Littlefinger's feelings regarding Catelyn

[Gurkhal]

My view on it is that Littlefinger either don't care one bit, or that he's is a very disturbed individual. I kind of like the second choice and hopes he dies miserable. :)

[Jaak]

I think my opinion on this is not a popular one, but my veiw is that Littlefinger was attempting to orchestrate Ned's death by writing this letter. He wants Ned to die so that once he finally has that lordship at Harrenhal he's been working dilligently towards, he can be a suitable match for the widowed Catelyn. He would also probably derive pleasure from Catelyn's suffering and hopelessness after Ned's death.

The alternative view seems to be that he wanted to enflame Stark-Lannister tensions basically to increase the likelihood of civil war, and I honestly don't think that would be a very sound plan... too many variables. No, Ned's death was the first goal - Littlefinger did benefit from the chaos in the end, but I don't see the chaos being his goal ala The Joker.

We do not see Littlefinger taking direct steps to be in position to wed widowed Catelyn during War of Five Kings. He stayed at King´s Landing rather than defect to Stark/Tully side.

And I do not think Ned´s death was his goal long ahead.

Rather, murder of Jon and blaming Lannisters for it were immediately sensible moves to keep balance of power and ensure that whoever was in power needed him and let him do as he pleased.

Jon had promoted him - on merits (the other tax collectors at Gulltown had brought only one third the income, and his predecessor as Master of Coin had been embattled). Petyr could have been happy with status quo ante, of Jon as Hand, Lysa married to Jon and raising Robert, pining for Petyr but not daring to act, and Stannis laughed off at council by Robert Baratheon.

But Jon was breaking status quo ante with his plot to make Robert Arryn a ward of Stannis. With that kind of alliance, Jon might not have exposed and executed Petyr but Jon was definitely capable of firing and replacing Petyr just to please Stannis who disliked and distrusted Petyr - back to Sheepshit for Petyr. So poison made immediate sense - any new Hand would be less likely to prefer Stannis, and Petyr was out of immediate trouble.

But that brought next problem. Lannister grab for Robert Arryn.

Lannister dominance did not suit Petyr, either. Tywin who shat gold would not have such an urgent need for Petyr - either replaced and back to Sheepshit, or at best to be on his best behaviour with Lannisters over his shoulders. So Petyr needed someone to play off against Lannisters. And Starks were the best. Mind you, even Hand Eddard who had his general distrust of Lannisters but no specific grievance would not be as good. Accusing Lannisters of Jon´s death made Eddard their opponent.

Suppose that Eddard had accepted Petyr´s advice and seized Regency. A stupid and honourable Regent who was out of his depth at the helm and needed Petyr to run the realm might have suited Petyr quite well - I suspect that Petyr would have worked to uphold such a situation, with no treachery, and just poisonous remarks against Catelyn. But Eddard did not agree... And Robb making his peace with Tywin did not suit Petyr either, because gold-shitting Tywin free from frontlines and sitting over Petyr´s shoulder was also going to be inconvenient.

[Lord Varys]

The Regent offer also indicates very much that Petyr did not really want to create an all-out war. If Ned had followed his advice, the Realm would have been secure, there would have been peace, and all of them would have prospered. It was very much the same type of 'honorable' offer Varys later made Ned down in the Black Cells. But he had Sansa's life as leverage. Littlefinger did not. And so Ned ended up refusing him.

[nevermore]

well if you think about it, the only person who has been benefiting of the war has been Petyr, so his plan may have been war along. Giving false information to the Starks and agitating them against the Lannisters. the killing of Jon was self defence but everything after was orchestrated so that the Starks would fall, they would have to even if Eddard became lord regent, the matter of 'Petyrs dagger' would undoubtedly come up because it would be easy enough thing to verify and that would pit Ned against Petyr which would have been a dire situation again. But the Lannisters were weakened but still in power, he backed Lannisters because they were the strongest and at the same time easiest to manipulate, rather than say Tyrells because they were too strong a position and would have no need of him, also he believed Tyrion would be killed, either by Lysa or Catelyn. By siding with the Lannisters he could also diffuse the tension between the Arryns and the Lannisters when the war was over and Tyrion dead, because the Lannisters would believe they would be sending one of their own to rule the Eyrie while Lysa would come to him with open arms. But thats just how i see it.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The Regent offer also indicates very much that Petyr did not really want to create an all-out war. If Ned had followed his advice, the Realm would have been secure, there would have been peace, and all of them would have prospered. It was very much the same type of 'honorable' offer Varys later made Ned down in the Black Cells. But he had Sansa's life as leverage. Littlefinger did not. And so Ned ended up refusing him.

Pretty sure this wasn't an honest offer, and if Ned accepted, LF would have turned on him anyway. I still think that Petyr Baelish had every reason to hate and resent Ned Stark, and would not ever have intended a long term alliance. Vary's offer was honest, as was Renly's. Littlefinger's not so much.

Poisoning Jon + Letter... could be what you are saying Jaak, that LF felt threatened by the idea of Jon Arryn fostering Robert at Dragonstone. Sure, Stannis doesn't like LF, but Stannis doesn't like anyone! :fencing: I don't think LF was in danger from Stannis or Jon. Is there any evidence that this is why LF killed Jon Arryn? I do think that LF knew he would have an easier time manipulating Lysa and holding power of the Eyrie in the future if Jon were dead - there's good evidence that this is what he had in mind by killing Jon, from Sansa's PoVs at the end of aSoS.

As for telling Lysa to inform Cat, one possibility is that LF knew Ned would be easy to manipulate as hand. Still I think LF intended all along to make sure Ned died in the end.

Why didn't Littlefinger try to go after Catelyn if she was his goal? Well, by the time that Littlefinger was actually Lord of Harrenhal by rights, Catelyn was marching around with Robb. Littlefinger's power is all derived from the Lannisters at this point - if he defects to the Stark/Tully side, he loses the lordship he needs as leverage for the match, and unlike the other Lords he has nothing to offer (no men, no money of his own, and above all no lands). Catelyn is no more likely to marry Littlefinger at this point than at any other time previous (so that is to say never). Remember, Catelyn was not supposed to die at the red wedding - she was supposed to become a hostage. I am thinking that Littlefinger's plan was to bring Catelyn to court after Robb's death and, being the only friend she had left, convince her to marry him. As Lord of Harrenhal, it would now be a suitable match and Catelyn might even agree IMO. IIRC, Littlefinger leaves court around the time he hears of Catelyn's death... nothing really holds him there any longer.

[Huan]

So did Petyr whisper the idea of beheading Ned in Joffrey's ear? At that point Ned was not useful to Petyr, but why kill him rather than letting him take the black? There are other references to Petyr whispering ideas to Joffrey (hire dwarves for his wedding is one I can think of). When Varys and Tyrion have the conversation about who ultimately holds power, I was wondering if Varys was hinting that someone had planted the idea of Ned's execution, and it wasn't just Joffrey being arbitrarily cruel.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

So did Petyr whisper the idea of beheading Ned in Joffrey's ear? At that point Ned was not useful to Petyr, but why kill him rather than letting him take the black? There are other references to Petyr whispering ideas to Joffrey (hire dwarves for his wedding is one I can think of). When Varys and Tyrion have the conversation about who ultimately holds power, I was wondering if Varys was hinting that someone had planted the idea of Ned's execution, and it wasn't just Joffrey being arbitrarily cruel.

Yes, this is the popular notion - that Littlefinger suggested Ned should be killed not send to the Wall.

Why have Ned killed? Once Ned is on the way back North... close to Winterfell and only a short boat ride to Dragonstone... it's quite possible that Ned would "drop in" and convince Robb to defect from Joffery and declare for Stannis. Stannis + The North would have been a much harder egg to crack - Littlefinger benefits most from the Lannisters retaining power at this point.

Also my opinion as you can read above is that Littlefinger intended all along to widow Catelyn and marry her, so the personal goes along with nicely with the professional. With Ned at the wall, Catelyn would return to Winterfell and stay there.

[Huan]

Yes, this is the popular notion - that Littlefinger suggested Ned should be killed not send to the Wall.

Why have Ned killed? Once Ned is on the way back North... close to Winterfell and only a short boat ride to Dragonstone... it's quite possible that Ned would "drop in" and convince Robb to defect from Joffery and declare for Stannis. Stannis + The North would have been a much harder egg to crack - Littlefinger benefits most from the Lannisters retaining power at this point.

Also my opinion as you can read above is that Littlefinger intended all along to widow Catelyn and marry her, so the personal goes along with nicely with the professional. With Ned at the wall, Catelyn would return to Winterfell and stay there.

You're right, that all makes sense from Littlefinger's point of view: tying up a loose end, gaining access to widow Catelyn at some point after he'd become Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident, and keeping the balance of power tilted towards the Lannisters. However, given Ned's sense of honor, would he have tried to talk strategy with Robb? At first I thought no, and certainly the old Ned wouldn't have, but the new Ned who was finally willing to "confess" in order to save his daughters would also have done his best to protect the rest of his family. Unfortunately we don't get to see how Ned was changed by his confession.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

However, given Ned's sense of honor, would he have tried to talk strategy with Robb? At first I thought no, and certainly the old Ned wouldn't have, but the new Ned who was finally willing to "confess" in order to save his daughters would also have done his best to protect the rest of his family. Unfortunately we don't get to see how Ned was changed by his confession.

I think the old Ned's major concern was to Do What's Right. And he still believes that What's Right is Stannis should inherit from Robert. Is it dishonorable, then, to tell Robb the truth that he knows? No more than writing "my heir" instead of "Joffery" on Robert's will was, and clearly Ned was willing to do that. I guess the dishonor you're thinking of is that joining the NW means Ned is supposed to immediately forsake his family connections - but he won't have taken vows until he reaches the wall, so he won't be breaking any.

I think if Ned's motivation was to keep his family safe, he should convince Robb to swear fealty to Joffery, not Stannis, and to get ready to hole up for the winter, cutting off as much contact with the south as possible.

At any rate, from LF's perspective, and that of Joffery, the thing is they can't be certain what Ned will do once they let him go to the wall - he was a loose end that needed tying up.

[Josiah Rowe]

Going back to Littlefinger's days at Riverrun, what do we know about the chronology there? Specifically, does the duel with Brandon Stark come before or after he supposedly slept with Catelyn?

(As mentioned before, I'm of the opinion that he never slept with Cat, but he drunkenly slept with Lysa thinking she was Cat; he later slept with Lysa again, thinking it was the first time when it wasn't. I think he chooses not to disabuse himself of the notion that he took Cat's maidenhead.)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Going back to Littlefinger's days at Riverrun, what do we know about the chronology there? Specifically, does the duel with Brandon Stark come before or after he supposedly slept with Catelyn?

(As mentioned before, I'm of the opinion that he never slept with Cat, but he drunkenly slept with Lysa thinking she was Cat; he later slept with Lysa again, thinking it was the first time when it wasn't. I think he chooses not to disabuse himself of the notion that he took Cat's maidenhead.)

You know... I was going to post what I thought, which is that Petyr slept with Lysa prior to the duel, but now I can't find the references in the book.

Here's how I figured it:

Catelyn gets engaged to Brandon and he visits Riverrun for celebration feast in honor of the engagement

Petyr gets falling down drunk out of jealousy at the feast

Lysa sneaks into his room and sleeps with drunk Petyr, he thinks she is Cat, who has realized she really loves Petyr, not Brandon - aka happiest moment of his life.

The Next Day (or so), Petyr challenges Brandon to the duel and is badly wounded.

Lysa "comforts" Petyr ala Jeyne Westerling while he's convalescing, and Lysa becomes pregnant.

Petyr is sent away as soon as he's healthy enough to travel.

[A wilding]

You know... I was going to post what I thought, which is that Petyr slept with Lysa prior to the duel, but now I can't find the references in the book.

Here's how I figured it:

Catelyn gets engaged to Brandon and he visits Riverrun for celebration feast in honor of the engagement

Petyr gets falling down drunk out of jealousy at the feast

Lysa sneaks into his room and sleeps with drunk Petyr, he thinks she is Cat, who has realized she really loves Petyr, not Brandon - aka happiest moment of his life.

Seems unlikely seeing that before Petyr got drunk he and Catelyn danced six dances together and then he tried to kiss her. I don't see that happening with her new betrothed in attendance.

ETA: I looked it up. Last Sansa chapter in ASoS. The feast was held to try to reconcile the Blackwoods and Brackens. This didn't go according to plan and the children appear to have been left to their own devices as a result.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Seems unlikely seeing that before Petyr got drunk he and Catelyn danced six dances together and then he tried to kiss her. I don't see that happening with her new betrothed in attendance.

ETA: I looked it up. Last Sansa chapter in ASoS. The feast was held to try to reconcile the Blackwoods and Brackens. This didn't go according to plan and the children appear to have been left to their own devices as a result.

Thanks.

So, I still assume this feast/Petyr-sleeping-with-Lysa-thinking-she's-Cat must have occurred prior to the duel with Brandon?

[A wilding]

Definitely. After all after the duel he was injured and then sent away as soon as travel would not kill him.

Personally I have always assumed he was knowingly sleeping with Lysa before the duel as well. But it is not certain, it might have been like Robb and Jeyne Westerling with her nursing him afterwards. I see the arguments against that as: ( a ) by that point Hoster would surely want to ensure his daughters were kept well away from him; and ( b ) if he was that injured he might not have been up to it.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Definitely. After all after the duel he was injured and then sent away as soon as travel would not kill him.

Personally I have always assumed he was knowingly sleeping with Lysa before the duel as well. But it is not certain, it might have been like Robb and Jeyne Westerling with her nursing him afterwards. I see the arguments against that as: ( a ) by that point Hoster would surely want to ensure his daughters were kept well away from him; and ( b ) if he was that injured he might not have been up to it.

I'm sure that Petyr was a horny teen and all, but I have the feeling that he would have been sexually faithful to Catelyn (from his perspective) until after the duel with Brandon. He seemed pretty idealistic at the time of the duel, not someone who was messing around with two young women. That period must have been tough for Lysa, knowing they'd already been together but knowing he didn't remember it was her... :-/

I do see your point, that Hoster would probably have made sure that Petyr was locked away from Lysa/Cat... but then again he did raise Petyr like a son, and might have trusted him more than he should have. Plus Lysa was going to be pretty determined here.

[Jaak]

Definitely. After all after the duel he was injured and then sent away as soon as travel would not kill him.

Personally I have always assumed he was knowingly sleeping with Lysa before the duel as well. But it is not certain, it might have been like Robb and Jeyne Westerling with her nursing him afterwards. I see the arguments against that as: ( a ) by that point Hoster would surely want to ensure his daughters were kept well away from him; and ( b ) if he was that injured he might not have been up to it.

I believe Catelyn specifically mentions she was not allowed to visit Petyr after the duel (logical, the duel was about her and she chose Brandon), and they did not as much as speak; and when he sent her a letter after Brandon died, she burnt it unopened. Whereas Lysa was allowed to nurse Petyr - also logical, because Petyr loved Catelyn, and Hoster was not suspecting Lysa.

Lysa would have had a good opportunity to go on about how Catelyn was "just playing" with him (omitting the mention that she was the one who slept with him), and persuade Petyr that she was the one who really loved him. He may well have been capable of doing what she wanted before he was sent away (and, like many grooms, not notice that she was not a virgin).

[Caro99]

i think he is option 3, though cat herself, lysa way deep down and maybe even ned (had he known the whole truth regarding the dagger) would go for option 4. the first two are also good but seeing as he is risking to a a certain degree hi skin by "saving" sansa from the lannisters and all the trouble he's taken with her, i don't think he would do that if he didn't love cat... or maybe he is just way TOO evil and he only rescued sansa to have a little fun with her and ruin her life in the end so as to revenge himself on the tullys- which i guess would be a good thing for him that the only child of cat's he could take over control was the one that (to his knowledge) is the last one alive and the prettiest and the one who resembles her mother most... but hopefully he isn't that evil and is more or less a romantic instead...

however, i wonder what he must have done the moment he learned of the Red Wedding???

[Mirror Creatures]

I think Petyr's feelings for Cat were a very selfish love, more like an obsession. Which is equally strong like true love but doesn't make him want the best for her but more for himself.

I don't think that he ever stopped loving her, because he never had the chance to live that love. However, he is a clever man, and he knew that winning Cat back was nearly impossible so his other obsession -power- repressed those feelings. But I think his relationship to Sansa shows that he never got over Cat.