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Jon + Dany = <3


An_Other

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Wholly agree here.

Nevermind my whisful thinking, i'm firmly sure Jon won't love Dany back

I hope you are wrong about this, I get the prophecy but I may be in the few that hopes most are wrong and Jon ends up with Val. But let's say he does end up with Dany what is there to prevent him from loving her?

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Well, Hizdahr wasn't particularly flamboyant, and she even thinks Hizdahr is comely once he shaves his side afros, but he doesn't seem to attract her. Maybe because she doesn't like what he represents in terms of Meereenese slavery, but then she has some big moral problems with Daario and his sellsword conscience (monster is the word she uses a few times), and with Khal Drogo's allowance of rape and murder in his khalasar, but seems attracted to them all the same.

So when she's constantly rejecting men of a type, all along the spectrum of attractiveness (from Hizdahr, to Quentyn down to Mormont) I think we've established she might not like the type. Especially since there are some great reasons for her not to like guys like Drogo and Daario, but does so anyway.

But does Jon really fit into the type that she has rejected? I don't think he is comparable to men like Hizdahr, Quentyn or Jorah at all. Jon is younger and better looking then Jorah, more manly than Quentyn and no where near as sleazy as Hizdarh. Dany is attracted to strong men obviously, and does Jon not fall into that category (LC at 16 has to count for something. Not to mention what else he will achieve before Dany even gets to Westeros)? Like you said, she has had moral issues with the ruthlessness of men like Drogo and Daario (maybe because it makes her reflect on her own dark side, the bad things she has done). So wouldn't Jon be exactly what she wanted in a man then? Someone who is strong but does not condone rape, cold blooded murder and those sorts of things? She seems like she could use that type of "ice" in her life to restrain her at times imo.

And her willingness to overlook the brutal side of Drogo and Daario does not mean that that is the aspect of their personality that she is attracted to. Dany loved Drogo after he stopped raping her and showed her his gentler side. And what she has with Daario is not love at all, it's escapism. She purposly chooses not to see him for what he really is (a ruthless sellsword), instead she builds him up in her mind as this loving man she can run away with to live a normal life, away from all the pressures of leadership she can't face or handle at the time. But deep down she knows that if she put off the crown he would not want her anymore. So she knows what they have isn't love, but nonethless she deludes herself anyway. But I think I am getting off topic with this stuff...

I don't think Daenerys is wild like Arya or Ygritte though. She is more like Sansa, more composed and more traditionally feminine. Both groups of women have significant strength, but it manifests itself differently, and I think Jon is too poisoned by some of the crap he's had to deal with regarding traditional southron ladies in his short life (Catelyn, Queen Selyse) to go for a type who has her titles announced loudly and talks about dragon blood. Daenerys will have her ducklings, and talk about how she's just a young girl ignorant in the ways of "blank" and Jon will likely form a first impression of her as another soft southroner.

Dany soft....really? Dany giggles like a little girl from time to time, but that doesn't make her like Sansa. Has Sansa killed many people? Conquered many cities? Hatched any dragons? And as far as I know there are no women in Westeros, North or South, who lead armies. Dany is no Southron lady, that comparison just is not apt at all.

Yes she is proud (and a little annoying to us readers) with her titles and dragon stuff, but like Tyrion said: How could she not be proud? She came from nothing. She grew up in exile (with an abusive older brother) and by all rights should have either died or been imprisoned with the Dosh Khaleen after Drogo died. Some males in Westeros might dimiss all that she has done and consider her a "soft lady", but Jon will not be one of them. He's not that type of person, if anything he admires women like Dany, who fight instead of 'sitting in a tower like some princess' as he calls it.

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So yeah. He thinks shes pretty good looking but he really doesnt know her so he feels little real attraction. If Dany walked up to him, Jon wouldnt be all "dfhdhffdjff hot chick!" he'd be like "Hmmm...hello *stoic face*" She would have to win him another way entirely. If GRRM could write that in a very believable way in the next book, then maybe i could get on the Jon/Dany ship. But until then, nyet.

As for Dany's side, i do not believe she would be impressed with Jon physically at all. She may be kinda cool with his stoic nature because Drogo was rather stoic in a lot of ways and Dany fell in love with him. But Drogo opened up to Dany once the language barrier was broken and she understood him better. Jon would have to open up to her, i think, for her to fall for him.

If this pairing is even gonna be a thing, GRRM has his work cut out for him.

I'll go ahead and make a separate post because my last one was very long (I should really work on being more concise... :spank: )

I agree, generally when two people fall in love with one another it involves 'opening up to one another' (not just physically! :drunk: ). The hard part for Martin will being getting them into a situation where they could intimately converse with one another without it feeling contrived. Once he gets them there though, they should have plenty to talk about. Aemon, the Mormonts, the Others, desire for family, dead lovers and on and on.

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But does Jon really fit into the type that she has rejected? I don't think he is comparable to men like Hizdahr, Quentyn or Jorah at all.

In demeanour? Certainly. In fact, I don't think it's an accident that Jeor Mormont takes such a shine to Jon, I think Jon reminds him of someone in particular before they made a very big mistake.

Jon is younger and better looking then Jorah, more manly than Quentyn and no where near as sleazy as Hizdarh. Dany is attracted to strong men obviously, and does Jon not fall into that category (LC at 16 has to count for something. Not to mention what else he will achieve before Dany even gets to Westeros)?

Like you said, she has had moral issues with the ruthlessness of men like Drogo and Daario (maybe because it makes her reflect on her own dark side, the bad things she has done). So wouldn't Jon be exactly what she wanted in a man then? Someone who is strong but does not condone rape, cold blooded murder and those sorts of things? She seems like she could use that type of "ice" in her life to restrain her at times imo.

It's not purely about strong men though, she likes extroverts. Someone like Jon will push someone away, even if they like them, unless they're forced to be with them (like Jon was with Ygritte to stop Mance killing them). Women find Jon sullen; Sansa makes a pretty blunt comment about how it's because he's a bastard in AGoT, and Alys Karstark talks about the same thing when she comes to the Wall.

Daenerys is very personable. She's all about making emotional connections with people. She loves it that she can run through her people and have them scream 'mother'. She likes Brown Ben Plumm, to her detriment, because he's a jolly guy who likes to laugh. She likes Missandei because she's sweet and friendly. She likes how bold and swaggering Daario is, even though he's kind of a dick. She has a weakness for people persons.

Dany soft....really?

I believe Jon would form an impression of her as a soft southerner, yes.

Dany giggles like a little girl from time to time, but that doesn't make her like Sansa. Has Sansa killed many people?

The only person Daenerys killed by her own hand was Khal Drogo, so I'm not sure that'd make her seem a BAMF if it came up.

Conquered many cities? Hatched any dragons?

Why would Jon find these things endearing? He wouldn't be attracted to someone who sent their army to sack a city, that's not what does it for him.

And as far as I know there are no women in Westeros, North or South, who lead armies.

Harma Dogshead, the Mormont women, Queen Nymeria, spearwives, the Targaryen dragon riders, Asha Greyjoy, etc.

Technically, Daenerys doesn't lead armies either.

Dany is no Southron lady, that comparison just is not apt at all.

I think Jon will very much view here as having the trappings of one.

Yes she is proud (and a little annoying to us readers) with her titles and dragon stuff, but like Tyrion said: How could she not be proud? She came from nothing. She grew up in exile (with an abusive older brother) and by all rights should have either died or been imprisoned with the Dosh Khaleen after Drogo died. Some males in Westeros might dimiss all that she has done and consider her a "soft lady", but Jon will not be one of them. He's not that type of person, if anything he admires women like Dany, who fight instead of 'sitting in a tower like some princess' as he calls it.

There's a distinction between pride and bluster, and I believe Jon would see Daenerys as having too much of the second. Look at how snarky he is about Selyse and her Queen's Hand.

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In demeanour? Certainly. In fact, I don't think it's an accident that Jeor Mormont takes such a shine to Jon, I think Jon reminds him of someone in particular before they made a very big mistake.

So you are comparing Jon to Jorah? A man who nearly ruined his house because of his obsession with a beautiful young woman?

I'm skeptical. Jon doesn't seem that befuddled by beauty.

You did some of the work for me here it seems :P

I've always thought of Jorah as a bit of a boy in a man's body. He was a lord who could have found any number of attractive (enough) women who would have loved him, given him children and a stable home life. Instead he sought out some fantasy with a beautiful, yet clearly troubled (else why would Lord Hightower consent to letting her be taken away to a place as remote as Bear Island? The family clearly did not like her), younger woman. He just reminds me of a child who constantly goes after the things he is not meant to have. It is a mark of immaturity. Jon doesn't have that problem imo, he has shown restraint that isn't usually characteristic of someone his age. If anything, he is the son Jeor wishes he had.

It's not purely about strong men though, she likes extroverts. Someone like Jon will push someone away, even if they like them, unless they're forced to be with them (like Jon was with Ygritte to stop Mance killing them). Women find Jon sullen; Sansa makes a pretty blunt comment about how it's because he's a bastard in AGoT, and Alys Karstark talks about the same thing when she comes to the Wall.

Daenerys is very personable. She's all about making emotional connections with people. She loves it that she can run through her people and have them scream 'mother'. She likes Brown Ben Plumm, to her detriment, because he's a jolly guy who likes to laugh. She likes Missandei because she's sweet and friendly. She likes how bold and swaggering Daario is, even though he's kind of a dick. She has a weakness for people persons.

You make a good point here. But as you also mention, this has been a weakness for her. After the disaster in Meereen I'm sure she too will start to recognize this. Ben Plumm, the Green Grace, Daario too probably...they will all have betrayed her before all is said and done. I imagine Dany will become much more distrustful, and a little sullen herself, after all this.

I believe Jon would form an impression of her as a soft southerner, yes.

We are just going to have to agree to (seriously!) disagree on this point. :cheers:

The only person Daenerys killed by her own hand was Khal Drogo, so I'm not sure that'd make her seem a BAMF if it came up.

OK, so she hasn't killed anyone with her own hands....she still rides a freaking dragon! That automatically qualifies her for BAMF/HBIC status.

Why would Jon find these things endearing? He wouldn't be attracted to someone who sent their army to sack a city, that's not what does it for him.

Endearing? No, but not exactly a sticking point either. I'm not even sure Jon would think about it honestly. No one else in the books seems too (there is also the fact that it happened thousands of miles away). I don't remember him pondering the morality of Robb's looting the Westerlands very hard either. Things like that just seem to be accepted practice to some extent in their world. It can be taken too far, however, like what Tywin's men did in the Riverlands. Dany on the other hand superficially just sacked and destroyed a slaver city. We as readers know that the consequences of her actions were much more complex than that (innocent people were harmed and died too), but why would Jon know that? Do you think he is against the idea of pillaging completely? You can't even say that about Stannis...the man who wants to outlaw prostitution. Stannis seems to be as moral a commander you can get in their world, someone who allows a little pillaging, but no rape or cold blooded murder. There are some acts of war that are just accepted in the society they live in. That is why they don't dwell on the morality of such thing any where near as much as we readers do. That's why I don't even think it will come up.

Harma Dogshead, the Mormont women, Queen Nymeria, spearwives, the Targaryen dragon riders, Asha Greyjoy, etc.

Technically, Daenerys doesn't lead armies either.

Served under Mance (and is dead); served under Robb; that was thousands of years ago; what do they have to do with leadership?; Dany is descended from them and now emulates them (sort of); served under her father and is now a prisoner.

The distinction here is that Dany is in charge. She doesn't fight in the battles, but if she says to travel through a sewer full of shit, her men do it. All of the other women you mentioned (save for Nymeria and maybe the Targ riders) derived their power from the men they served under. Dany has no boss or patriarch.

There's a distinction between pride and bluster, and I believe Jon would see Daenerys as having too much of the second. Look at how snarky he is about Selyse and her Queen's Hand.

Please don't compare Dany to Selyse.....it's just low <_<

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It's bad fan shipping.

Jon and Daenerys aren't each others types; Daenerys prefers extroverted and flamboyant men like Khal Drogo and Daario Naharis. Jon prefers tomboyish women like Ygritte, Val and Arya (not saying he's attracted to Arya, but the fact he has a closer relationship with her than with Sansa demonstrates who he's going to click better with). Also the fact that they're aunt and nephew is pretty creepy, and since their relationship would have to effectively be established in a single book (because I doubt Daenerys is returning to Westeros before book 7) it'll also look really slapdash.

So when you see people proclaiming they'll end up together, it's not because, so far as we know, they'd be especially compatible or happy with each other, it's because hey why not? The guy and the girl have to end up with each other, right?

Targs are polygamist and have always married their brothers or sister, and it is accepted in Westeros, so that is not a hinder for them to be together.

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Targs are polygamist and have always married their brothers or sister, and it is accepted in Westeros, so that is not a hinder for them to be together.

I imagine it would be for Jon, should he find out that she is his aunt. He hasn't been raised a Targ, he'd carry the Stark values when it comes to marrying family.

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I imagine it would be for Jon, should he find out that she is his aunt. He hasn't been raised a Targ, he'd carry the Stark values when it comes to marrying family.

That is if he really is R+L, we do have evidence that this might be true, But I still secretly want jon to be Ashara/Ned or Brandon or just a bastard of a stark.

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So you are comparing Jon to Jorah? A man who nearly ruined his house because of his obsession with a beautiful young woman?

I'm comparing Jon to Jorah pre-Lynesse, yes.

You did some of the work for me here it seems :P

I've always thought of Jorah as a bit of a boy in a man's body. He was a lord who could have found any number of attractive (enough) women who would have loved him, given him children and a stable home life. Instead he sought out some fantasy with a beautiful, yet clearly troubled (else why would Lord Hightower consent to letting her be taken away to a place as remote as Bear Island? The family clearly did not like her), younger woman. He just reminds me of a child who constantly goes after the things he is not meant to have. It is a mark of immaturity. Jon doesn't have that problem imo, he has shown restraint that isn't usually characteristic of someone his age. If anything, he is the son Jeor wishes he had.

Jon's story might not have ended vastly different to that of Jorah's. Remember, he fell for a girl too, and when he was with her, he brought dishonour on himself, and shamed his vows for love.

You make a good point here. But as you also mention, this has been a weakness for her. After the disaster in Meereen I'm sure she too will start to recognize this. Ben Plumm, the Green Grace, Daario too probably...they will all have betrayed her before all is said and done. I imagine Dany will become much more distrustful, and a little sullen herself, after all this.

I dunno, she might also decide since she'd had her "three treasons", she can be more trusting.

OK, so she hasn't killed anyone with her own hands....she still rides a freaking dragon! That automatically qualifies her for BAMF/HBIC status.

It's cool, but Jon doesn't really have a dragon fetish like Tyrion.

Endearing? No, but not exactly a sticking point either.

So it's not really relevant to whether Jon will fall for her or not.

Served under Mance (and is dead);

Harma Dogshead was a raider who had her own war band long before Mance united the Free Folk.

served under Robb;

But also independently, it's a Northern trope that Mormont women fight off raiders and sleep with bears. The Head of House Mormont is a woman.

that was thousands of years ago;

Right, but it's part of Westerosi culture, which is going to mean the idea of a warrior woman isn't a revelation to Jon, and given he's heard stories of Nymeria, of brave Danny Flint, of the women of Bear Island and his sister Arya, he's not going to really view Daenerys as a particularly martial woman.

what do they have to do with leadership?; Dany is descended from them and now emulates them (sort of); served under her father and is now a prisoner.

The distinction here is that Dany is in charge. She doesn't fight in the battles, but if she says to travel through a sewer full of shit, her men do it. All of the other women you mentioned (save for Nymeria and maybe the Targ riders) derived their power from the men they served under. Dany has no boss or patriarch.

Harma Dogshead doesn't derive her power from Mance. Nor do the women of Bear Island from Robb. Asha Greyjoy derives her power from her name and reputation, now that her father is dead. Jon's met enough spearwives to make Daenerys look like a traditional lady by comparison.

The problem with the point you're making here is that Daenerys is not a warrior. She's going to fall on the Sansa/Catelyn/Cersei end of the spectrum in terms of a woman, not physically powerful, but still formiddable, and Jon has had a rather mixed history with these sorts of women. He has been shown to much prefer women cut from the Arya/Ygritte/Val/Mormont women cloth.

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Targs are polygamist and have always married their brothers or sister, and it is accepted in Westeros, so that is not a hinder for them to be together.

I don't think either Jon or Daenerys have a particular desire to enter into an incestual relationship TBH.

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I'm comparing Jon to Jorah pre-Lynesse, yes.

Jon's story might not have ended vastly different to that of Jorah's. Remember, he fell for a girl too, and when he was with her, he brought dishonour on himself, and shamed his vows for love.

Actually the girl fell for him and he was compelled by circumstance to give in to her. Maybe he did love her after a fashion, but in the end he chose to go back to the NW (refusing to kill that old man was that choice in its own way). Jorah was so infatuated with Lynesse that he became completely lost to honor, shaming himself, his father and his house. I just don't see the similarities in Jon and Jorah that you are seeing.

I dunno, she might also decide since she'd had her "three treasons", she can be more trusting.

I'm getting the sense that you have an exceptionally low opinion of her ;)

So it's not really relevant to whether Jon will fall for her or not.

I should make the distinction more clear, I don't think the sacking part will be a relevant issue; i.e. he won't despise her for it. The fact that she is a dragon riding conqueror will be important...it will certainly get his attention, how could it not?

Harma Dogshead was a raider who had her own war band long before Mance united the Free Folk. But also independently, it's a Northern trope that Mormont women fight off raiders and sleep with bears. The Head of House Mormont is a woman.

Harma Dogshead doesn't derive her power from Mance. Nor do the women of Bear Island from Robb. Asha Greyjoy derives her power from her name and reputation, now that her father is dead. Jon's met enough spearwives to make Daenerys look like a traditional lady by comparison.

Yes, their awesome martial prowess will make Dany's conquering and dragon hatching look silly by comparison. If anything, most of these women wish they could achieve what Dany has (to be Queen in their own right). Asha certainly tried, but failed.

Right, but it's part of Westerosi culture, which is going to mean the idea of a warrior woman isn't a revelation to Jon, and given he's heard stories of Nymeria, of brave Danny Flint, of the women of Bear Island and his sister Arya, he's not going to really view Daenerys as a particularly martial woman.

The problem with the point you're making here is that Daenerys is not a warrior. She's going to fall on the Sansa/Catelyn/Cersei end of the spectrum in terms of a woman, not physically powerful, but still formiddable, and Jon has had a rather mixed history with these sorts of women. He has been shown to much prefer women cut from the Arya/Ygritte/Val/Mormont women cloth.

So essentially you are saying that Jon just likes women who can literally fight. As in pick up a sword and give him a run for his money or something? Because it seemed to me that what he likes about these women is their spirit, how fierce they are. Dany may not be the type to pick up a sword and cut her enemies down like Arya or the Mormont women, but that doesn't make her any less a fighter (in the metaphorical sense of the term). And for that reason, she is exactly Jon's type imo.

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Actually the girl fell for him and he was compelled by circumstance to give in to her. Maybe he did love her after a fashion, but in the end he chose to go back to the NW (refusing to kill that old man was that choice in its own way). Jorah was so infatuated with Lynesse that he became completely lost to honor, shaming himself, his father and his house. I just don't see the similarities in Jon and Jorah that you are seeing.

The details are different, but I do see them both as men who, in service of love, did dishonourable things.

I'm getting the sense that you have an exceptionally low opinion of her ;)

I think she's a poor judge of character.

I should make the distinction more clear, I don't think the sacking part will be a relevant issue; i.e. he won't despise her for it. The fact that she is a dragon riding conqueror will be important...it will certainly get his attention, how could it not?

Yes, their awesome martial prowess will make Dany's conquering and dragon hatching look silly by comparison. If anything, most of these women wish they could achieve what Dany has (to be Queen in their own right). Asha certainly tried, but failed.

I'm just questioning these things as paths to Jon's affection in the short time they'll interact.

There would, at most, have a book to interact together. If they meet, and Jon falls for her because she's pretty and has a dragon, I'll be very dissapointed in GRRM, because it'd be the most slapdash relationship in fantasy since Rand and Elayne in Wheel of Time. Good relationships take time to develop, and sometimes opposites attract (Jaime and Brienne for instance) but not in the eleventh hour in the final book.

So essentially you are saying that Jon just likes women who can literally fight. As in pick up a sword and give him a run for his money or something? Because it seemed to me that what he likes about these women is their spirit, how fierce they are. Dany may not be the type to pick up a sword and cut her enemies down like Arya or the Mormont women, but that doesn't make her any less a fighter (in the metaphorical sense of the term). And for that reason, she is exactly Jon's type imo.

She has spirit, but I don't think she has the wildness Jon likes. Sansa and Catelyn also have spirit, Cersei has spirit, but spirit isn't necessarily what I'm referring to.

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If this kind of relationship between Jon and Dany occurs, I will probably burn all my aSoIaF material.

But if Dany falls for Jon and Jon refuses her and she becomes even madder, I think I might buy all the books again in leather covered golden print. :leaving:

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The details are different, but I do see them both as men who, in service of love, did dishonourable things.

What did Jon do in the name of love that was so dishonorable? His decision to march South for his sister at the end of ADWD might be one of them, I'll grant you, but I would not compare Jon's love for his sister to Jorah's obsession with these younger women.

I think she's a poor judge of character.

Oh, I can certainly agree with you there. I hope she gets better at it, but who knows...

I'm just questioning these things as paths to Jon's affection in the short time they'll interact.

There would, at most, have a book to interact together. If they meet, and Jon falls for her because she's pretty and has a dragon, I'll be very dissapointed in GRRM, because it'd be the most slapdash relationship in fantasy since Rand and Elayne in Wheel of Time. Good relationships take time to develop, and sometimes opposites attract (Jaime and Brienne for instance) but not in the eleventh hour in the final book.

I worry about that too. It's actually one of the reasons (amongst others) that I don't believe the series will finish with just 2 more books. If a Dany/Jon romance is in the works, I have to believe GRRM has been planing/thinking about it from the start. Whatever he's got, I imagine it will be good. He hasn't let me down so far.

She has spirit, but I don't think she has the wildness Jon likes. Sansa and Catelyn also have spirit, Cersei has spirit, but spirit isn't necessarily what I'm referring to.

We seem to be getting very abstract here. So what do you mean exactly?

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What did Jon do in the name of love that was so dishonorable? His decision to march South for his sister at the end of ADWD might be one of them, I'll grant you, but I would not compare Jon's love for his sister to Jorah's obsession with these younger women.

He also tries to desert at the beginning of AGoT, where some pretty tangible parallels are drawn between him and Jorah;

It had been hard to abandon [Longclaw], but Jon was not so lost to honor as to take it with him. Even Jorah Mormont had not done that, when he fled in disgrace. Doubtless Lord Mormont would find someone more worthy of the blade. Jon felt bad when he thought of the old man. He knew his desertion would be salt in the still-raw wound of his son’s disgrace.

I worry about that too. It's actually one of the reasons (amongst others) that I don't believe the series will finish with just 2 more books. If a Dany/Jon romance is in the works, I have to believe GRRM has been planing/thinking about it from the start. Whatever he's got, I imagine it will be good. He hasn't let me down so far.

I tend to think he won't do it honestly, since he likes to set romances between POV characters on slow boil.

We seem to be getting very abstract here. So what do you mean exactly?

That Jon will, at least initially, project women like Catelyn and Cersei on Daenerys if he meets her. Kind of like how when he meets Ygritte, he thinks pretty quickly "Arya", and when he meets Gilly, he thinks "Sansa".

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