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[Book Spoilers] An Unexpected Death

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I think the point is that there are several different ways to handle reduction of minor characters.

One is to kill them off.

The easier one is to just not mention them in the first place.

Anyone who does something important in book/season 2 or 3, but is "minor" and non essential in season/book 1 is better handled by not mentioning them. You can always introduce them later if you get a second season and decide you need them after all. If that was the case, just don't mention the fellow in the first place.

Killing off a minor character is useful for someone who does something important early on, and then later isn't that important.

Since they don't even know yet if they are going to get a second season I think it would be focused more on shrinking season 1. So this probably isn't about killing a character off to shrink the story in season 2 or 3.

To me that points to Lord Hoster Tully. He's important early mainly as a plot device for restraining his son Edmure from acting rashly. He's also useful as a character development for Catlyen and Edmure. Edmure by making it so this is the first test of a rookie lord. Catlyen by creating flashbacks about her Litterfinger, and Lysa. Tansy. Oh, and for increasing her grief about all the men in her life dying.

So other then the Tansy line, he's pretty much fulfilled his role by existing at the start of season 1. The Tansy line is easy to recreate with someone mentioning to Catlyen his last words.

Thus killing him early in season 1 simplifies the cast in season 2, and reduces the complexities of season 1 for viewers. (Remembering the Edmure is not really the Lord was hard enough in the books.)

I'm not sure how killing Beric does the same thing. In fact I'm not sure why they included him at all. Just send some no-face knight named Beric off to go arrest the Mountain that Rides, and that way you can bring him in in season 2 if you get it. By the time you get to killing Beric in season 1 he already has more lines and screen time then he gets in the book.

Besides- it's not surprising if Beric dies in the first season. After all, he did die in the first book. That's not a change.

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If it's a very minor character like that, yeah, probably Rast. Or maybe one of the northeners who would have gotten taken out at the Red Wedding dies fighting Jaime's host for some reason? I don't know. If it's very minor then it's probably not Beric (who I wouldn't classify as that minor of a character), and even Karstark and Hoster have a purpose. Rast doesn't really beyond showing that the Wall has a lot of bad people on it, once you see that on the road from Winterfell to the Wall, he's pretty expendable. One of the northeners that never really did anything (say, Smalljon Umber...I wouldn't classify his father as extremely minor, plus he isn't even dead, but Smalljon's pretty minor) would be my second guess.

As far as Hoster goes, I do agree that you could kill him off earlier and not really lose too much. But he does have a bit of a purpose to keep existing; aside from the fact that it allows Edmure to "grow into" being the Lord of Riverrun (I know he was running things with his father ill, but it's still not the same while Hoster's alive), he also allows them to drop clues about Lysa and Littlefinger slowly and spread out. If he dies in the first season, you either lose the whole Tansy thing (true about the last words, but it has more power actually coming from him), or you have to throw it out there from another character (weird and doesn't make sense) or way earlier, at the end of Season 1, in which case you then go pretty much a whole season with no real clues.

It wouldn't be some huge deal, but he does serve a bit of a purpose. Guys like Rast pretty much don't after the very initial meeting to show the types of people on the Wall.

As for Beric, I assume the speculation was based on him actually dying, for good, no resurrection. Otherwise GRRM wouldn't have commented on someone dying early. Still, he serves a much bigger purpose than anyone else we've talked about, the idea would solely be based on condensing things down a bit for future seasons. On the other hand, why do that? You need the BWB to exist. Even if you eliminate the whole Arya thing and just have the Hound randomly grab her somewhere, they have to find and resurrect Catelyn. Considering the story with Catelyn isn't even close to being over and undoubtedly has some importance, they're not going to cut that whole thing out, but to get there and for that to have the impact it does, you have to already know about the Brotherhood and already know about Thoros. No point to doing that without Beric.

Plus, come on. Everyone loves Robin Hood. The BWB stuff while they're playing the Merry Men type will make for some fun scenes, and the scene with Merrett should be great to watch as well.

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I think the point is that there are several different ways to handle reduction of minor characters.

One is to kill them off.

The easier one is to just not mention them in the first place.

Anyone who does something important in book/season 2 or 3, but is "minor" and non essential in season/book 1 is better handled by not mentioning them. You can always introduce them later if you get a second season and decide you need them after all. If that was the case, just don't mention the fellow in the first place.

Killing off a minor character is useful for someone who does something important early on, and then later isn't that important.

Since they don't even know yet if they are going to get a second season I think it would be focused more on shrinking season 1. So this probably isn't about killing a character off to shrink the story in season 2 or 3.

To me that points to Lord Hoster Tully. He's important early mainly as a plot device for restraining his son Edmure from acting rashly. He's also useful as a character development for Catlyen and Edmure. Edmure by making it so this is the first test of a rookie lord. Catlyen by creating flashbacks about her Litterfinger, and Lysa. Tansy. Oh, and for increasing her grief about all the men in her life dying.

So other then the Tansy line, he's pretty much fulfilled his role by existing at the start of season 1. The Tansy line is easy to recreate with someone mentioning to Catlyen his last words.

Thus killing him early in season 1 simplifies the cast in season 2, and reduces the complexities of season 1 for viewers. (Remembering the Edmure is not really the Lord was hard enough in the books.)

But as you yourself say, there are two ways to simplify the cast: kill someone off, or never mention them in the first place. If the producers decide they don't want Hoster in the cast, that's fine, but killing him doesn't make any sense. He's not even cast in this season, so they'd have to kill him offscreen and have someone mention it, which really wouldn't have much of an impact for viewers. It's pointless.

Now, if they still want to omit him from future seasons then they can go for the other option you suggested, which is to never mention him (while we the readers can infer that he died some time earlier). That works much better, I think, than killing offscreen a character the audience has never met.

Besides- it's not surprising if Beric dies in the first season. After all, he did die in the first book. That's not a change.

Exactly. Beric does actually die in the first book, so the argument over including him in future seasons isn't so much an argument over killing him off as it is an argument over bringing him back. And the producers can wait until Season 2 to do make that decision.

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I've read in posts above that they have casted Beric, do we know what that casting choice is yet? I had originally thought they'd just show Sansa watching his punitive expedition leave KL in search of Ser Gregor, and have someone (Jeyne Poole for example) remark on it to establish the existence of his character. Simple, cheap, wouldn't really have to cast anyone as they could just have his banners and a bunch of guys in armor from a distance. (Although I'm glad he's actually being cast...though somewhat less glad if he gets killed off for good in Season 1)

David Michael Scott is Beric. He's even uploaded a Beric image onto his IMDB page.

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Well after tonight's episode I believe it to be Bran.... As he is pushed out a window by the queens brother after Bran accidentally sees

the Queen having sex with her Handsome Brother YUCK!!

Um. Not so much.

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So, what I'm to understand...

Beric has been cast, but can't be a new death because he already dies in book one.

Hoster hasn't been cast, and therefore can't die because it'd have no impact and leave Catelyn sitting around twiddling her thumbs come season 3.

Since people are so adamant that neither Robb nor Tywin can die, I'm forced to conclude that the character to be axed this season is:

Joffrey :P

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Well after tonight's episode I believe it to be Bran.... As he is pushed out a window by the queens brother after Bran accidentally sees

the Queen having sex with her Handsome Brother YUCK!!

You might have had a valid argument there but for one thing: Bran doesn't die in Book 3.

Or were you joking? No smiley makes it hard to tell.

Welcome to the board with your first post BTW.

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Finally, keep in mind that Ran believes we can rule out Hoster, Karstark, and Beric, so I don't know why people keep focusing on them.

Well then why hasn't someone complied a list of the "very minor characters" that die in aSoS? And we can pick from there. I thought Dondarrion would be considered a minor character, but if we're going even lesser than him, there can't be that many choices left, can there?

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Too much altering of the story from the book will likely result in a backlash and decline in viewership.

This view seems to be based on the assumption that the majority of the viewership is made up of fans of the books. If the series ever reaches the stage where this is true, it's already in pretty big trouble. Realistically there are nothing like enough fans of the books to support a series with a budget the size of this one. Moreover, to adapt the books faithfully enough to avoid the possibility of any such 'backlash' will cost even more. There's such a thing as diminishing returns, and extending each season by several episodes for fear of losing a small number of hardcore fans is a great example of that.

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Well then why hasn't someone complied a list of the "very minor characters" that die in aSoS? And we can pick from there.

Half of the Night's Watch dies in Book 3. Make your pick.

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Has anyone considered the possibility that our early death may in fact be the Lord Commander himself?

It would make sense, in a sick sort of way - speed up Jon's ascension at Castle Black, throw the whole civilization-versus-wildlings/Others conflict into turbo gear so less time is spent developing tons of backstory, eliminate or trim down minor (but wholly enjoyable) characters like Qorin Halfhand and go straight to Snow versus Mance in expedited fashion.

Since the story must be "simplified" somewhat for a viewing audience, there's a lot that can be left out development-wise by killing Lord Mormont and having Jon step up a bit faster at the Wall. Plus it keeps the focus on a Stark (or a Snow, in this case, heh) and keeps them from having to train the damned raven to scream "Corn!" at every freaking opportunity.

Just a thought.

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Deaf Dick is a luxury HBO cannot afford!

:lol:

Has anyone considered the possibility that our early death may in fact be the Lord Commander himself?

Yes. It's already been discussed in this thread, in fact. He's not a 'minor' character.

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Ye gods, this board has gotten so damn BIG in the last ten years... it's going to be virtually impossible to find something that hasn't been discussed and re-discussed and picked apart, innit?

*grin*

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Has anyone considered the possibility that our early death may in fact be the Lord Commander himself? It would make sense, in a sick sort of way - speed up Jon's ascension at Castle Black, throw the whole civilization-versus-wildlings/Others conflict into turbo gear so less time is spent developing tons of backstory, eliminate or trim down minor (but wholly enjoyable) characters like Qorin Halfhand and go straight to Snow versus Mance in expedited fashion.

Since the story must be "simplified" somewhat for a viewing audience, there's a lot that can be left out development-wise by killing Lord Mormont and having Jon step up a bit faster at the Wall. Plus it keeps the focus on a Stark (or a Snow, in this case, heh) and keeps them from having to train the damned raven to scream "Corn!" at every freaking opportunity.

Just a thought.

There's no way. Jon gets to the wall, the lowest of the low, the Lord Commander dies somehow, and Jon is elected Lord Commander? Even the way it works in the book it's a stretch and it's underscored that there are a lot of very unusual circumstances that go into it. You might as well just put wings on Jon and have him go smite the Others, so we can wrap it up in two seasons.

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