[NO SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion

[MindLikeWarp]

So, my husband watched the first episode with me- he hasn't read the books- and he like it overall, but had a few issues.

1. He thought that Dothraki sounds like Klingon...

2. Though Jaime looked like that prince from Shrek.

3. Wasn't crazy about the music score- thought it was too typical of the genre.

4. Was a bit confused in some conversations where back story is mentioned without explanation. Luckily he had me to explain some (particularly the scene in the crypt and the back story on Ned's dead sister and "him" who Robert hates so much). He (my husband) thinks if a viewer doesn't have someone who knows the novels around, they could feel a little lost, but basically understood that all backstories will eventually be revealed.

5. He thought there was a tad too much dog style sex (3 scenes), and I kind of agree but understand why the Dothraki do it that way. My problem is mainly with the last "things I do for love" scene- it would have been more in keeping with her character if she had been on top.

Otherwise he liked the show. I like it as well, but found the pace to be fast and choppy... But it's the pilot episode, so I expected it for the most part.

Edit: P.S. Am I the only one who doesn't think the opening credits are all that awesome?

Why can you understand the Dothraki doing it doggy, but not everyone else? I actually do think they were doing it to be historically accurate. That's the way people had sex. Missionary is fairly new and would have been used by mostly by the pious during those times.

[MindLikeWarp]

I must say I thought the amount of sex and nudity was perfect. More wouldn't have hurt. It's medieval. It's gritty and hard in that world. There is nothing wrong with the human body or sex. It didn't seem pornographic at all. It was all a part of the story.

[Areo]

Why can you understand the Dothraki doing it doggy, but not everyone else? I actually do think they were doing it to be historically accurate. That's the way people had sex. Missionary is fairly new and would have been used by mostly by the pious during those times.

I think we have a sort of consensus here that the last sexual scene was intended for surprise when we see Cersei's face, and not to be "historically accurate", whatever that means (I'd say nothing within a fantasy world). And saying that missionary is a new pose is strange, I'm pretty sure I've seen depictions of varous positions in Roman and Ancient Greek art. The only genuinely new poses in sex are those devised for porn movies - utterly uncomfortable but good for watching on screen. Otherwise the way people have sex hasn't changed a lot.

[reiver]

I must say I thought the amount of sex and nudity was perfect. More wouldn't have hurt. It's medieval. It's gritty and hard in that world. There is nothing wrong with the human body or sex. It didn't seem pornographic at all. It was all a part of the story.

I don't see the connection between "gritty and hard" and gratuitous, lingering nudity that is shot to titillate. Lets be clear about how choreograhed and cynical it was. They deliberately had the camera pan down to show Emilia Clarke's bum but also had her in such a pose that we wouldn't see any "lips" that we aren't supposed to. There's nothing natural about that and i find the whole thing slightly distasteful and unnecessary. Saying it's part of the story doesn't really excuse it when it's bad and weakens the whole rather than adds to it.

Don't get me wrong, i'm hardly puritanical (as i'm sure no-one who reads and enjoys the books is) and i am not averse to nudity or sex when it's done right and done well. When it feels tacky and pervy it cheapens the whole production in the same way crappy SFX or clumsy dialogue does. A good example of natural nudity is things like Ewan Mcgregor in Trainspotting. That whole scene where he wanders out of a room naked pulling a used condom from his penis is pretty graphic as nudity goes but it is right for the scene and it's not got any fancy camera movements or lighting to pretty him up or hide stuff the actor doesn't want to show.

I'm fine with lots of sex and nudity but please do it right and not go all True Blood or Starz.

Edit: Thinking about it Deadwood is probably the perfect example. There was nudity, crudity and plentiful cocksucking but I don't remember it ever feeling forced or out of place.

[Imp]

From the comments I saw here and other sites online I expected the sex and nudity to be completely over the top.

However after watching I didn't at all get that impression. Couple of brief sex scenes, one or two topless shots, and that was it. And (at least imo) all of the shown sex / nudity added to character and plot development.

Really the Rome pilot seemed a lot more gratuitous as far as the sex scenes go.

On the pilot overall I thought it was a solid adaption of the source material. Some of the expository dialogue seemed a little clunky. But that's to be expected when they had to fit so much into a 1 hour slot. Would give it a solid B/B+, and I expect it to improve as the characters and setting becomes more fleshed out.

[sedeyus]

All the sex seemed pretty in-character to me. 1. Dany and Viserys - an effective way to show how much control he has over his sister and how much he abuses it. There's some foreshadowing and also hints about incest in the Targaryen history. 2. Tyrion and the whores - even getting past that it's a funny contrast between his stature and his um, ... prowess, Tyrion's whoring is actually a major character-trait. As the first season runs on, they'll explain why. 3. Dany's wedding - I think the wedding scene was to really drive home how alien the culture was to Dany. And the scene with her and Drogo to emphasize how brutal an arranged marriage can be. 4. Cersei and Jaime - obviviously, this one was vital to the story. It actually annoyed me though. I don't care if they didn't use missionary in the middle ages, Cersei should have been on top. I don't even buy that is what simply about hiding her face, she could have her back to Bran, Jaime sees Bran in the window, and then Cersei turns around.

[chris.t.]

My wife hasn't read the books. Her comment after Bran is pushed out of the tower: "Well, this show just keeps giving and giving doesn't it."

I don't think she liked it. But I didn't expect her to.

[MindLikeWarp]

I don't see the connection between "gritty and hard" and gratuitous, lingering nudity that is shot to titillate. Lets be clear about how choreograhed and cynical it was. They deliberately had the camera pan down to show Emilia Clarke's bum but also had her in such a pose that we wouldn't see any "lips" that we aren't supposed to. There's nothing natural about that and i find the whole thing slightly distasteful and unnecessary. Saying it's part of the story doesn't really excuse it when it's bad and weakens the whole rather than adds to it.

Don't get me wrong, i'm hardly puritanical (as i'm sure no-one who reads and enjoys the books is) and i am not averse to nudity or sex when it's done right and done well. When it feels tacky and pervy it cheapens the whole production in the same way crappy SFX or clumsy dialogue does. A good example of natural nudity is things like Ewan Mcgregor in Trainspotting. That whole scene where he wanders out of a room naked pulling a used condom from his penis is pretty graphic as nudity goes but it is right for the scene and it's not got any fancy camera movements or lighting to pretty him up or hide stuff the actor doesn't want to show.

I'm fine with lots of sex and nudity but please do it right and not go all True Blood or Starz.

Edit: Thinking about it Deadwood is probably the perfect example. There was nudity, crudity and plentiful cocksucking but I don't remember it ever feeling forced or out of place.

I didn't think seeing her bum was that gratuitous. It's a butt, hardly worthy of even being called nudity. Girls in thongs show just as much and that isn't considered nudity. And I think comparing it to True Blood is well off the mark. True Blood is disgusting. I didn't feel that way about any scenes in GoT. Also you normally don't see "lips" when a person is standing up. Do you? I'm not sure. :) I thought Dany's scenes showed her vulnerability, how she had no control over herself, and how she was sort of a blank canvas still yet to be painted or molded. The nudity seemed to show those traits very well IMO. I guess I just have no problem with nudity at all. If it was done in a forced way, I think it was there to get you ready and used to it, because there will be a lot more, and viewers better drop their perconceived notions when dealing with this series. I'm not saying you have them but I'm sure some viewers do, and if some were done a bit over the top, they were intended to affect them.

I also think reading it and seeing it are two different things. We make the sex and nudity fit what we expect, but visually we have to accept someone else's interpretations. But I respect your view, but please it was nothing like True Blood. That stuff is just gross!

[Areo]

Oh, dear! I don't remember perceiving True Blood so distasteful as so many here describe it. Perhaps I started watching it with a different mindset, you know, vampire bs. But it's true that out of proportion sex can ruin things. Spartacus was for me a load of crap. I like watching sex and men fighting with swords, but you can't just throw it all in without anything meaningful besides it.

HBO generally don't do that and I see GoT as done pretty well in this respect. Boardwalk had some mildly shocking scenes, like opening of legs to show lack of panties and cutting a prostitute's face. Yet, it doesn't feel cheap and excessive (to me). BTW, did you see the finale of the latest The Borgias? Sforza says "We're married now" and goes on raping his teen wife Lucrezia, with hints of worse things to follow in this marriage. So get over that Dany/Drogo scene. It's well done and I could've even accepted more just to get a real feel of how vulnerable Daenerys is.

[fitheach]

Why can you understand the Dothraki doing it doggy, but not everyone else? I actually do think they were doing it to be historically accurate. That's the way people had sex. Missionary is fairly new and would have been used by mostly by the pious during those times.

I understand why the Dothraki did it that way, because I've read the books (it's explained how they have sex and why)... No missionary is not new, just the name missionary is new. Sexually, there's probably nothing new under the sun.

Anyway, let's not thread jack this discussion about what sexual positions were common in a fantasy world. :P

4. Cersei and Jaime - obviviously, this one was vital to the story. It actually annoyed me though. I don't care if they didn't use missionary in the middle ages, Cersei should have been on top. I don't even buy that is what simply about hiding her face, she could have her back to Bran, Jaime sees Bran in the window, and then Cersei turns around.

:agree: She's totally an on the top type- it would be in keeping with the character, and that's really the only thing that bugged me (and only a little). But maybe there was some issue with the actress, I think she was pregnant at that time- so maybe this worked better for filming.

[Lannes]

He thought that Dothraki sounds like Klingon...

My wife (who has read the first 3 books) also commented on this and how the Dothraki "acted" Klingon as well. Who knows....maybe some Klingon was in the back of GRRM's mind when he created them.

[reiver]

I also think reading it and seeing it are two different things. We make the sex and nudity fit what we expect, but visually we have to accept someone else's interpretations. But I respect your view, but please it was nothing like True Blood. That stuff is just gross!

Maybe i'm overreacting, i've only seen it once and the Tyrion scene coming in the middle of (what should have been) my favourite scene from the episode may have made me look at it less favourably. Especially given what was sacrificed to include more breasts.

I agree that reading and seeing are very different. I think that tone crosses over though. Saying someone is naked as setting the scene can be carried over into film by the way a scene is shot. The way the Dany or the Tyrion scene was shot would be the equivalent of one of those pulp airport books with a couple of pages dedicated to description of bodies. GRRM does that maybe twice in the series so far. So while i agree there's lots of sex and nudity in the books i see it as different types.

[Xenophon]

Maybe i'm overreacting, i've only seen it once and the Tyrion scene coming in the middle of (what should have been) my favourite scene from the episode may have made me look at it less favourably. Especially given what was sacrificed to include more breasts.

I agree that reading and seeing are very different. I think that tone crosses over though. Saying someone is naked as setting the scene can be carried over into film by the way a scene is shot. The way the Dany or the Tyrion scene was shot would be the equivalent of one of those pulp airport books with a couple of pages dedicated to description of bodies. GRRM does that maybe twice in the series so far. So while i agree there's lots of sex and nudity in the books i see it as different types.

Agreed 100%. I don't remember how exactly the Tyrion scene was described in the book, but I doubt it was like what we saw on TV, where whatever we were supposed to learn about his character and relationship with Jaime was completely overshadowed by the whore parade.

[Nichole]

I really enjoyed the first episode and even watched it a second time. Unfortunately, my husband is out of town right now and I was looking forward to watching with him since he has not read the books. But, a friend of mine has not read the books but her husband has and apparently she would have been lost with out him. Now, Sunday can't get here soon enough!

And welcome to all the newcomers. I really want to hear your opinions about the show so please stick around.

[aimlessgun]

It really was quite odd that they didn't have the nudity for Cat/Ned and Jaime/Cersei. I would much rather have had them use their 'nudity budget' there instead of on Tyrion's whore, Dothraki women, and a long shot of Dany getting into a bath.

I thought the first episode was way too choppy. The only reason I understood what was going on was because I read the books. I'm going to watch it with my partner later and I can already tell that she's going to be asking loads of questions. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't like it because of that. It might get to the point where we wait for several episodes before making her watch them back to back. It felt that sparse with information. I understand why it was but I still think it'll be tough on new viewers.

Hmm that might be a big part of the reason things felt off to me. Like a bunch of snapshots ripped out of a larger story that the books tell. There's so much that I know I'm not being shown that it tickles the corners of my brain.

[Wras]

I watched it with my parents.

My mother actually liked it enough that she asked for the books, so there's another fan!

My dad was confused at the end and I was like, "They're twins". And he's like 'UGH', but he liked it too.

[Xenophon]

It really was quite odd that they didn't have the nudity for Cat/Ned and Jaime/Cersei. I would much rather have had them use their 'nudity budget' there instead of on Tyrion's whore, Dothraki women, and a long shot of Dany getting into a bath.

Jamie/Cersei, yes. Cat/Ned, no. There's really no need for Ned and Cat to be naked in that scene. It adds nothing, and would distract enormously from what's actually going on. With Jamie/Cersei, I agree completely. I would have made the discovery even more shocking.

[Lazarus]

I find it rather funny that this thread is stuck on the sex scenes... But I admit I have issues with it myself... I gree with this:

Jamie/Cersei, yes. Cat/Ned, no. There's really no need for Ned and Cat to be naked in that scene. It adds nothing, and would distract enormously from what's actually going on. With Jamie/Cersei, I agree completely. I would have made the discovery even more shocking.

Even though the scene with Cat/Ned in the bedroom did in fact describer her as getting out of bed in front of Lewin with no clothes on, it doesn't serve any purpose for the film...

With Ceirce/Jaime you have to show the incestuous relationship and show it in a way that it is obvious this has been going on for a long time - The plot demands it...

One thing i am a little peeved about, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I con't recall Tyrion running immediately to sample the whores or Winterfell before he went to the castle... If I'm wrong, do correct me, but it just cheapened the film for me - In this respect HBO seems to be staffed with lonely adolescents who are ruled by their hormones... Yes we all know about sex and we all think its a wonderful thing - Thank you, God, for the sex - But for crissakes to insert it (no pun intended) in the story when its not necessary?

As to the doggie position controversy - With the Dothraki, I think Martin made it clear that was theur way - Maybe we should say it was the Horsey position - And Dany introduced Drogo to some other more intimate arrangements... As to Ceirce/Jaime, again correct me if I'm wrong, the book decribes them as Jaime being behind her but i alwats got the impression they were standing - Admittedly not a position that is easy for all men, but Jaime is known for his swordmanship, is he not?

Little things like this were obvious in the book - Why the directors decided to change them for the film I cannot begin to speculate on... Sometimes I wonder if they really read the book or read the Cliff Notes...

[ElAguila]

I have been a member for a while but have not posted much. I wanted to say I thought they did a good job with episode 1. I know that people usually love or absolutely hate shows that are book conversions. A lot of people forget that there is quite a difference between reading a book and reading a script. I thought the episode did not change any major themes of the book. I am a little baffled that sex seems to be the focus for a lot of people. To me the sex seemed incidental and only served to reinforce time period. We are looking at a world equivalent to our own middle ages.

[Bronn Stone]

I thought Momoa sounded more like a Pacific Islander than either an Arab or a Klingon. Every time I hear him speak Dothraki, I think it is the prelude to a Haka.

With Eddard and Catelyn being aged up, I think the decision to omit their nude scene wasn't a bad one. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Ms. Fairley has a no-nudity clause in her contract.

Theon and Viserys comparison - very mild spoiler

With the interviews I've seen so far, the one casting 'change' I would make would be to have Harry Lloyd play Theon. Harry's devotion to the series is clear and Theon is a bigger role down the road.