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Ran

[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion

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I can't believe there hasn't been more angst here about Drogo raping Dany. How can she possibly have the kind of relationship she has with him in the books if he starts out by raping her? For chrissake. The only reason I bought in to Dany buying into the Dothraki stuff was because Drogo was her Sun and Stars. She loved him passionately, and he loved her back. I can't fathom that relationship being started by him savagely raping her. Him basically waiting until she gave him permission was the reason that relationship made sense. Without it... I don't get it at all.

Totally in agreement with this. While in general I thought that the first episode was wonderfully done, this is the one thing that stands out for me as being utterly wrong. It makes no sense whatsoever.

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FFS, the Drogo raping Dany vs. the tenderness to willingness shown in the books makes total sense for the series on screen because it provides for a deeper character arc for both Dany and Drogo. It's pretty fucking simple.

You're joking, right? How could she ever develop trust, let alone a romantic relationship, with Drogo after that?

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Man this has been a wonderful hour. I bet GRRM is cheering right now.

The costumes are stunning! I love the way they made Sandor Clegane out.

I loved the warning Daenerys got as she went into the bath - so perfect.

GRRM should be outright fistpumping it now.

I liked the small scene where they showed Sandor without the helmet!

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I loved the Winterfell scenes, and the opener at the wall. The intro credits makes the transition from the beheading to the deserter's capture much better than it had seemed in the preview.

The cast is amazing.

But the shirtless scene w/ the 3 boys? That just seemed so hokey and obviously contrived.

And all of the Dothraki scenes just seem really cheap and phony, like something from a cheesy soap opera.

But despite these qualms i really really enjoyed it, and i hope that it does well. I really wondered how folks not familiar w/ the books will take it, but i've had several friends post on Facebook about enjoying the opener... so that seems a good sign.

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Am I the only one who took one look at Viserys & thought 'I bet there are some Malfoys in the Targaryen family tree?' :lol:

:agree:

Ahahaaa

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I disagree. It makes Drogo very one dimensional and Dany a Stockholm syndrome victim. Assuming the rest goes along with the book. Perhaps they are re-doing the entire relationship, in which case I will rescind my displeasure, but for now, no I don't think it improved either character arc.

I can't disagree more. Drogo showed a barbaric sense of tenderness that visually made sense. Trying to turn him into some onscreen casanova would have been totally unbelievable. Even in the books, Dany needs time and the advice (and demonstration) from her handmaidens to completely embrace the sexual relationship with Drogo. Her tears made her seem like a rape victim, but for the time and place, his actions were determined, not brutal. I don't think the writers will have any problem moving their relationship to the "Sun and Stars" phase. She still doesn't even speak Dothraki. And it didn't happen overnight in the books either.

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Another piece of good foreshadowing was Robert asking Ned how his boar-spearing was and Ned retorting it was still better than Robert's. Nice.

The final Dany/Drogo scene seems to be what we will be arguing about for awhile. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

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Another thing to add is that I think Joffrey was perfectly cast.

How do I know? Because as soon as he appeared on my tv I wanted to punch him in the face repeatedly.

I actually wanted to slap Sansa when she went "It's the only thing I ever wanted!"

Nonononono! D:

But good acting :o

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You're joking, right? How could she ever develop trust, let alone a romantic relationship, with Drogo after that?

I think they want to show a change in Drogo's character. As nice as it was to believe that Drogo was kind to Dany from the first moment it might have seemed odd to non-readers that a hardened killer like Drogo who'd probably had no problem taking women in the past would be able to restrain himself now. Especially considering the language difference. It also would be hard for some to believe that Dany would get over her own fear in time to consummate her marriage. It's a bit different without the inner monologue to show this. Perhaps they could have had Drogo not consummate the marriage at all at that moment when she started crying, but I'm not too broken up by how they did it. I'm 100% with the Sword of Morning.

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that went REALLY fast

I wish they had made the Drogo/Dany scene a little bit closer to how the book played it out...to where it could at least seem consensual

My wife commented on this too; she noted that there was a sweetness to the scene in the book which was completely missing in the TV version.

Oh wow. I won't even try to guess how non-readers would feel about that episode, but I loved it. The pacing felt quite a bit rushed though. The choice of doggy style for Jaime and Cersei felt odd though. I think keeping the scene more like the book, where he's fucking her standing up against the wall would have worked better.

I agree; especially after we just had Drogo taking Dany the same way, having Jamie and Cersei doing it doggy style seemed repetitive.

Least was the guy playing Illyrio. I liked him in V For Vendetta but he just seemed a bit off. Too bad Ian McNiece couldn't have played it.

Oh, was he up for the role? Or did he play it in the first version of the pilot? He would have been great!

Loved Arya and Daenerys the most! My favorite characters in the books, also. Peter Dinklage is almost too attractive to be Tyrion, but he has the attitude down perfect. So pleased* with the first episode! :D

Almost? He's an Adonis compared to the way Tyrion is described in the book. I'm sure he'll give a great performance, but he's nowhere near as ugly as the novels' Tyrion.

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I can't believe there hasn't been more angst here about Drogo raping Dany. How can she possibly have the kind of relationship she has with him in the books if he starts out by raping her? For chrissake. The only reason I bought in to Dany buying into the Dothraki stuff was because Drogo was her Sun and Stars. She loved him passionately, and he loved her back. I can't fathom that relationship being started by him savagely raping her. Him basically waiting until she gave him permission was the reason that relationship made sense. Without it... I don't get it at all.

I'm right there with you on this! I don't see how raping her on their wedding night, instead of the slow build up to consent, properly portrays the start of their story. Yet at the same time I can't imagine we will have to wait very long for it to be remedied.

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The final Dany/Drogo scene seems to be what we will be arguing about for awhile. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.

Agreed. I'm on the fence as well. I don't think Drogo came across as brutal, but Dany just seemed so fragile that the contrast is really what hits home.

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I am probably in the minority here but this is what I really liked:

2. The Things I Do for Love: The most important scene in the show almost failed for me. For starters, in the book, Jaime saves Bran before he tries to kill him (showing Jaime's duality). But moreso, Jaime treats this cavalierly even for Jaime Lannister. In retrospect, Jaime always stated that he knew what was at stake when he pushed Bran from the window; in the show, Jaime treats it as nothing more than a nuisance. Now, Jaime IS that arrogant, but in the books- I always got the sense that Jaime knew how horrible this was and knew what was going to happen- and did it anyway. In the show ... he didn't even look at Bran.

What I did not like:

1 (and only) "And which one of you was a marksman at age ten... other than my daughter who is age nine." Seriously- I know they have to make Arya into a tom-girl who can kill, etc, but ... no really, she does not train and if she does its in secret, etc, but she can nail a bulls-eye first try. Its called ham-handed and it showed.

I feel that the pushing Bran thing will have a much larger impact in the next episode. The preview for "What's Next" had Cersei asking him "What was [he] thinking?" whereas Jaime replies with "I was thinking about us."

Or something to that effect anyway.

I personally I liked the Arya scene. Some lightheartedness before all the events became really serious maybe?

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The only thing I wanted was more Hound. Was the entire courtyard dueling scene taken out? Isn't that where Tyrion was supposed to slap Joffery with the Hound watching?

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Almost? He's an Adonis compared to the way Tyrion is described in the book. I'm sure he'll give a great performance, but he's nowhere near as ugly as the novels' Tyrion.

I disagree. ANY dwarf, especially compared to Jamie, is going to be thought of as ugly by his peers. (We are much more enlightened :D )

Plus, he'll get uglier when they cut off his nose. :P

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I think you are all missing the most important foul up. Catelyn is definitely more attractive than that!

haha...just kidding...kind of.

I loved the show, but I think non-readers would have a lot of questions and hopefully future episodes will answer them. In the book we got a ton of info from the crypt scene, but on the show...not much to say the least.

Why is Vicerys the "rightful king" As readers we all know that, but just watching that episode we have no idea. Why does Robert hate them so much? Why did he Rebel in the first place? Did they even mention the Rebellion?

They nailed Sansa though, I already hate her. I already love Arya...again lol

Someone else mentioned the shaving scene with Theon, Robb, and Jon and that was awkwardly forced.

Most of the characters are dead on though, great casting. When I first heard they were making this I wondered if they would ease up on the insest, and while it is gross I am happy they are staying true to the storyline.

Long story short though, I loved it!

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I think they want to show a change in Drogo's character. As nice as it was to believe that Drogo was kind to Dany from the first moment it might have seemed odd to non-readers that a hardened killer like Drogo who'd probably had no problem taking women in the past would be able to restrain himself now. Especially considering the language difference. It also would be hard for some to believe that Dany would get over her own fear in time to consummate her marriage. It's a bit different without the inner monologue to show this. Perhaps they could have had Drogo not consummate the marriage at all at that moment when she started crying, but I'm not too broken up by how they did it. I'm 100% with the Sword of Morning.

He doesn't have to be Casanova. The book did it fine. There wasn't dialogue beyond "No? No? No? Yes!". It would've taken maybe another minute or two of screen time. In the book, he wasn't waiting for Dany to fall in love with him before he fucked her. He just waited for her to accept it and accept him. And that was HUGE. To just omit that is... bad, IMO.

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I really feel for the princess, I do. What Viserys did to her made me recoil, but the Drogo scene was . . . well, even harder to bear. Forcibly stripped twice in the same episode? It's good that she has the inner strength to take it all and grow, but her treatment is just awful. I mean, it's not too dissimilar from the books (I'll agree with the person who said the Drogo business seems a lot less tender this tiem around) but it's just harder to handle on a visual medium.

I hope they don't turn her into a sex symbol, or something. This isn't to say I disapprove of the nudity per se: it happens in the book often enough, and in Daenerys's case, the violation of her bodily integrity reflects her own lack of personal agency vis-a-vis Viserys and (at first) Drogo and it's an important part of her growth to see her take charge. I just hope it doesn't ever lose track of that to become merely "sexy."

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I am a huge fan of the series, and my wife has never read them. I've been talking about how excited I was for this show to premiere for months now, and she knows I obsessively check GRRM's page to find out when the next book will be coming out. Basically, she knew she was expected to watch this with me when it came out(and its not a stretch to get her to watch it, since she likes fantasy and scifi film and television, as well as comics and books).

She brought an outside perspective to this series, and had some thoughts that I hadn't even considered, especially since this is so close to my heart. She was majorly offended at how the Dothraki were handled. They are portrayed here as a savage group of primitives who rape and kill on a whim. And since this is the only view of a different ethnic group, it is offensive to people looking for an equal portrayal of cultures. It was hard to argue against this view point, especially since the culture was changed from how it appears in the books. I never got any racist undertones from the books, so it was weird for me to hear that point of view, but I can definitely see it now from their portrayal in the show. Any thoughts on this?

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I loved the way this began...so surreal seeing something I have been reading for 11 years make it to my TV screen. I kept telling my fiancee "I can't believe this is happening"!

The Dany Drogo scene did not bother me....he is a frickin' barbarian and she is his wife...what do you think is gonna happen? It is not like historically the consummation of weddings in the novels are all super honey sweet and other couple have found love. I thought the scene was just fine.

Really excited for the future of this!

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