[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion, Mark II

[Brude]

It was the throne room. You can just see the Iron Throne over Jon Arryn's body. I was a little surprised it wasn't in a sept but I think it was done thematic purposes.

It was done so they didn't have to spend another $1 million or $2 million dollars building an indoor Great Sept of Baelor set that would only get used for a single, 2 minute scene in Season 1. Besides, the throne room is a reasonable place one might have The Hand of the King lying in State. We put Presidents and Speakers of the House and such under the dome of the Capitol Building in DC.

[Josquius]

Oh, and never mentioned earlier, who was it playing Illyrio?

I said I recognised him and my mam claimed he was the guy from Knightmare. Checking up though it doesn't match.

2) NCW can't do a British accent properly. Throughout, there was an obvious (to my ear, anyway) Danish twang to it that prevented me from enjoying his scenes all that much. It also felt like he mis-delivered some pretty critical lines - "or is it the other way round?" was mumbled slightly, so that it didn't have the humourous effect it could have had, and I'm pretty sure they could have done "the things I do for love" better. There was no wist or wonder or regret or surprise or any emotion, really. And without that, the line doesn't make any sense. I always read it as Jaime having a mixture of surprise and resignation as he realised just how far he was willing to go for Cersei, but none of that was conveyed by NCW's delivery.

I forgot to mention this earlier.

Yes, he sounded wrong. Not so much Danish as American- but then when most Scandinavians and Dutch speak English they do it with a sort of off-American.

[Maltaran]

Roger Allam is his name, and you're not the only one to think he looks like Treguard.

[Valmy]

So what I gathered plot wise: Sean Bean is busy being cold blooded cool in the north. Has a few kids. Some bro is killed by incestuous brother and sister (who is married to some guy) they go up to ask Sean Bean about being their right hand man. Meanwhile, two grown up kids from Village of the Damned get fucked by a large Mortal Kombat character in order to attack some kingdom.

Is this right?

Glad to see the basics of the plot were effectively communicated ^_^

[Ormond]

The norm is 12-14 today, but can vary from 9-17 in the most extreme cases. If we add your fact that the periods have come earlier and earlier with time (or probably rather with better living standards) we find that complaining about Sansa hasn't had her first yet at 13 is an extremely odd nit-pick.

And the same thing has happened with male puberty. Beard growth on average starts at a much earlier age today than it did in past centuries. In ancient Rome, there was a celebration when a young man first shaved, and surviving records show this ceremony usually happening around age 21, which would be extremely late for a man to start shaving in modern times.

The "aging" of the children from the books is the best change the writers of the TV series could have made, IMHO. Someone mentioned above how GRRM himself regretted his decision to drop the five year gap because of how young it will make Bran, Arya, and Sansa when they do some of the things he has planned for them. This will make things much worse, but he already had been really unrealistic with the ages he has kids doing and thinking certain things in AGOT and the other early books. This even extends to very minor characters -- in A Storm of Swords he has Davos' son starting to shave at around age 12, which would be unusually young for modern times, and incredibly young for a medieval world.

I think GRRM took the idea that living through extremely traumatic events makes kids "grow up fast" way too literally when he created his characters. I think that children in these situations may seem more adult emotionally than we expect children to be because they aren't as naive as most kids are. But living through trauma doesn't make kids "grow up faster" intellectually. (Actually there is a theory that girls go through menarche a bit sooner on average when living in very violent environments, with our genes programming us to reproduce early if chances of death at a young age are high. But the influences of poor nutrition and rampant childhood infectious disease in delaying puberty that one finds in pre-modern times would have been a much larger factor.)

[JackintheBeanstalk]

As for your theory (the iron swords in the crypt will be useful as a weapons cache against the Others later in the books), I doubt it. There's little difference between iron and steel and both are forged in a similar manner so one shouldn't be more linked to fire than the other. The Others are not spirits of the dead and we've already found something they are vulnerable to (obsidian) so I doubt the iron swords have any relevance. If they were to play a big part I also suspect GRRM would have brought it up.

Actually, we have evidence that steel is NOT effective against the White Walkers (duel in prologue, where WW chuckles while his weapon steadily freezes SerWR's steel blade until it simply shatters) and in Jon's confrontation with the wight in L.C. Mormont's tower (where his steel blade severs the wight's hand, and the hand continues to attack, he viciously slices the wight across the face and the wight doesn't react whatsoever). He eventually wins this fight with a burning curtain.

I would also submit that GRRM has brought this up as much as he hints about other clues in his books, which is to say, very, very subtly. In addition to the two outright confrontations where steel is proven ineffectual, we have Old Nan, in one of her stories, tell Bran that the Others are afraid of Iron and Fire. We have the specific description of the iron swords binding the Kings in the Crypt. Jon actually has a dream in which these Kings are free and moving around (which is possible if the swords are removed). These clues are sort of pounding the iron nail, IMO. He even gives it an extra little tap: When Robb leaves to go south and Rickon finds out he is leaving, he goes a little nuts, hides in the crypt, and brandishes one of the iron swords at the guards who come to fetch him. A little bitty kid brandishing a rusty, but still heavy iron sword?? Seems farfetched. But it happened.

*edited for spelling.

[Tywin's bastard]

Actually, we have evidence that steel is NOT effective against the White Walkers (duel in prologue, where WW chuckles while his weapon steadily freezes SerWR's steel blade until it simply shatters) and in Jon's confrontation with the wight in L.C. Mormont's tower (where his steel blade severs the wight's hand, and the hand continues to attack, he viciously slices the wight across the face and the wight doesn't react whatsoever). He eventually wins this fight with a burning curtain.

I would also submit that GRRM has brought this up as much as he hints about other clues in his books, which is to say, very, very subtly. In addition to the two outright confrontations where steel is proven ineffectual, we have Old Nan, in one of her stories, tell Bran that the Others are afraid of Iron and Fire. We have the specific description of the iron swords binding the Kings in the Crypt. Jon actually has a dream in which these Kings are free and moving around (which is possible if the swords are removed). These clues are sort of pounding the iron nail, IMO. He even gives it an extra little tap: When Robb leaves to go south and Rickon finds out he is leaving, he goes a little nuts, hides in the crypt, and brandishes one of the iron swords at the guards who come to fetch him. A little bitty kid brandishing a rusty, but still heavy iron sword?? Seems farfetched. But it happened.

*edited for spelling.

I already argued from the point that steel is ineffective against The Others and my point is that steel is just iron with some carbon content (<2%). There's no reason to think that iron has anything to do with heat that steal hasn't.

The important thing we've learned about both The Others and the wights are that they are vulnerable to heat. The wight was set on fire and died and the Other that was killed was stabbed by obsidian, which is volcanic glass (the link to fire/heat is obvious). My point is that iron does not play with the weaknesses we've been given at all and we know that a human hero had to seek out the Children of the Forest the last time The Others marched on Westeros because men had nothing to stop them with. The Children didn't use metals so they wouldn't be using iron against them, they would just use their obsidian weapons.

I'm not saying that you're wrong because that's impossible to say until we've read the books, but I don't think anything points towards that iron has anything to do with the others.

[Isabella Stark]

Of course it's a fictional world regardless, so maybe menstrual cycles are delayed in Westeros!

In Westseros, Mentrual cycles, like the seasons are very irregular. You'll have long stretches of no period (without being pregnant), and when it comes, it lasts for weeks. ;)

Also, I really liked Daenearys's hair at her wedding.

[Xenophon]

I already argued from the point that steel is ineffective against The Others and my point is that steel is just iron with some carbon content (<2%). There's no reason to think that iron has anything to do with heat that steal hasn't.

It's all magic anyway, so that hardly matters. And if Old Nan did say the Others are afraid of iron, then that's probably significant. Also the dragons are described as having a connection to both fire and iron, so it's not out of nowhere.

Anyway, my main reason for posting was that I spoke to a friend who had never read the books, but watched the show, and I wanted to give his take:

He liked the show. Said it was a little confusing at first, but generally pretty clear. His first (snarky) comment was that he didn't think there was enough incest. His main question was how Viserys and Dany were connected back to the main plot. He got that they were an exiled royal family, but it wasn't perfectly clear to him that Robert had usurped them recently. His favorite character was Viserys, who he referred to as the "evil blond douchebag".

Some of the things that I thought were confusing didn't bother him at all. In particular, he had no problem with how Will got south of the Wall. He said he figured he just ran back through one of those tunnels and kept running.

[JackintheBeanstalk]

I'm not saying that you're wrong because that's impossible to say until we've read the books, but I don't think anything points towards that iron has anything to do with the others.

That's alright, I'm not really trying to argue, but I feel that I have defended my theory at last, rather than just throwing it out there without supporting evidence.

[Kalbear]

If this thread has any guide the Others will be afraid of Iron, Fire and Menses.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

To be honest, I wouldn't really blame them.

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

New to this community but not the books. I actually came to the books after all four had already been published, so I didn't have to wait until I finished the fourth one. Then I had to wait four years!

Anyway, I was at first disappointed with the show. I think part of it was elevated expectations (I should have learned my lesson with Star Wars Episode I!) and the other part was that I had followed it so closely that I had basically already seen half the episode. I had to stop myself last night because I started reading through the spoiler chapters for Dragons posted on this site, don't want to suffer the same disappointment.

After thinking about it, though, and reading through many of these posts, I have changed my mind. I was definitely focusing too much on what I didn't like as opposed to what I did like. And some of what I didn't like at first I have changed my stance on in retrospect. I've only been able to view it once since I don't have HBO, so all of this analysis is based on memory and is therefore subject to much error.

Here is my list:

Things I unexpectedly liked on first impression:

1. Viserys: His portrayal in the show, in my opinion, is a far more subtle and believable performance than what the books gave us. Seeing as how he was largely an ancillary character who is quickly gone, that was not really a problem, he doesn't need to be too nuanced, but I like what the actor has done with him and think it adds to the show.

2. Dany: An amazing actress who shows so much with just her face. I can't love this enough.

3. Bran/Arya: Great acting displayed by these kids and they seem to embody their respective characters, wouldn't change a thing about them.

4. NCW as Jaime: Didn't know too much about this actor, but I was blown away by his performance. For those complaining that he is too flippant, I think you forget just how flippant and arrogant Jaime was pre-Brienne. You are retroactively giving him more credit than he is due here because of his character development. I hated Jaime until after ASOS. "The things I do for love" was delivered exactly how I imagined it (discounting sexual positioning and the lack of dialogue (which is unnecessary since they established Jaime/Cersei's involvement in Arryn's death earlier)). I know the book says with loathing, but I don't think that means Jaime was really that upset about it. Even in his flashbacks on the subject, he never feels guilty for pushing Bran. He only regrets it because Cersei nags him about it, not because he feels bad. I don't think Jaime wouldn't have thought twice about what he did if it wasn't for Cersei. The way the line was delivered perfectly captures that dynamic.

5. Cersei: I wasn't expecting much from her, since Cersei is basically a one-dimensional scheming bitch in the first book (as portrayed by others). They way she is portrayed on screen gives her a lot of humanity that I never noticed until we started reading her point of view much later on. I think this is better for the format we are in, where you can't manage the viewpoint through which you see a character. It works in the books because Martin writes from first person point of view with each character, so you know that personal bias is introduced. It doesn't work that way with a TV show, where it is presented as unbiased third person perspective.

Things I expected to like and delivered:

1. Visuals, locations, effects, etc.

2. Ned and Robert: Both actors embody their characters and do a good job of portraying their close relationship.

3. Opening titles

Things I expected to like and fell flat:

1. Tyrion: I was all pumped for this, and maybe I raised my expectations too much. Also, it is early, so I'm sure he will grow on me as he is developed. I think he was just too frat boy for me, though, and his scene with Jon cut his best line, "Not all bastards need be dwarves" (would that line really have made the show go too long?). I'm hoping for more, but this first episode didn't do it for me.

2. The Prologue: Lots of needless changes that didn't add anything in terms of action, time saving or world development. I agree this could have been shortened to make more room for the rest of the episode. And Will getting away makes no sense whatsoever. He is KNEELING in the snow not 15 feet away from the Others. Maybe they let him live, but that seems implausible.

3. Finding the Direwolves: Not sure it could have been done better, but the scene didn't mesh with me very well. The dead stag on the road seemed fake, and why would they go off into the woods to find out what killed it? Why would they care? I think you could have done it in a more believable way, but not sure what that way is.

Things I didn't like at first but now do:

1. Dany and Drogo: Originally, I was in the "Hate this" camp. However, the more I read it, the more the book scene doesn't really make that much sense, even with the inner dialogue. I also don't think that this means their relationship can't become loving. I am now convinced this is better for the TV medium and I am glad they showed they are willing to change things that just won't work for TV (it is more willinglikely to be successful this way).

2. Cat: I didn't like her transformation from the book, but I think it works better with the limited time they are given. It is easier to have her always be opposed to Ned leaving than to have her flip-flop on the issue. I also now like the angel/devil on the shoulder bit, as it showcases the positives that the television medium can bring to the story. I still think Maester Luwin was too forward with Ned, but that is a minor thing.

Things I still don't like:

1. Tyrion's whorehouse scene: I just think that the four extra whores running in topless was gratuitous. The rest of the scene I am fine with, it establishes character, but that last part is obviously thrown in for thrills and unnecessary. If he had to give Tyrion four more women, why did they have to be milling around outside topless? I get why they did it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

2. The Dothraki wedding: It just seemed hokey, even though it was pretty accurate to the book. Don't know why the meat had to look rotten, nothing in the book says the Dothraki can't get fresh meat to eat. I understand Dany getting the "Wind" from Drogo was cut for time, but I felt it was important enough they could have cut something else, like bits of the prologue.

3. Robb: I don't know, he is nothing like I pictured him. I guess he didn't do a lot, but until I see more of him I just don't like him (and Robb was one of my favorite characters).

Things I'm on the fence about:

1. Jon Snow: I never liked the look of him from released photos, and his performance so far is average at best. Of course, it is hard to play an emotional teenager without coming across as stupid, just ask Hayden Christenson. As I recall, I didn't care much for Snow in the books either till he became his own man on the wall, so I am still pretty hopeful for his character.

2. The Hound: I totally missed his scene with Tyrion because I was distracted, but the helmet was a little fake looking (mainly due to the bouncing. If he is as unimposing as others describe then I will be disappointed, but I need to see more of him first to form a strong opinion.

edited for grammar

[Tywin's bastard]

He liked the show. Said it was a little confusing at first, but generally pretty clear. His first (snarky) comment was that he didn't think there was enough incest. His main question was how Viserys and Dany were connected back to the main plot. He got that they were an exiled royal family, but it wasn't perfectly clear to him that Robert had usurped them recently. His favorite character was Viserys, who he referred to as the "evil blond douchebag".

So what he didn't find was clear then was that king Aerys was killed when he was usurped?

That's alright, I'm not really trying to argue, but I feel that I have defended my theory at last, rather than just throwing it out there without supporting evidence.

That's good, I enjoyed reading what you wrote and figuring out if I personally felt it was likely or not. Feel free to gloat if you happen to be right. :)

[Xenophon]

So what he didn't find was clear then was that king Aerys was killed when he was usurped?

He didn't realize there was a king Aerys. I think he first thought Viserys actually was the king that was usurped, then realized that wasn't right, and then just wasn't sure how exactly he was connect to Robert et al.

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

So what he didn't find was clear then was that king Aerys was killed when he was usurped?

I imagine he didn't understand that they were the Targaryens, or who the Targaryens were (even if he heard Robert's quote, it is conceivable that he didn't make the connection that he was worried about them because they were the former royal family, they could have been some sort of evil monster or his arch rivals or something).

I thought the Targaryen connection was a little too quickly made in the episode, but there was enough there to lay the groundwork for future episodes.

[JackintheBeanstalk]

@ChrisPWildcat: Exceptionally nice writeup. I happen to agree with most of what you wrote, especially WRT Tyrion's whorehouse scene. Tyrion, while a serial cocksman, has always come across as a man who hooks up with one woman at a time, and treats her with genuine affection. Not a menage kind of guy. Oh well, small quibble, could very well be a device to plant one first impression of his character with the audience, only to swivel it around later, which is fated for a great number of these characters after all.

I didn't think the meat at the wedding looked rotten, just well cooked. I think Dany was a little startled by the flies, but hey, it's just an introduction to her new life, which will be lived for the most part outdoors.

[Xenophon]

5. Cersei: I wasn't expecting much from her, since Cersei is basically a one-dimensional scheming bitch in the first book (as portrayed by others). They way she is portrayed on screen gives her a lot of humanity that I never noticed until we started reading her point of view much later on. I think this is better for the format we are in, where you can't manage the viewpoint through which you see a character. It works in the books because Martin writes from first person point of view with each character, so you know that personal bias is introduced. It doesn't work that way with a TV show, where it is presented as unbiased third person perspective.

I don't remember Cersei from AGoT well at all, but I agree completely that for TV it works better to show her as a complex and somewhat sympathetic character. Her disgust/inability to control Robert's behavior was key to establishing the power dynamic between men and women in the show. And it was probably also the best way to show us the moral complexity in Ned's decision to support Robert. Rahter than just telling us that Robert is a bad king, Cersei shows us that he hurts his family and obviously has offended a powerful noble house that otherwise should have been among his strongest supporters. And perhaps most importantly, it helps make sense of her and Jaime. You can have the twincest be a complete surprise in the novels, where everything is in POV, but in a TV show, I think there needs to be some connection between it and the way the characters act in other scenes.

All in all, I thought Cersei was a great character in the show. If this is a major revision (as some people are saying), then it's one I approve of.

[Valmy]

Her disgust/inability to control Robert's behavior was key to establishing the power dynamic between men and women in the show.

How does being disgusted by your spouse and being unable to control him or her establish power dynamics? That sounds like a problem in many marriages across many different cultures.

[Lord Tywin]

Dany's bedding scene is just brutal even when I know it turned out for the best. For a modern woman, it is just hard to watch this sort of thing happening. Drogo is hot.

Come now, being uncomfortable watching a young teenage girl being denuded isn't the exclusive domain of women. This thirty-something (completely hetero) male squirmed a bit upon seeing her breast-baring scenes. I also recall being a little unsettled when, years ago, I read the Drogo-Dany sex scene in the novel.

Of course, my reaction could change if I found out the actress is much older than she looks...