[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion, Mark II

[arrowfan]

I loved the premiere. Seen it 3 times and have enjoyed it more with each viewing.

My only real concern is with opening scene (prologue of the book). I just can't figure out why they changed the scene from the book. Not only do we not have the dramatic scene of the kid hiding in the tree while the Others kill the rest of his scouting party, but we're left with a seriously un-explained escape by the kid.

In the pilot... the kid is on his knees within 10-15 feet of the Other. How did he escape sure death at the hands of the Others? Oh well.

And of course the Others look like wildlings. Hmmmph.

[Tywin's bastard]

My only complaint: Why did they have to have Jaime and Cersei going at it doggie style fully clothed?? That was literally the only kind of sex we saw all episode... I would have liked to see more of a contrast to the Dothraki stuff. They are actually lovers not just fuck buddies... Should have been more sensual...

I didn't find it to be extremely sensual in the book either. Cersei was saying no and Jaime was ignoring her and just kept on going until she gave in to the urge. Seemed more filled lust than sensuality so I don't think they were very wrong in the essence of it. The biggest reason they did it doggy style was probably that you could first wonder "hey, that's Jaime Lannister, I wonder who he's with?" and first after a while you see the shocking revelation.

[Daenerys]

I give the first episode an 8 out of 10. Really hard episode to pull off perfectly, no doubt, but overall very well done (and you have to give them some credit just for getting it done at all). I also watched the first episode of Camelot out of curiosity and it's a joke. Just seems very insubstantial and frivolous by comparison. Watching both of these, underneath you can really sense the master storytelling powers of Martin vs. amateur "writers" who are out to create "exciting television fantasy".

Best things:

-- Michelle Fairley really impressed me. I was worried about her, but she was fantastic, I totally buy her as Cat now.

-- Was also a bit worried about Peter Dinklage, Kit Harrington, and Lena Headey, but I thought they all did well and will do their characters full justice.

-- Mark Addy I expected to be really good as Robert and he was.

-- Basically 95%+ of the casting is amazing, they really nailed it on most of the characters. Even the secondary characters like Luwin, Rodrik, Benjen, etc. were prefect. Can't wait to see Arya get more screen time, and Littlefinger.

-- Did love Dany getting into the bath scene they added ("The water's too hot, my lady!"). Nice.

-- Kingsguard armor didn't bother me as much as it does some others, apparently. Hound's helm is pure awesome.

Worst things:

-- This episode was too short. A lot of things seemed rushed. Should have been 90 minutes, ending at the same place but filling in some of the scenes more. For example, why don't we get to see Dany riding her silver horse, the wedding gift from Khal Drogo? This is an important scene! It's the first time Drogo smiles, when he sees a spirited Dany riding the horse. Or the sparring scene between Bran and Tommen (opportunity to meet Joffrey, the Hound there, and let Robb say something).

-- The music. Totally forgettable for me, even after a second viewing, sorry. Just very unimaginitive. I did like the subtle creepy theme they used north of the Wall, but that's about all that really stood out for me. The music isn't so bad it ruins anything for me, but it didn't help elevate it, either. I have to wonder which composer worked on which parts (as they were changed out at one point).

-- All the Dothraki stuff pretty much sucked. The scale of it feels too small, the costuming and sets are all over the place, it's really kind of a mess. The wedding scene was just weird and phoney-looking to me. And who the hell gives a crate of snakes to someone as a wedding gift anyway? Um, thanks? But a lot of the Dothraki story never my favorite parts of the book anyway (even though Daenerys is obviously going to be a super important character at some point). There's interesting parts, but whenever I was reading that story all I could think of was "When do we get back to King's Landing?"

Meh:

-- The incongruous credit sequence. I know, everyone loves this. Taken out of context, I love it too, it looks amazing. But it doesn't fit the look and feel of the show at all. Again, not something that's going to ruin anything for me, but I feel like they went too far with it. Try to look at the 3D map underneath all the shiny gears and rising buildings. The map itself is gorgeous, it didn't need all the mechanical doodads, which distract from showing the geography of the world. Also, how could they screw up all the house sigils next to the actor's names? A lot of people won't notice or care, but wow, that's a pretty big oversight when you know house sigils are an extremely important component of the show, I can't believe no one checked on or caught these errors. Sansa's a Targaryen? Really?

-- Emilia Clark as Daenerys. Still worried about her, but I'm willing to give her some time. She spent the entire episode with that far-away, doe-eyed stare. Perhaps appropriate, but her performance seemed a little one-note to me.

-- Robb seems completely personality-free. Hopefully he has one somewhere. Rickon is completely invisible (although to be fair he's basically invisible in the books too).

-- The prologue seemed a bit off to me. Would have preferred it to be a bit more mysterious and less graphic. The ritualistic arrangement of body parts and the "message" sent by the WW was odd. And there's still the question of how the hell Gared gets back over or through the Wall (and with no horse at that) without anyone noticing him. The little girl was suitably creepy though.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

Regarding "fuck", it shows up five times in AGOT: Viserys threatening to let the khalasar have their way with Dany, Arya talking to city guards outside the Red Keep ("I want to fuck the queen myself, for all the good it does me"), Littlefinger goading Ned by asking if he "fuck with the King's ---", Tyrion raging against Mort the jailor in the Eyrie, and a dying Robert exasperated with Ned ("Ah, fuck you, Ned, I killed the bastard, didn't I?")

If you're curious, there are ten shits, and eighty-one damns or variants on it (damnation, damned, damnable, damnably).

More importantly, "bacon" only appears nine times, "sausage" or "sausages" twelve times, nineteen "beer"s and eleven "ale"s, and one hundred fifty-five mentions of "wine" (discounting swineherd, wineskin, twined, etc).

This is indicative of a drinking problem in Westeros.

[Eponine]

In the book, I think it comes as less of a surprise, because Bran is listening to Jaime and Cersei talk without seeing them at first, and from the conversation, you can figure out who it is and put two and two together - there are two pages of conversation and a few incriminating noises before Bran actually sees them, which has a different effect than the OMG SEX of the show. Although the scene isn't extremely sensual in the book, it shows a lot more about the kind of relationship that they have - obviously something that would have taken too long on TV, but nonetheless, one that has a much different and more personal tone.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Regarding "fuck", it shows up five times in AGOT: Viserys threatening to let the khalasar have their way with Dany, Arya talking to city guards outside the Red Keep ("I want to fuck the queen myself, for all the good it does me"), Littlefinger goading Ned by asking if he "fuck with the King's ---", Tyrion raging against Mort the jailor in the Eyrie, and a dying Robert exasperated with Ned ("Ah, fuck you, Ned, I killed the bastard, didn't I?")

If you're curious, there are ten shits, and eighty-one damns or variants on it (damnation, damned, damnable, damnably).

More importantly, "bacon" only appears nine times, "sausage" or "sausages" twelve times, nineteen "beer"s and eleven "ale"s, and one hundred fifty-five mentions of "wine" (discounting swineherd, wineskin, twined, etc).

This is indicative of a drinking problem in Westeros.

Outstanding. :thumbsup:

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

I didn't think the meat at the wedding looked rotten, just well cooked. I think Dany was a little startled by the flies, but hey, it's just an introduction to her new life, which will be lived for the most part outdoors.

As I said, guaranteed to be wrong. :D

I guess the buzzing flies stood out to me in the wrong way. Since I can't repeatedly view it (not having HBO) to double check things I'm sure I have some other misinterpretations...

[Balefont]

My only complaint: Why did they have to have Jaime and Cersei going at it doggie style fully clothed?? That was literally the only kind of sex we saw all episode... I would have liked to see more of a contrast to the Dothraki stuff. They are actually lovers not just fuck buddies... Should have been more sensual...

As been stated at least 50 times previously in this thread and it's predecessor, they filmed it that way because the actress playing Cersei was preggers at the time it was filmed and they had to use a body double.

[arrowfan]

I give the first episode an 8 out of 10. Really hard episode to pull off perfectly, no doubt, but overall very well done....[etc]

Totally agree with all your points.

All the characters I was most worried about were stellar. Biggest surprise was Catelyn. Great stuff. She and Eddard look really good together.

Thank you HBO for the scene with Dany getting into the hot tub! Not to be a "base" person, but it really was sexy and nice to see Dany isn't just another bolimic skinny body type.

The Dothraki scenes were the toughest part to take. I imagine the scenes in future eps will settle in for us, lets hope so - cause there's some great drama yet to come.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

And on yet another viewing, this time with my finger on the pause button-

When Sansa and Arya are doing their needlework, Sansa has an elaborate pattern that Septa Mordane praises, while Arya is struggling to cross-stitch the alphabet ... but she skipped the letter I. The top row reads ABCDEF, the middle row GHJKL.

I don't think this is an oversight, but rather a hint at the development of her character in the future fourth seasons. Her involvement with the Faceless Men requires abandoning her identity -- there will be no "I" for Arya. Wheels within wheels, people!

[Mya Stone]

And on yet another viewing, this time with my finger on the pause button-

When Sansa and Arya are doing their needlework, Sansa has an elaborate pattern that Septa Mordane praises, while Arya is struggling to cross-stitch the alphabet ... but she skipped the letter I. The top row reads ABCDEF, the middle row GHJKL.

I don't think this is an oversight, but rather a hint at the development of her character in the future fourth seasons. Her involvement with the Faceless Men requires abandoning her identity -- there will be no "I" for Arya. Wheels within wheels, people!

Or...she just sucks so badly at it that she can't even stitch a straight vertical line. :P

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

Or...she just sucks so badly at it that she can't even stitch a straight vertical line. :P

Ah, but we see her hit the bulls-eye mere moments later! No, Arya is already secret ninja chick, and is sending us an early signal of what the future holds for her.

The omens are there; we need but open our eyes!

[Mya Stone]

Ah, but we see her hit the bulls-eye mere moments later! No, Arya is already secret ninja chick, and is sending us an early signal of what the future holds for her.

The omens are there; we need but open our eyes!

:lol:

Maybe you should change your username to ThreeEyedCrow. (Although we already have one of those, just spelled differently.)

[Brude]

My only complaint: Why did they have to have Jaime and Cersei going at it doggie style fully clothed?? That was literally the only kind of sex we saw all episode... I would have liked to see more of a contrast to the Dothraki stuff. They are actually lovers not just fuck buddies... Should have been more sensual...

If this was the version of the scene shot when Lena Headey was pregnant, then I think that would explain why she's clothed.

Regarding "fuck", it shows up five times in AGOT: Viserys threatening to let the khalasar have their way with Dany, Arya talking to city guards outside the Red Keep ("I want to fuck the queen myself, for all the good it does me"), Littlefinger goading Ned by asking if he "fuck with the King's ---", Tyrion raging against Mort the jailor in the Eyrie, and a dying Robert exasperated with Ned ("Ah, fuck you, Ned, I killed the bastard, didn't I?")

If you're curious, there are ten shits, and eighty-one damns or variants on it (damnation, damned, damnable, damnably).

More importantly, "bacon" only appears nine times, "sausage" or "sausages" twelve times, nineteen "beer"s and eleven "ale"s, and one hundred fifty-five mentions of "wine" (discounting swineherd, wineskin, twined, etc).

This is indicative of a drinking problem in Westeros.

This is a fantastic post. Good job!

[Xenophon]

I am incredibly impressed by the economy involved in the introductions, and the efforts made to still take their time with scenes and not rush things. I would almost say that the pacing is just a hair bit slow, but it's not really a concern because I really love that they take the time for Dany to slowly enter the bath, or give time for the pageantry of the royal arrival. That they managed to introduce and distinguish All the lannisters, the king, all the starks, the wall and Dany and Viserys in a single episode as well as progressing the plot significantly (rather than just exposition we also get the wedding and Bran's fall), I thought the episode was really nicely structured in a serial fashion. I don't really feel it has a beginning middle and end as a single episode of TV, per se, but I'm not sure HBO is interested in making TV shows that have single episodes stand alone. On the other hand, it doesn't quite feel like 1/10 of a very long movie or miniseries so they're striking a nice balance between stand-alone and single work.

The series opens with a really spectacular sequence, the silent progression into the northern wastes. I love the methodical opening shot, as the gate slowly rises in front of Waymar Royce and company. The metaphor is nicely done, HBO is lifting the gate for the series, letting us into the world.

I love the visual way they introduce Arya and Sansa. We cut from the archery, to an interior tracking shot. the camera moves around Sansa--ho is happily sewing away to the praises of Septa Mordane--to reveal Arya who looks very unhappy and bored and who perks up to the sounds of arrows and laughter outside. This one shot, coupled with the transition to Arya showing up Bran in the next sequence, establishes the contrast between Arya and Sansa and Arya's mischievous spirit.

The highlights of the episode for me, though, was everything on Pentos with Viserys and Dany. I felt these scenes were the best written and acted and directed moments of the episode and were pretty much without flaw.

I liked the look of all the sets and costumes and locations, it very much matched the "Lion in Winter" look I had given everything in Winterfell and Castle Black in my mind. The production design is incredibly well done. I loved the little background touches like the mantle of dripping candles. The one exception is that the Heart Tree looked built, with fake, sewn on leaves.

Really interesting to hear a TV-professional's take on the show. It's easy for me at least to sometimes overlook the artistry in setting up shots, etc. Also, I hadn't really considered how much the episode stands on its own vs. feels like a part of a longer movie. That will be something to watch for going forward.

[Starkess]

Thank you HBO for the scene with Dany getting into the hot tub! Not to be a "base" person, but it really was sexy and nice to see Dany isn't just another bolimic skinny body type.

Funny, I had the opposite reaction (Gee, isn't it nice that the only people who want to get naked in Westeros happen to be generously endowed women?).

[Xenophon]

Funny, I had the opposite reaction (Gee, isn't it nice that the only people who want to get naked in Westeros happen to be generously endowed women?).

Funny. I was thinking the same thing myself (Dothraki dry-humping anyone?), but my wife (who didn't much like the show overall) said "at least the naked chicks look like real women".

[True Blue Mug]

Well, I've watched it and slept on it.

Meantime, I think the attributes and detriments of the episode have been listed and discussed many times over. The credits and casting are great. The overall execution is bit off at this point, but everything I read says that it needs a couple episodes to get going. After Lost I'd be OK with a television series that starts of shaky and finishes strong.

Anyway, I'm going to go with Donal Noye's Baratheon brother rating system going forward:

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

EP01: Winter is Coming gets a Stannis.

[The Iceman of the North]

Show statues (we get a good look at two of them at 29:04) are holding spears, not swords, and have a direwolf at their sides. They also look identical, as if cast, instead of carved specifically for each man. They also look like they are in much better condition than the statue of Lyanna, despite being much older. This is very puzzling and perplexing to me.

The spears, especially, bother me, because I have long nurtured a theory about a future plot twist involving those old IRON swords (placed there to keep the ghosts bound to the crypt). After all, nobody carries iron weapons anymore, and they are, along with fire, the only things harmful to the Cold Baddies...and the crypt just happens to have a large cache of iron swords.

If you look closely, you'll see that it's great swords, not spears. They are held upright like spears, not over the knees as in the book, but they are still swords.

Back to the 'first blood' issue, that was actually something that bothered me about the book version. I felt Sansa was way too young to have her first period at such a young age (12 or 13) given the general level of health and food quality in that setting.

[Ser_Pounce]

If you look closely, you'll see that it's great swords, not spears. They are held upright like spears, not over the knees as in the book, but they are still swords.

Back to the 'first blood' issue, that was actually something that bothered me about the book version. I felt Sansa was way too young to have her first period at such a young age (12 or 13) given the general level of health and food quality in that setting.

Well in addition to being the daughter of a high ranking noble, she did grow up in a period of, iirc, eight or nine years of summer. having year round fresh fruit and veggies has got to make considerable impact on health.