Littlefinger's feelings regarding Catelyn

[Myrish swan]

There are already numerous threads discussing Littlefinger's character and his motivations. However, I don’t recall ever finding a thread discussing LF's intentions towards Cat. So, here’s my question: from the time we meet him in AGoT’s onward, what are Littlefinger’s feelings for Cat? And how does she figure (if at all) in his plans?

The way I see it, it could be any of the following possible scenarios:

1. Littlefinger hates and/ or resents Cat. In addition to plotting for power, he desires revenge against her and the rest of the Tully’s for rejecting him. Getting back at her is a crucial part of his plans.

2. Littlefinger is indifferent to Cat; his true love and life’s mission now is power. He is mostly over his boyish love for her. Since being rejected by her at age 15, he has moved on. His plans for power and self- advancement are first and foremost; she is not really a consideration. He does not desire revenge, but getting Cat back into his life in a romantic sense is not something he considers in his plots.

3. Littlefinger still loves Cat, and wants her back in his life somewhat, but his first priorities are power and self-advancement. If there is a way to get her back that goes along well with his schemes, then he will certainly pursue it. However, his power games come first.

4. Littlefinger still loves Cat as much as ever, and getting her back in his life (and in his arms) is a key part of his plans. His plan was to get rid of Ned, and then turn with open arms to “comfort” a lonely, vulnerable Catelyn. He wanted land, position, and power, but with her at his side. Getting Catelyn was every bit as important to him as his plans for power; however, obviously things didn’t work out the way he planned in regards to the former.

So… what do you all think? Is it one of these options? A combination of several of them?

[Lord Godric]

I don't think it is any one of the options you put forth, but perhaps a combination of them. I think it is very clear that Littlefinger really loved Catelyn when he was younger, but after what happened with Brandon Stark and Hoster Tully he was greatly embarassed. And while he may have grown to resent Catelyn slightly (although I don't think this is the case) I think he simply hates the Starks more. Littlefinger's odd infatuation with Sansa shows, to me anyway, that Littlefinger has turned the affection he still has for Catelyn towards Sansa, because she looks like Catelyn and can be much more easily manipulated.

[Dalan]

Not sure. He thought she gave up her maidenhead to him, but he didn't (or Martin didn't) show a whole lot of sorrow at her death.

[Lord Godric]

Not sure. He thought she gave up her maidenhead to him, but he didn't (or Martin didn't) show a whole lot of sorrow at her death.

I question whether Littlefinger actually believes Catelyn came to his bed or if he is viciously lying to make himself look better.

[Monday]

This has been discussed before in other threads, but so has everything else :P This is a neat question deserving of it's own topic.

I'm firmly in the camp of scenario #1. The Brandon Stark incident must have been humiliating for LF. He laid his balls on the line and Cat didn't even visit him after he was hurt.

Not sure. He thought she gave up her maidenhead to him, but he didn't (or Martin didn't) show a whole lot of sorrow at her death.

Don't know about that. I put more stock in Catelyn's sense of honor and duty than I would in Littlefinger's word. I also don't buy that Catelyn would give it up to a boy no older than 15 (and small for his age too) that was four years her junior. Fourteen year old boys just aren't that smooth. Not even Littlefinger.

Edit: I misunderstood what you were saying Dalan, sorry. However, I also do not believe that LF thought it was Cat instead of Lysa that night. He's been going around claiming to have had BOTH of their maidenheads if I recall correctly.

[Phostopheles]

I'm inclined to agree with Godric; it could be a combination of those and I think that will ultimately be Littlefinger's undoing. Everything to this point has been done under a unified plan: he becomes landed (twice), he gets in some form the girl of his dreams (twice), and he receives the opportunity to exact revenge against that same girl (twice). In fact, it's double that, because not only does he get to vicariously demoralize Cat through controlling Lysa and Sansa, but he also gets the satisfaction of directly affecting Cat by murdering her sister and stealing her daughter.

So far everything has been toward a common end. But I think eventually he'll have to compromise something, be it his land, his girl, or his vengeance. And I think that moment of confusion may be enough to cause him to fall from power, quite literally.

[Sidonie]

I think option #2 is what's really going on.

I think LF loved Cat as a teenager, but was so hurt and humiliated by the Tully family, Brandon Stark, and Cat herself, that he decided having emotions were too dangerous.

In AgoT, Ned notes over and over how LF takes nothing seriously and just makes offhanded quips all the time. I think LF decided, after the Brandon Stark incident, to just turn his emotions off for good. That's why he's so good at what he does: he has no empathy at all anymore, and sees everything and everyone as a chessgame/piece.

[zmflavius]

I'm personally in camp #3, because I believe that Littlefinger is still to a degree, infatuated with Cat, if only because if he only wanted Sansa as a pawn (for her claim and such), he could simply neglect her political education. So I believe that Littlefinger intends for Sansa to at least have a working chance of autonomy, if only to give her a reason to be thankful to him. And I believe that he is doing this because he wants to keep her close to him. However, he clearly still has different ambitions, especially in terms of politics, so I think that if she becomes really inconvenient, he will jettison her (though I still think he will bend over to help her if he can).

[AtoningUnifex]

I'm with #3 as the first amongst several plausible explanations. After all, his "only Cat" line while shoving Lysa out the Moondoor seems like a reverse "dying declaration" to me. Why lie to someone when you are imminently causing her death.

[snookyrump]

Littlefinger loves Littlefinger.

[Monday]

I'm with #3 as the first amongst several plausible explanations. After all, his "only Cat" line while shoving Lysa out the Moondoor seems like a reverse "dying declaration" to me. Why lie to someone when you are imminently causing her death.

They weren't the only two people in earshot. Sansa heard it too and I think it was probably said for her benefit, whether true or not.

[Ealasaid]

Yes. LF does love LF.

However, I think he was being truthful with Lysa when he shoved her out the moon door. He loved only one woman, and that was Cat. I also think he was completely over Catelyn (sort of, you had your chance and you blew it). I do not believe Catelyn gave it up for LF. He certainly did not mind involving her in the farce over "Lannisters killed Jon Arryn," that seems to have thrown Westeros into this mess.

I still think what I belive I wrote in another post; Catelyn was old (30ish, pretty old to start a family with - and LF will probably want heirs) and does not have lands or titles that will benefit LF. I do not know if he was aware of the Red Wedding plot, but if so, he did nothing to save Catelyn. And, as pointed out above, he did not seem to mourn her at all.

But now he loves or lusts after Sansa. Not only because she is so similar to Catelyn in looks. But she represents a way for LF to acquire more stature, and be a real player in Westeros.

I believe that LF is the type of person who keeps moving. He does not romanticize the past. He may hold a grudge, but it does not seem to cloud his vision or plans.

He is relentless in his quest to become.

[iamthedave]

I definitely believe that Littlefinger loved Catelyn; however he is what you might call an adaptable animal. If we're to believe he's had a key role in manipulating events and Cersei in particular (which he's explicit about), then he's probably one of the best politicians in the entire setting. We'll certainly have to see if his Winterfell plans come to fruition to judge that, but as things stand he's already doing far better than a lot of other characters just in the eyrie.

My point is that while he loved Cat, he's adapted to his society. He's not going to sacrifice himself for love, he's going to be sad internally and focus on his plans, hence no attempt to interfere with the Red Wedding.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if, during Sansa's next arc, there's a point where we get past Littlefinger's smooth exterior and he reveals that he both knew and regretted being unable to save Cat.

His attitude towards Sansa is most creepy simply because it's not her he wants: it's her mother.

[Lord Varys]

Petyr Baelish certainly loved Catelyn Tully once. This is obviously. And he honestly believes she returned his love back then, or else he would not believe that she comforted him in that night.

Later on, there is little and less indication that he cares about her very much. His steed to power is Lysa, not Catelyn, and his plot surrounding Jon Arryn and the letter to Catelyn has much more to do with the political situation in KL, and his own career chances than with ill feelings toward the Starks or the Tullys.

[Lysa on the other hand most likely really loathed her father, and Cat to a degree as well, as she she certainly always knew/suspected that Cat was the better, stronger woman, and the one Petyr always loved.]

Littlefinger is not overly emotional with Catelyn when they meet again. Maybe he pondered to win her back, but there is no real indication for such an assumption, especially as it is plain obvious that Cat really does love Ned Stark now, and not Petyr Baelish.

Considering the ruin of Ned Stark - he did this for himself. Littlefinger wanted to rule the Realm with him as his Co-Regent after Robert's death, but Ned threw his offer into his face. You don't need to be an asshole to betray Ned then, especially not if you have a biography like Littlefinger, and only your wits to defend you from poverty and Castle Sheepshit. King Stannis would have been the end to Littlefinger's glorious career, and could have very well gotten him killed.

His obsession with Sansa obviously cured him of any lingering feelings for the real Catelyn. And I'm pretty sure that this obsession is somewhat caused by the fact that he really believes that Cat did love him in return. His attraction to Sansa is as much an attraction to 'the newer and more beautiful Catelyn' but also a somewhat fatherly love - if Cat and Petyr had ended up together, Sansa might have very well have been his daughter.

[Dalan]

Edit: I misunderstood what you were saying Dalan, sorry. However, I also do not believe that LF thought it was Cat instead of Lysa that night. He's been going around claiming to have had BOTH of their maidenheads if I recall correctly.

Now this is off of remembered scenes, and my copy isn't easy to reach, but I recall when Lysa and LF first pump the pastrami together he did call her "Cat". Since he was drunk at the time, and no text (that I can recall) contradicts this, I would assume later he pounds the potatoes with Lysa while not drunk and gets her pregnant. So in his mind he does believe he took both maidenheads.

[George Snow]

I don't think it is any one of the options you put forth, but perhaps a combination of them. I think it is very clear that Littlefinger really loved Catelyn when he was younger, but after what happened with Brandon Stark and Hoster Tully he was greatly embarassed. And while he may have grown to resent Catelyn slightly (although I don't think this is the case) I think he simply hates the Starks more. Littlefinger's odd infatuation with Sansa shows, to me anyway, that Littlefinger has turned the affection he still has for Catelyn towards Sansa, because she looks like Catelyn and can be much more easily manipulated.

I agree with Lord Godric.

In AGoT, in one of the Sansa chapters where they are discussing Ned, and whether or not Sansa is a traitor like Ned is the following:

"She reminds me of the mother, not the father," Lord Petyr Baelish said quietly. "Look at her. The hair, the eyes. She is the very image of Cat at the same age."

GH

[SkynJay]

Always been #2i think. He is and has always been about himself. I dont think it was ever love, just a possession he wanted to himself, like Sansa is now.

[Monday]

Now this is off of remembered scenes, and my copy isn't easy to reach, but I recall when Lysa and LF first pump the pastrami together he did call her "Cat". Since he was drunk at the time, and no text (that I can recall) contradicts this, I would assume later he pounds the potatoes with Lysa while not drunk and gets her pregnant. So in his mind he does believe he took both maidenheads.

Hmm. I do remember him callling Lysa by her sister's name, but in my mind it was sort of like when Robert called Lyanna's name while in bed with Cersei or at worst something LF figured out pretty quick after the deed. To tell you the truth, I hope you are right Dalan. That would sure put things in a new perspective. It would also help my opinion of LF if he's wasn't (in his mind)going around the kingdoms telling those kind of lies about Cat. Going to have to pay extra special attention to the Cat/LF/Lysa parts on my next re-read!

[Jaak]

Hmm. I do remember him callling Lysa by her sister's name, but in my mind it was sort of like when Robert called Lyanna's name while in bed with Cersei or at worst something LF figured out pretty quick after the deed. To tell you the truth, I hope you are right Dalan. That would sure put things in a new perspective. It would also help my opinion of LF if he's wasn't (in his mind)going around the kingdoms telling those kind of lies about Cat. Going to have to pay extra special attention to the Cat/LF/Lysa parts on my next re-read!

Indeed. It is not Littlefinger´s lie, and he does not know it is not true.

Remember what Lysa did. Crept into his bedroom what he was sad and drunk, told him she loved him and let him call her Cat.

If he did not figure out it wasn´t Cat then his challenge to Brandon makes perfect sense. It is something Robb would have done in his place as well - in face of predictably disastrous consequences.

[Ealasaid]

Indeed. It is not Littlefinger´s lie, and he does not know it is not true.

Remember what Lysa did. Crept into his bedroom what he was sad and drunk, told him she loved him and let him call her Cat.

If he did not figure out it wasn´t Cat then his challenge to Brandon makes perfect sense. It is something Robb would have done in his place as well - in face of predictably disastrous consequences.

That would make sense, except for the fact that LF bragged he'd both the Tully sisters.