[BOOK SPOILERS] Do you think the HBO adaption will make certain characters more sympathetic?

[Solmyr]

No, it's unpossible, for the only character I am unsympathetic towards is Catelyn and let me tell you Michelle Fairley does not improve the character.

Tully widows (my bad, thats a spoiler :D) aside, I like all them other characters enough to love them had they all been played by Peter Dinklage.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

No, it's unpossible, for the only character I am unsympathetic towards is Catelyn and let me tell you Michelle Fairley does not improve the character.

You might be joking, but just in case you're not...

Catelyn is

...less sympathetic than Tywin Lannister?

...less sympathetic than Gregor Clegane?

...less sympathetic than Joffery Baratheon?

:stunned:

[Solmyr]

You might be joking, but just in case you're not...

Catelyn is

...less sympathetic than Tywin Lannister?

...less sympathetic than Gregor Clegane?

...less sympathetic than Joffery Baratheon?

:stunned:

I most certainly amn't.

Joffrey is the product of a megalomaniac, incest whore of a mother and a drunken fat brute, who never paid him any mind (perhaps because he's not even his father) ... yes, his father is in fact the Kingslayer *bows* I rest my case. Given these conditions, I believe Joffrey couldn't be more in character. He's unpredictable, which is always a good trait for any fiction character. Also, he dies, poisoned, clawing and tearing his own throat at his own wedding feast, which is a fitting end, considering his crimes against the people of Westeros (mostly King's Landing).

I know too little of Sir Gregor Clegane to judge him justly, but it seems to me he was an ever-diligent servant and bannerman to lord Tywin (of whom we shall speak in a minute), despite always being given the most dishonourable of duties. Pillaging, foraging, chasing after brigands, while other bannermen were capturing castles and winning themselves titles. He struck the first blow against the traitor Ned Stark, risking his own life, name and house, all in service of lord Tywin. He rooted out the Brave Companions from Harrenhall, got wounded, returned to King's Landing at the behest of his queen and fought a duel against one of the most dangerous men in Westeros (and the world), seeking to bring justice for the murder of his king. When he saw he was losing, he did not give up and die, but used his last strength to win the duel for his queen and murdered king. As a reward he spent an entire book screaming in the bowels of the Red Keep - even death is denied him. Another excellent character. Also, the entire account of him is written from what must've been his point of view.

Tywin Lannister ... you're not serious I hope? I can write thrice as much as I wrote about Joffrey and Gregor combined. He's Baelor the Blessed reborn.

Joffrey, Gregor and Tywin are all dead (in Gregor's case - perhaps undead). If only Catelyn had the decency to stay dead, the bitch. Not only is she brought back to life, she's found herself a pack of cronies to do her hangings. As of last she was repaying one of her only true friends and sworn knights by hanging her from a tree. In life she single-handedly caused most of the woes that befell the Seven Kingdoms (who kidnapped Tyrion and started it all, I ask? Ned could've been alive ...)

[serious]

I never believed the day would come when I'll need to be Joffrey's advocate, but we're speaking of characters and as such he was more entertaining that Catelyn. Furthermore, he occupied less screen-time and also stays dead. Gregor and Tywin I truly like (as characters). I don't even feel the need to justify Tywin, but I shall for Gregor. We've heard what a monster he is, but never actually seen him do anything monstrous. He's a brute and in the heat of battle he's no stranger to bloodthirst, like most men. But when Arya was captured by him, we didn't see him do any rape or torture, his cronies did. The only time he lifted a hand was to behead a woman who had hit one of the men raping her with a rock. Vargo Hoat would've maimed and tortured her, Gregor gave her a clean death. Tyrion fought beside him on the green fork and he was an able battle commander. He's also loyal and obedient.

[/serious]

[Brienne the Beauty]

You might be joking, but just in case you're not...

Catelyn is

...less sympathetic than Tywin Lannister?

...less sympathetic than Gregor Clegane?

...less sympathetic than Joffery Baratheon?

I think Catelyn gets a lot of hate because most of us don't personally know any machievellian statesmen, psychotic mass murderers, or sociopathic child kings, so we don't have much frame of reference for hating them. However, unfortunately a lot of people do know personally know bad (step)mothers, so I think she gets a lot of projected hate.

[Josiah Rowe]

[serious]

I never believed the day would come when I'll need to be Joffrey's advocate, but we're speaking of characters and as such he was more entertaining that Catelyn. Furthermore, he occupied less screen-time and also stays dead. Gregor and Tywin I truly like (as characters). I don't even feel the need to justify Tywin, but I shall for Gregor. We've heard what a monster he is, but never actually seen him do anything monstrous. He's a brute and in the heat of battle he's no stranger to bloodthirst, like most men. But when Arya was captured by him, we didn't see him do any rape or torture, his cronies did. The only time he lifted a hand was to behead a woman who had hit one of the men raping her with a rock. Vargo Hoat would've maimed and tortured her, Gregor gave her a clean death. Tyrion fought beside him on the green fork and he was an able battle commander. He's also loyal and obedient.

[/serious]

I'd say that bashing a child's head against a stone wall and then raping its mother is fairly monstrous. For that matter, burning your brother's face because he took a toy you didn't even want isn't exactly sympathetic. And we have been given no reason to doubt the accounts of those who said Gregor did these things.

[Solmyr]

I'd say that bashing a child's head against a stone wall and then raping its mother is fairly monstrous. For that matter, burning your brother's face because he took a toy you didn't even want isn't exactly sympathetic. And we have been given no reason to doubt the accounts of those who said Gregor did these things.

Ye and Jaime threw an 8-year-old boy, son of his host, under whose roof he was fucking his sister and queen, from a tower. Maybe it's slightly less gruesome than raping a woman while covered in her infant's gore, but I haven't seen that many "Jaime is a monster *waves pitchforks and torches*"-threads.

We speak of characters, characters each have a role to play, as Varys said once. If all were noble as Ned, imagine what the series would've looked like? Probably when they found out Dany is alive they would've sent for her and given her the crown ... and when the Others came they would invite them over for tea.

[Josiah Rowe]

Ye and Jaime threw an 8-year-old boy, son of his host, under whose roof he was fucking his sister and queen, from a tower. Maybe it's slightly less gruesome than raping a woman while covered in her infant's gore, but I haven't seen that many "Jaime is a monster *waves pitchforks and torches*"-threads.

We speak of characters, characters each have a role to play, as Varys said once. If all were noble as Ned, imagine what the series would've looked like? Probably when they found out Dany is alive they would've sent for her and given her the crown ... and when the Others came they would invite them over for tea.

That's fair enough, when considering the overall dramatic structure. But the original question wasn't whether characters would be more interesting, or more entertaining, but whether they would be more sympathetic. Jamie isn't very sympathetic in AGoT. We're able to sympathize with him later because of three things: 1) we see things from his point of view, 2) he is, to a certain extent, punished for his misdeeds, and 3) he begins to approach matters from a different perspective, and to behave in a different manner than he did when we first met him. Now, it's true that we don't ever see things from Gregor's point of view, but even if we did, there's no evidence that he ever regretted anything or changed his attitude.

It's one thing to say that Catelyn doesn't interest or entertain you as a character. It's quite another to say that someone like Gregor is more sympathetic.

[Solmyr]

That's fair enough, when considering the overall dramatic structure. But the original question wasn't whether characters would be more interesting, or more entertaining, but whether they would be more sympathetic. Jamie isn't very sympathetic in AGoT. We're able to sympathize with him later because of three things: 1) we see things from his point of view, 2) he is, to a certain extent, punished for his misdeeds, and 3) he begins to approach matters from a different perspective, and to behave in a different manner than he did when we first met him. Now, it's true that we don't ever see things from Gregor's point of view, but even if we did, there's no evidence that he ever regretted anything or changed his attitude.

It's one thing to say that Catelyn doesn't interest or entertain you as a character. It's quite another to say that someone like Gregor is more sympathetic.

And now we've finally completed the roundabout and returned to the original matter at hand :). I still hold to part of my initial statement, that Michelle Fairley would not make me more sympathetic towards the character of Catelyn Tully*. In the second part of the statement I said I like all the other characters more than the Tully widows (subconsciously I included Lysa, since she's a bitch too), which is true, because I dislike them as characters the most. But you are right that I do not sympathize towards all the characters I like.

*she was never a Stark, the bitch!

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I still hold to part of my initial statement, that Michelle Fairley would not make me more sympathetic towards the character of Catelyn Tully*. In the second part of the statement I said I like all the other characters more than the Tully widows (subconsciously I included Lysa, since she's a bitch too), which is true, because I dislike them as characters the most. But you are right that I do not sympathize towards all the characters I like.

*she was never a Stark, the bitch!

Uh, no you said nothing about what characters you like. You said the only character you are unsympathetic towards is Catelyn:

No, it's unpossible, for the only character I am unsympathetic towards is Catelyn and let me tell you Michelle Fairley does not improve the character.

So, sorry. It's not about who you like, though you tried to pretend that's what you were saying in your reply. If you really believe that Catelyn Stark is unsympathetic whereas Gregor Clegane is sympathetic I don't know what to say...

[Solmyr]

Uh, no you said nothing about what characters you like. You said the only character you are unsympathetic towards is Catelyn:

Tully widows (my bad, thats a spoiler :D) aside, I like all them other characters enough to love them had they all been played by Peter Dinklage.

If you really believe that Catelyn Stark is unsympathetic whereas Gregor Clegane is sympathetic I don't know what to say...

I do not believe Catelyn Tully is unsympathetic, my ego is not that big. I simply stated that I do not sympathize with her (here's the quote):

... for the only character I am unsympathetic towards is Catelyn ...

Nowhere have I said that she should receive less sympathy from the general public than Gregor or Lord Tywin. In my next post (the long one) I justified my affection for these characters and later I clarified that does not equal sympathy.

To sum it up:

(1) ... the only character I am unsympathetic towards is Catelyn ...

(2) ... I like all them other [other that the Tully widows] characters ...

[Tywin's bastard]

I think that the Lannister twins will be more sympathetic as we will not just see them through the eyes of their enemies. They will already have aspects from when we finally get to follow them as POV characters. Cersei and Jaime have their reasons for why they act like they do. They are by no means the most good people in the realm but they are certainly not evil either. They both are very much the products of their environment and Cersei has had rough dealings at several times of her life (probably most visible in the show by Robert treating her badly), which together with a strong drive to protect her children, makes her what she is. Jaime has a sense of honor but everyone now sees him as without and he's just giving people what they expect as he, contrary to his sister, is so strong in himself that he doesn't have to care. This will mostly be visible in the show by that we are told that he killed Aerys out of what he felt was a noble cause.

Sansa might also be more sympathetic to some just because the visual element might make her torments even worse. I don't really see why some people hate her so much just because she acts like she does, which is very reasonable for how she's been brought up (which made her naive) and how young she is. She does very little out of malice, she just fails to understand the impact of all her actions. She's actually less selfish than Arya, who always must have her own way, and I find that she's more interesting because Arya is much more the standard protagonist that's supposed to channel things the reader wants to be, which is a bit more shallow in my opinion.

I generally feel that the strongest aspect of A Song of Ice and Fire is that you can sympathize with all characters you get to know well enough to see their motivations.

[Abaddon]

She's actually less selfish than Arya, who always must have her own way

Well, that's an interesting comment. I am of the opinion that Sansa gets her way normally -- in other words, the things she is expected to do are the things she wants to do and naturally excels at. Arya on the other hand is expected to do the same things, but has no interest or evident aptitude for them. I'm not saying either is good or bad, just that Sansa gets what she wants so she doesn't act out against what she's supposed to do. Obviously that changes, and we can see that Sansa has no experience in standing up for what she wants to do ("must have her own way"), but appears to be developing that out of necessity.

Arya in the books is 9 and Sansa is 11. Kids are commonly going to act this way, it's very realistically portrayed. Poor Sansa is incredibly naive and when examining her actions (or lack of actions) you need to consider her age, and her pampered upbringing.

[Tywin's bastard]

Well, that's an interesting comment. I am of the opinion that Sansa gets her way normally -- in other words, the things she is expected to do are the things she wants to do and naturally excels at. Arya on the other hand is expected to do the same things, but has no interest or evident aptitude for them. I'm not saying either is good or bad, just that Sansa gets what she wants so she doesn't act out against what she's supposed to do. Obviously that changes, and we can see that Sansa has no experience in standing up for what she wants to do ("must have her own way"), but appears to be developing that out of necessity.

Arya in the books is 9 and Sansa is 11. Kids are commonly going to act this way, it's very realistically portrayed. Poor Sansa is incredibly naive and when examining her actions (or lack of actions) you need to consider her age, and her pampered upbringing.

Well, when Sansa thinks back on having gone to Cersei and pleaded with her to let her stay she thinks that it's the first time she ever was really disobedient and went against her father's words, thinking she felt as wicked as Arya when she lied to the septa. Arya on the other hand seems to do similar things on a fairly regular basis (not just in Sansa's mind), they just never have the kind of implications Sansa's actions had in King's Landing.

Of course you have a good point in that Sansa likes the things she's supposed to do much better than Arya does but I still think Sansa is focused on being obedient and when she wants to do something else she always asks, and acts according to the answer. That larger lack of selfishness is probably also a reason why she's a worse judge of character than Arya. Both are very good characters and I'm not trying to condemn either, I like them both but obviously for different reasons.

[Stego]

Jamie was more sympathetic in the pilot than I thought he would be. :D

[Brienne the Beauty]

One thing that should make Cersei and Jaime more sympathetic to the audience is the effect where attractive evil people are considered more good or reformable than ugly evil people. When we can actually see the pretty people, it has more subconscious effect on us than when we are just told they are attractive.

[nevermore]

Well i got an idea how the Lannisters stay evil brutes for series 1, if they follow the book on Lannisters they will end up looking like villains then behold LF comes along and if they can overplay Littlefinger's presence he will end up the bigger villain at the end (emphasis on Tyrion/Catylen making it clear it's not Tyrion's dagger) also get a couple of instances of Cersei getting manipulated (makes her seem pathetic) or evidence of a ghostly hand which has a hold on the plots happening which could shift focus to Varys too. it's like using misdirection, then when most of our focus is on LF/Varys in season 2, Melisandre or Stannis becomes the enemy and so on. this will obviously tire out fast, this would nearly turn it into having 1 mystery after the next type series which would suck, but coupled with the Wall arcs it would give you the sense of suspending doom and again bigger misdirection where people are like WTF change your focus unto the wall you stupid bastards!!! (betting the one where allister goes down to KL to convince Joffrey to send men would have people like that) the one thing that would be shaky would be Daenerys arcs, she could end up being very slow and detract some from the fast pace action in westeros, it worked for me in the book because there was time, but the transition could be annoying, idk. anyway i don't think you can soften the characters of Cersei and Jaime without making it look fake, but if you show instances of greater things than petty rivalry between the houses it make's audience focus less on hating Cersei or Jaime.

[Slynn71]

I was surprised that I didn't fall into a fit of hysterics when I heard Viserys talk about 'waking the dragon' in a behind the scenes clip. :laugh:

[Brude]

Oh and according to GRRM, Osha is more lively and interesting in the show as well. Younger too.

And don't forget hotter...much, much hotter.

[Theano]

I'm another one who's never been on the Cat/Sansa hate wagon. I can see why fans dislike them, but I just don't share the dislike. So far, I'm delighted with what I've seen of both actresses--Cat as someone worn out but still full of care for her children (minus that one constant reminder of Ned's infidelity--and I can't forgive "It should have been you," but Cat is also only human), Sansa as someone who loves fairy tales and is willfully, deliberately innocent.

I've got a friend who's as un-girly as possible. But her daughter, despite everything she's done to encourage tomboy-hood, is a total Disney princess. I wonder if Cat suffered similar amused frustration with Sansa. Or then again, I wonder how much like Sansa Cat was when she was a girl? Her knight in shining armor was killed, she had to marry Ned, who came home to raise a bastard alongside Cat's trueborn children. Maybe Sansa's not the only one who had to do some painful growing up.

I love love love Michele Fairley as Cat. Her apparent age doesn't bother me, considering her harsh lifestyle and her large brood. She looks so cold and stony, but when she smiles the whole world lights up. And Sophie Turner is devastatingly beautiful. She could blow away in a harsh wind--except that she is a Stark, after all.

[Tara1189]

I'm already loving Jon Snow from the pilot, mainly because of a) Kit Harrington's fantastic acting and B) I don't have to listen to any of Jon's emo thoughts.

I agree that Cersei will certainly come across as more sympathetic. It's almost hilarious watching Lena Headey in interviews trying to give some kind of reasoning/justification to the fact that her character's esentially a sociopathic bitch. I think there will be a definite emphasis on Cersei's pathological loyalty to family, and on her charm and charisma.

Sansa I think is another character who will come across more sympathetically, especially when (if) we get to Clash. It's one of those things that a visual medium will convey more effectively than a book series - I mean, can you imagine the sight of teeny tiny Sophie Turner getting smacked around by a bunch of huge, armoured guys? How anyone could think that's some sort of karmic justice for 'betraying' her family, I'll never know. But then, I never understood the Sansa hate.