[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion

[MindLikeWarp]

They are, they're with it, and the women in the first episode seemed to be well in line with that ideal. And I agree with your second point as well - the initial love scene with Dany shows the half-way normal, decent guy in Drogo, who up to then had been a silent and entirely imposing figure. The rest is collateral damage - the Dothraki make a living robbin' and stealin', and it's not really portrayed as good or bad, just a fact of life.

That's how I read it. But I could have missed a few things, I haven't read the first book in a while. But that is pretty much how I took it.

[lacuna]

“He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.

“So he did,” the man said.

Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”

“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

And in ACOK, between Tyrion and Cersei:

"It was Jaime who threw him from that window, not me. For love, he said, as if that would please me. It was a stupid thing to do, and dangerous besides, but when did our sweet brother ever stop to think?"

"The boy saw you", Tyrion pointed out.

"He was a child. I could have scared him into silence."

Although Cersei isn't entirely objective here, so...

[Sherrit]

It was in ASOS when Jaime mentions the whole Bran pushing (I believe), and Cercei says that she never wanted him to do it.

Cercei wanted to scare Bran into silence and felt bad about the whole thing. Later, I think Jaime feels a little regret as well.

[Ser Johan of Pennybridge]

In Book 3 it's mentioned in a Jaime POV that Cersei had given Jaime no end of grief for having thrown Bran from the window, that she believed they would be able to scare him into silence:

Thank you, that's what I was looking for!

[Spionkop]

And in ACOK, between Tyrion and Cersei:

Although Cersei isn't entirely objective here, so...

Cersie is lying, she wanted Bran dead, she's a far more callous and selfish person than Jaime.

[awesome possum]

Drogo had called his khalasar to attend him and they had come, forty thousand Dothraki warriors and uncounted numbers of women, children, and slaves.

Thanks for the clarification!

[Ser Greguh]

Cersie is lying, she wanted Bran dead, she's a far more callous and selfish person than Jaime.

She's callous and selfish, no doubt, but the reason for her not wanting Bran dead was more pragmatic than any sense of morality worming its way to the surface. A Bran that has been truly frightened into silence poses no problems for her or her family; a dead Bran brings all sorts of unwelcome attention and questions (of course, the third option, a Bran shoved from a window but that didn't quite die, is the worst possible outcome for her).

[Spionkop]

She's callous and selfish, no doubt, but the reason for her not wanting Bran dead was more pragmatic than any sense of morality worming its way to the surface. A Bran that has been truly frightened into silence poses no problems for her or her family; a dead Bran brings all sorts of unwelcome attention and questions (of course, the third option, a Bran shoved from a window but that didn't quite die, is the worst possible outcome for her).

She doesn't plan, the majority of her schemes have been reactions the one time she felt she was in control and Joffery took it away from her along with neds head. She panicked she was scared and she wanted Jaime to push bran out the window, so he did. Everything else after that is her trying to justify her actions self denial.

Sorry I'm thinking about this far too deeply here.

[Tywin's bastard]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the shot in Ned's chambers, where the camera focuses on Ned while Catelyn and Luwyn are arguing behind him about whether or not he should go to King's Landing, framed in such a way that they were quite literally the angel and the devil on the shoulder. Of course, this being not about good and evil, you're not really supposed to be sure which is the angel and which is the devil, or if that description at all applies. I thought it was a fantastic, wonderful quiet little shot.

I agree that it was very well done and it's a shame that there's not more discussion on things like this and that it's instead clouded by less interesting comparisons of details compared to the book. I personally find it more interesting to focus on what the TV medium can give us, rather than what it can't (but we already have since the books exist).

[TerraPrime]

Re: MindlikeWarp

Also it showed a different view toward someone like Dany who they didn't conquer, but was offered as a gift of allegiance. I just thought the fact that he didn't, despite what else was seen, showed there was more to them. A positive. Of course there were plenty of negatives, but at least the leader wasn't a "full blown" savage. It softened the whole Dothraki when I read it, not making them all romanticized but far less savage, than the typical literary savages, which before that they seemed fully to be.

I never got the impression from the books that the Dothraki are anything other than the typical conquering horde, a la the Mongols. I never got the impression that they are soft in any way. Certainly, Drogo would be no stranger to taking any conquered women he wanted. That he didn't outright rape his wife (but is there a reasonable doubt that he would not have if Daenerys had continued to resist?) does not make his culture any less savage. YMMV.

Re: Spionkop

Cersie is lying, she wanted Bran dead, she's a far more callous and selfish person than Jaime.

My thought on this, as well. Cercei was trying to make herself look good by white-washing her own plans after the fact. What Jaimie did was the right thing to do, for a couple who's cheating on the King and committing incest. If Cercei really had thought that she could have scared Bran into keeping his silence forever then she's even more stupid that I thought.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

The establishing shot of the reception does show the Dothraki stretching out into the countryside, suggesting that Drogo brought the whole khalassar with him, though I definitely agree that in the subsequent scenes, the budget seams showed a little (as they did in the rather obvious greenscreen of Bran's first climbing scene). To me that's minor quibble, and didn't really damage the scene as a whole, which was more about Dany's fear and the alien and savage nature of the people she was being forced into. Not the strongest scene of the pilot but not the weakest.

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the shot in Ned's chambers, where the camera focuses on Ned while Catelyn and Luwyn are arguing behind him about whether or not he should go to King's Landing, framed in such a way that they were quite literally the angel and the devil on the shoulder. Of course, this being not about good and evil, you're not really supposed to be sure which is the angel and which is the devil, or if that description at all applies. I thought it was a fantastic, wonderful quiet little shot.

You're right- I had to rewatch it again just now. There's a brief moment in the upper right corner where you can see several hundred more Dothraki milling around. As you say, minor quibble, but it was one that stood out for me.

As for the angel/devil scene - coincidentally it's immediately before the wedding reception. Excellent framing- especially the pan from Cat reminding everyone about Rickard/Brandon to Luwin pointing out it was a different time, different king.

[Huan]

- I found it very difficult to understand the lines delivered by Rory McCann (Sandor) when he spoke. It may have helped if they had used a tighter two-shot of him and Dinklage, rather than a wider shot of them that was taken from farther away.

I too wondered why that wasn't a tighter shot. The scene, although brief, helped set up Sandor's feelings about Tyrion, although I couldn't help wondering whether a casual conversation like that would have ever happened given the Hound's contempt for the Imp.

[Xenophon]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the shot in Ned's chambers, where the camera focuses on Ned while Catelyn and Luwyn are arguing behind him about whether or not he should go to King's Landing, framed in such a way that they were quite literally the angel and the devil on the shoulder. Of course, this being not about good and evil, you're not really supposed to be sure which is the angel and which is the devil, or if that description at all applies. I thought it was a fantastic, wonderful quiet little shot.

Yeah, that was some very nice camera work. Both that the opening sequence did a great job of visually underscoring the larger themes of the show. They don't need to tell you that moral choices are not clear-cut or that the world is threatened by the dangerous and magical things lurking on its edges because those two shots do such a good job of showing it to the audience.

[Arataniello]

Another little minor annoyance was the enormous amount of cloth they piled around the neck to Maester Luwin's robe. I always pictures the maesters as wearing a simple gray robe, much like the one we see Petyr wearing in the clips we have seen of Littlefinger. How can people see a maester's chain under all that cloth?!

[Kalbear]

She doesn't plan, the majority of her schemes have been reactions the one time she felt she was in control and Joffery took it away from her along with neds head. She panicked she was scared and she wanted Jaime to push bran out the window, so he did. Everything else after that is her trying to justify her actions self denial.

I think that's doing Cersei a fairly big disservice. I doubt she cares at all whether Bran dies, but she certainly could have scared Bran (especially at 7, and especially being the queen of the realm). She says this because she's likely done similar things before. She was scared - but she didn't want Jaime to do that. She wanted Jaime to do...something.

One of the things I like AFFC least for is the stupidfying of Cersei. I still believe that she didn't get this idiotic until AFFC, and before this she was at least partially competent if not super clever.

[MindLikeWarp]

Re: MindlikeWarp

I never got the impression from the books that the Dothraki are anything other than the typical conquering horde, a la the Mongols. I never got the impression that they are soft in any way. Certainly, Drogo would be no stranger to taking any conquered women he wanted. That he didn't outright rape his wife (but is there a reasonable doubt that he would not have if Daenerys had continued to resist?) does not make his culture any less savage. YMMV.

Re: Spionkop

My thought on this, as well. Cercei was trying to make herself look good by white-washing her own plans after the fact. What Jaimie did was the right thing to do, for a couple who's cheating on the King and committing incest. If Cercei really had thought that she could have scared Bran into keeping his silence forever then she's even more stupid that I thought.

But he didn't conquer Dany. Conquered women? Probably. The Westerosi armies would rape women they conquered as well, but they wouldn't outright rape their wives. I think not outright raping his wife did make him and his culture less savage than they initially seemed. It showed there is some respect for some women, same as in Westeros. Wives, noble women? (though Lollys would beg to differ). Smallfolk would probably be raped by a conquering Westerosi army.

There is reasonable doubt as to whether he would've forced himself if she continued to resist, but he didn't do it after the initial resistance, so I'm going with he wouldn't have. That's how I took it from the book anyway.

[Wulfnor]

I don't really get the credits. They're very pretty, but i'm not sure what they're trying to get at with the - rather un-medieval - gears. Cashing in on the steampunk craze?

I think your a bit off base. The title sequence with the different geared places/cities going up, was meant to illustrate the political machinations that are going on at all levels within the society of the 7 Kingdoms of Westeros.

[Huan]

Another little minor annoyance was the enormous amount of cloth they piled around the neck to Maester Luwin's robe. I always pictures the maesters as wearing a simple gray robe, much like the one we see Petyr wearing in the clips we have seen of Littlefinger. How can people see a maester's chain under all that cloth?!

To me it looked like the chain was really long and went down to around his waist, with large links. Not tight around the neck at all.

[Tywin's bastard]

I think that's doing Cersei a fairly big disservice. I doubt she cares at all whether Bran dies, but she certainly could have scared Bran (especially at 7, and especially being the queen of the realm). She says this because she's likely done similar things before. She was scared - but she didn't want Jaime to do that. She wanted Jaime to do...something.

One of the things I like AFFC least for is the stupidfying of Cersei. I still believe that she didn't get this idiotic until AFFC, and before this she was at least partially competent if not super clever.

I agree with you. She thought there was another way and killing Bran was certainly not a flawless way out. Jaime acted without thinking it through, like he always does.

And I also think you are correct in that Cersei gets increasingly paranoid and confused as things go against her. AFFC does a great job of showing someone going down a spiral of madness for fear for her children and so on and there's no reason to believe that spiral hasn't gone on previously. I think the people saying that she's stupid has a pretty simple way of looking at that character.

[awesome possum]

One of the things I like AFFC least for is the stupidfying of Cersei. I still believe that she didn't get this idiotic until AFFC, and before this she was at least partially competent if not super clever.

I think an argument could be made that it wasn't until AFFC that she really began her decline because she no longer had anyone to rely on. Her father dead, her son who she saw herself in dead, her glorious brother maimed and disinterested in her, her less glorious brother on the loose and gunning for her (or so she believes), even her steadfast uncle tells her to piss off. She has lost pretty much every support block she's ever had and is now revealing the spoiled, arrogant, paranoid, stupidly short-sighted woman beneath it all.