The Dagger and the Coin - SPOILER THREAD

[RedEyedGhost]

Because the other thread is getting a lot of coded posts, and this book deserves its own thread.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Okay,

Questions I'm left with. Why did the Dragons fall. How did they fall? What's up with the priesthood? What is their goal? Why did Kit flee from them and how do they do what they do?

[CryHavoc]

My questions, imported from the last thread, are how Cunning Men actually work, and if there's any similarity to what the priests do. Also, whether we've explicitly heard that the Cunning Men also have something weird with their blood. I thought they must, because of the thumb slicing stuff, but Geder didn't make the leap from "blood corruption" to magic when doing his translation, so I don't know. Or are the workings of the bank and the Cunning Men so exotic in the empire that he wouldn't know?

Edit: Scott, my guess is that one of the dragons made or discovered the source of power the priests draw on to fight a sibling, but that ultimately "the end of all doubt" is what helped them fall. Maybe not the first cause, since there was already civil war, but a pretty important blow. In the aftermath, the priests flee over the mountains to wait until the world forgets them, so they can come back and kick ass.

As for why he fled...at least in part because they want to, you know, eat the world. I'm sure it's way more complicated than that, but it's one stated reason and I think it's probably true, if incomplete.

[beniowa]

I just finished it yesterday afternoon and it was pretty good. It didn't quite grab me as The Long Price Quartet did, but then it didn't completely grab me right off the bat either. There's still a few books to go in this series. I liked Abraham's take on epic fantasy, combining politics and economics and with less emphasis on warfare.

Marcus and Cithrin were both interesting characters, but the one that really stands out is Geder. I'm honestly not sure what to think about him. He's basically a decent person, one who would have made a nice, if quiet scholar in another time and place. But he has the misfortune of being a tool and pawn for others and this brings out a dark side that retaliates when he feels slighted or humiliated. I mean, he sets fire to an entire city, killing ten thousand people, all basically in fit of pique. And now he's going to tear apart the Antean court just because he can. He'll be one to watch.

A few notes:

- I'm interested in more background information as well. Especially on the fall of the dragons, how they created the races, and of the abilities of the Cunning Men.

- We know that Basrahip and the priests of the spider goddess have the ability to discern truth from lies. Near the end in Camnipol, it seemed that they also have the ability to influence or impose their version of truth as well. Or at least that was the impression I got. It seems harder to do with someone who has a strong will or very strong emotional state.

- It also seems clear to me that Basrahip planned all along to bring his priests and his god out of the wilderness. The ultimate goal is still too murky to see just yet though.

[CryHavoc]

Yeah, we know that they can make themselves believed. That's why Kit always talks in maybes and probablys and "I think"s. I assume that repeated assertion that the Goddess came from before the dragons instead of being made by them is one such "truth", since Geder completely flips on it when Basharip says it, even though his book says otherwise.

I agree that they were always planning on leaving at some point. I think that Geder just presented the perfect opportunity. A scholar with information on the outside, a place in court in the empire, spiteful and willing to do terrible things to avenge any slight against him, and weak-willed enough for them to get him to believe whatever they want--and thus do whatever they want, as long as they keep "helping" him.

[beniowa]

I had actually forgotten that bit about Kit when he explained that. I kept wondering why I had the nagging sense that I should have expected their influencing ability. Duh.

[kcf]

I just posted my review. Below is an excerpt. This is good, but clearly just the opening chapter, setting up lots of questions and such but providing little in the way of answers.

One of the aspects that I enjoyed most in The Dragon’s Path is Abraham’s selection of the characters he tells the story through. While most will (correctly) point to Cithrin and Marcus as the most developed, most sympathetic and likeable characters and Geder as the most intriguing in terms of what is to come, Dawson gets left out. Dawson represents the traditional, conservative force so common in epic fantasy – the status quo. He is an elitist noble who thinks of everyone else as less than human, he is a bigot, and he thrives in a male-dominated, testosterone culture that is reprehensible to modern sensibility. In court politics he commands a faction that is defending against a rival group of younger nobles seeking reforms such as more power in the hands of the farmers and such. The twist is that most fantasy these days tells the story from the point of view of the reformers while Abraham chooses to tell the story from the point of view of the conservatives. It’s a classic battle of progress versus the status quo and I love how Abraham forces the reader to cheer for the traditional bad guys.

In another slight deviation from traditional epic fantasy, Abraham embraces rather than discounts the power of economy. Throughout history, much of the power of society has resided in banks or their equivalent and Abraham honors this historical reality. Cithrin is the ward of a bank just about to achieve her adulthood and freedom – but events force her to flee her home and survive without direction. As the child of bank her only real world skills are banking, and use them she does. I love the importance that Abraham gives to the banks, even if it is only just realized in this opening chapter to the series.

...

For an epic fantasy, The Dragon’s Path is a bit short on battles and magic, but this is only the opening chapter of the quintet with the second book, The King’s Blood coming in 2012 (planned). The Dragon’s Path does not stand on its own and is similar in to The Fellowship of the Ring in that it is only the beginning of one great novel. This is the introduction and the promise of magic and battles to come is laid out and many questions have been raised with few answers. The Dragon’s Path wets the appetite but doesn’t deliver the meal. That is for later and I can’t wait.

Full Review

[SkynJay]

I would like to know how the races were split, since there was a line about the fall of dragons causing it.

I knew the apostate would be back, but had no idea it was Kit. No wonder I liked his character so much.

I dont really think Geder is a good guy at all, and would have been a bad man no matter what. He had a gather who truly seemed to love him and try to raise him right, including allowing him to do what he truly wants. I think he would have been a bully if he hadn't been the bullied, but that may just be my impression.

I loved, loved, loved this debut. Abraham, if you read this forum, you are now in my top 3 modern authors. Right up there with Martin and Pratchett. To follow up the Long Price with this makes me SO happy.

[Mr. X]

I dont really think Geder is a good guy at all, and would have been a bad man no matter what.

Geder certainly doesn't come across as a good guy, but I think it was more a matter of opportunity and circumstance that made him an actively bad guy. Left to his own devices, I imagine he would have been a person of little consequence.

Abraham, if you read this forum, you are now in my top 3 modern authors.

Good news! He does read this forum!

[CryHavoc]

Geder certainly doesn't come across as a good guy, but I think it was more a matter of opportunity and circumstance that made him an actively bad guy. Left to his own devices, I imagine he would have been a person of little consequence.

I can agree with the second part, but not the first at all, I don't think. Being set up to be humiliated by political rivals and then flipping the fuck out and burning down a city of 10,000 is the mark of a pretty actively bad guy. If he'd done nothing at all, the worst that would have happened would've been that he, too, couldn't hold the city, left in disgrace, and went back to his loving father and the activities he actually enjoys. Maybe he felt like circumstances pushed him to it, but if you can deliberately kill 10,000 people on an impulse to save face and get back at some bullies, in my book you're a flat-out awful person, and you'd still be an awful person even if you hadn't gotten that last nudge.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I can agree with the second part, but not the first at all, I don't think. Being set up to be humiliated by political rivals and then flipping the fuck out and burning down a city of 10,000 is the mark of a pretty actively bad guy. If he'd done nothing at all, the worst that would have happened would've been that he, too, couldn't hold the city, left in disgrace, and went back to his loving father and the activities he actually enjoys. Maybe he felt like circumstances pushed him to it, but if you can deliberately kill 10,000 people on an impulse to save face and get back at some bullies, in my book you're a flat-out awful person, and you'd still be an awful person even if you hadn't gotten that last nudge.

Yeah, I agree. Somebody who wasn't already a bad guy wouldn't have seriously entertained the notion of burning down the city in the first place. Had it not been for the various politicking back home, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to do something so horrifying, but he still would have been a lord at some point with servants and serfs and a lot of opportunity to cause misery. What made him seem like not such a bad guy at first was the fact that he was such a comic figure for a while, which made his self-absorption and pettiness seem basically harmless; but I wonder if that'll still be true on a second reading.

[pat5150]

Finished it earlier today. Liked the book, but I felt that the characterization was kind of weak. :worried:

Fascinated by the back story, though...

Patrick

[kcf]

The term I used for Geder in my review is sociopath.

I would like to know how the races were split, since there was a line about the fall of dragons causing it.

http://www.danielabraham.com/books-by-daniel-abraham/the-dagger-and-the-coin/the-dragons-path/an-introduction-to-the-taxonomy-of-races/

It doesn't answer all of the questions, but it's still pretty helpful. Would have made a very helpful appendix.

I knew the apostate would be back, but had no idea it was Kit. No wonder I liked his character so much.

When did you figure it out. I must admit that it took me a lot longer than it should (I was probably half-way through the book before I was convinced).

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

When did you figure it out. I must admit that it took me a lot longer than it should (I was probably half-way through the book before I was convinced).

I can't recall off-hand whether it was when Kit said "probably" at the end of a Marcus chapter, or if it was when Marcus pointed out that Kit never said anything more definitive than "I believe that..." I caught on pretty early, so I'd say whichever of those came first.

[CryHavoc]

When did you figure it out. I must admit that it took me a lot longer than it should (I was probably half-way through the book before I was convinced).

I figured it out when they troupe was putting on the play after getting to Porte Olivia (before the "maybe/probably/I believe" talk but long after the bandits), but mostly because I had been wanting to see the apostate again, asked on the main thread if we got to see him again, and then started reading some more, and I think that kind of jogged it for me. At that point I almost hit myself because I feel like I probably almost had it at the bandit altercation, but just kept barreling through because I was too into the book.

[BklynBlazer]

I loved the book. Daniel Abraham is still one of my 2 or 3 favorite authors.

The one thing I didn't like was how incredibly fast and easy Geder's journey to the east was. Yes, time passed that wasn't described. But come on, Geder is the first person with an interest in the Righteous Servant? And he was the first to piece together the pretty obvious location? This should have been fleshed out more, but maybe I missed something.

[Sunspear]

Is the Dragon's Path related to the Long Price Quartet, I thought they were separate but in the other thread I saw some people saying there were some related characters or something.

[SkynJay]

I loved the book. Daniel Abraham is still one of my 2 or 3 favorite authors.

The one thing I didn't like was how incredibly fast and easy Geder's journey to the east was. Yes, time passed that wasn't described. But come on, Geder is the first person with an interest in the Righteous Servant? And he was the first to piece together the pretty obvious location? This should have been fleshed out more, but maybe I missed something.

I actually liked this. Not every quest needs to be epic and take its own book. Geder was interested in these essays that most nobles scoffed at, and found a group that it seems was ready to be found. and I do think the order was looking to be found, the guide said something to the end of "took him to you like you asked"

[aidan]

Is the Dragon's Path related to the Long Price Quartet, I thought they were separate but in the other thread I saw some people saying there were some related characters or something.

Not related at all.

[SkynJay]

Wow. Thanks for the limk to the races, hope that is added to the next book.

The drowned will have to play a part later. Other thread said this series has been extended to five books. He will be able to go even deeper into all of this.