, and Mellisandra said that whether Cat was "smoking hot" as a teenager was a separate question from how she looks now (which is pretty much the same as what you said: "it's more about what used to be than what is"). We both also happen to think Michelle Fairley looks good (& are maybe emphasizing this in response to some of the extreme "hag" comments seen around here-- I wasn't responding to you specifically), but no one's trying to make you date her.

[smegma]

I am responding to the claim that people must have unrealistic expectations out of 40 something year old women because of Hollywood. I am comparing Fairley both to people that I know in real life and actresses that are her age. I think she looks her age. I don't think she looks attractive.

[mummer]

Well then you're responding to a claim I didn't make. I said that "a lot" of the comments sounded that way to me-- not that yours did or that that "must" be the reason. And I specifically said that the kind of comment I had a problem with wasn't "I don't think she looks attractive," but rather "She looks older than Sean Bean."

[smegma]

Well then you're responding to a claim I didn't make. I said that "a lot" of the comments sounded that way to me-- not that yours did or that that "must" be the reason. And I specifically said that the kind of comment I had a problem with wasn't "I don't think she looks attractive," but rather "She looks older than Sean Bean."

Okaaaaaay.....? I didn't say that you were directing the comments to me, I only offered a differing opinion. I don't think it's necessarily people's unrealistic expectations out of Hollywood that make her look unattractive - and I think she looks old because her neck is fucking haggard - and based on pictures of her as a younger woman, it looks like she has always had a rough looking neck. So when you combine a face that, in my opinion, is not pretty, with a neck that has a lot of wrinkles - people may think she looks much older than she is (although I do think her face looks her age). I also claimed that I think her "look" is intentional.

[mummer]

What I wrote probably could've been clearer and I didn't mean to derail the thread. My TV/LA remark was meant to be more about not assuming young Cat must have looked just like older Cat. It's great that your mother is so naturally young looking (so is mine, and she just turned 70!), and so is Cersei, but that doesn't mean that most people (especially in a medieval-ish world) don't age more dramatically. You really can't look at someone in middle age and know that they must have always looked like that, even if that might be true in Michelle Fairley's case.

Anyway, if I may take a different tack: Why should we think that Littlefinger is really attracted to Cat at all now? He doesn't make any romantic or sexual overtures to her as an adult, he just talks (mostly to Ned!) about how devoted he's always been, and he doesn't try to contact her after Ned's downfall (would've been tricky but I'm sure he could've thought of something).

As for teenage LF: even assuming you're right about the kind of shallow he is, I'm not sure there's such a thing as a 15-year-old heterosexual boy who would refuse to have a big crush on one of the only girls he knows, who's also one of the two girls he's ever kissed, who's also the girlfriend of the coolest kid in school, because she's not the prettiest girl ever. Not to mention that, based on Lysa's story, he may well think she actually slept with him.

[Padraig]

I am responding to the claim that people must have unrealistic expectations out of 40 something year old women because of Hollywood.

Well, I agree with mummer that it is a factor (some very good posts there). I can't see any other (reasonable) explanation for some people saying that Bean looks younger than her.

Sure, some women will look younger than her. Others older. But a lot of people have definitely a tendency to exaggerate her appearance in a negative way. And I think she is attractive.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

All excellent points, mummer. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, but I just can't help but think that Hollywood has really skewed some people's views of what women in their 40s can and often do look like when they allow themselves to age naturally. Speaking as a woman, (I'm in my 20s if it matters) it bothers that we clearly do have a double standard.

An actress gets a few wrinkles, and it seems like a disproportionate amount of people will decry her as old and unattractive, but a man gets a few wrinkles, and it's usually not a big deal. If anything it makes him more attractive to some and people throw around verbs like "distinguished". It's not the least bit of surprising to me that so many actresses resort to plastic surgery because of this. Not just actresses these days but regular women too.

[smegma]

I'm a woman in my mid thirties and yes, there's always a different standard for women and men (biologically men are still desirable later in life but women are not - again, just biological) - but I take a look at the women around me in their forties and I don't think they look any older, on average, than anyone in Hollywood - maybe less attractive features, but not any older. I'm certainly not talking about the freakishly young looking women or the weird looking plastic surgery faces of Nicole Kidman, etc. Fairley is a unique looking woman, and I'm sure that's part of why they cast her. She looks more weathered than Cersei, and they want to distinguish her life from one of King's Landing. Do a google search and I'm sure you'll find tons of "real" looking women in their 40's that don't have TONS of wrinkles or anything.

And for what it's worth, there's plenty of men in Hollywood with weird plastic surgery faces too.

Anyway, people are taking Fairley's looks quite personally. I'm fine with her casting because she seems like she'll be a good actress. I just don't think she's attractive, especially when you compare her with everyone else in the cast (and Ehle). The producers could have cast someone that looked more attractive but they didn't - and I'm sure that was on purpose.

[mummer]

Smegma, we get that you don't think she's attractive. You've said that quite a few times now. No one is denying you your right to an opinion. Please don't assume that other people are "taking it personally", and I won't assume that you are.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think Ms. Fairley is one of those people who can look remarkably different in different shots. Dig up the screenshot of her side-eying Robert during the royals' arrival and compare that to the one of her crying while looking right at Ned in Bran's sickroom, I wouldn't even think it's the same person! For me, what strikes about her isn't the wrinkles or anything themselves, it's that sometimes she projects a lot of weariness. I don't know, maybe my impression is essentially superficial, I'm really trying to analyze my impressions and question if they're problematic, and if they are perhaps someone can take the time to call me out on it, but I do think that there's more to it than just the fact that she doesn't look like a 20 year old starlet. I keep trying to figure out what it is that seems different to me and all I can say is that HBO's Cat seems smaller and more modest, less impressive.

But I kind of agree with smegma that HBO is maybe exaggerating that look on purpose to contrast her with Cersei, or just because they independently think it suits Catelyn. At least I wonder. I don't know how old this picture is, but she looks adorable. Here she is earlier this month after a performance of Remembrance Day at the Royal Court Theatre, that gives me such a different impression than some of the shots of her in the show. Plus she looks really badass here. ETA: Also badass!

Anyway, personally I always felt LF's fixation on Sansa spoke something about how his obsession was at least significantly superficial, but to me she looks pretty cute in her more flattering shots, and while "cute" isn't really how I envisioned the character it's not like it stretches credulity so much that the audience couldn't believe the obsession for the purposes of the plot. I still wish she came across as more grand, but that isn't necessarily all on Ms. Fairley.

[Abaddon]

I think the producers decided to go with a very particular look for with Fairley because I am sure there are capable women her age that do look, in my opinion, more attractive - but they wanted to contrast Catelyn and Cersei, North and South (even if they are misrepresenting Cat's origins/story a bit).

And yet, they went with Ehle originally. Has there been some suggestion that they dumped Ehle in favor of Fairley? Barring something of the sort I would have to assume that they chose Fairley because she did the best job reading for Cat after Ehle left the show, not because of her look.

[Lord of Starfall]

Her look is very much part of an audition. Plus, they can do an amazing amount to affect it with lighting, makeup, costuming, etc. I think we have to assume she looks just like HBO intended.

[smegma]

So the word is that Ehle dropped out herself - I hope that's the case, cause I think HBO would have been in the wrong to be rid of her. She is a beautiful and talented actress that could have embodied Cat's complex character - while still be realistically aged into her 40's. Be that as it may, yes they did recast Fairley in the role once occupied by Ehle. That doesn't mean they didn't decide to go in a slightly different direction when the producers looked at what they had. Nearly all of the relevant behind the scenes stuff discusses how Catelyn is very practical and how she has had to endure the cold north for so long. So it does seem that they are looking to portray Cat this way - but that doesn't mean that it was always their intention. Direction often changes after the pilot is viewed and people have been able to digest the material.

[smegma]

Oh and I just wanted to add that I gave some serious thought into Fairley's appearance tonight - and it occurred to me that I don't think she's "ugly". She's handsome. Just in a way that I don't personally care for, but I can see why people would see a beauty there - if that makes sense. Much in the way that I recognize that Vanessa Williams is beautiful without actually liking the way she looks. And it's definitely not cause of her age because I thought Servillia and Atia in Rome were attractive women and they were most certainly not typical Hollywood. Anyway, I realize these are people that are living and breathing and it's probably wrong to be so judgmental. I do look forward to her, and the rest of the cast in the series.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Well put, smegma. I can definitely see why some people may not care for how Fairley looks, and that's fine, but those who go as far to call her ugly do rankle me somewhat. Though they're no less entitled to their opinion than anyone else of course, that particular adjective does bother me.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Anyway, if I may take a different tack: Why should we think that Littlefinger is really attracted to Cat at all now? He doesn't make any romantic or sexual overtures to her as an adult, he just talks (mostly to Ned!) about how devoted he's always been, and he doesn't try to contact her after Ned's downfall (would've been tricky but I'm sure he could've thought of something).

I rather think this is the case. LF entirely transfers his obsession from Catelyn to Sansa. Partly that is because he can control her easier, but a huge part of it must be that Sansa looks more like the girl he fell in love with than Catelyn does herself these days.

It would be rather strange for Catelyn to be stunning. She's been aged up from the books, as have most characters. She doesn't have to work, as a noblewoman, but unlike (say) Cersei she does not have access to decadent beauty treatments and dozens of hairstylists(lady's maids) and dressmakers. That just isn't the Stark style (it's in the name.) Although they are rich they do not flash their wealth. It's not clear what sort of work Catelyn does day to day, but it probably involves at least a little riding or being outside in the harsh northern wind - which ages the skin.