[BOOK SPOILERS] Nudity and Sexuality in HBO's GoT

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

The title sums up my plans for the thrust of this thread. (Pun noted but not consciously intended. :rolleyes: )

The nudity in the first episode struck me as willfully titillating, in a softcore, Skinemax-y, gauze-lensed, "Look boys! Boobs!" kind of way.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, per se... but is it right for Game of Thrones?

The way the camera tilted down to include the entirety of Dany's (indisputably delightful) bottom felt gratuitous and cynical, as if the producers are balancing the demands of time and story compression against the young-male demographic they hope to amass with lingering shots of female flesh.

The sex scene between the newlyweds struck me as little more than rape, to which the victim has acquiesced in the absence of any other reasonable choice. As has been discussed elsewhere, this is out-of-step with the scene as described in the book.

There are other examples. Tyrion's whores, for one. In the book(s) the sexuality feels natural and "real-world", as though it's just, you know, happening because, after all, this is how people are.

In the first episode, at least, it felt a bit exploitative, like a Penthouse Letter brought to life with a bigger budget.

Discuss.

[SleepyNonah]

A friend remarked on twitter that she felt the ass shot was a little gratuitous in light of the preceding "boob shot" and how condensed the ploy already was.

I've no problems with the show having lots of nudity but would rather it be used to enhance the story rather than take up time that could otherwise be used for plot development.

That said, Emilia Clarke.... nyom!

[Mandurang]

I wanted to create a thread like this, but I posted the following among other first impressions in the first episode thread. I will copy it here, since it is much more relevant.

Before I am misunderstood, let me say that I am aware that some people have raised the issue, when discussing the books in particular, of whether sexual scenes might be overdone. I disagree with that sentiment. I have no quibble at all with how Martin handles sexuality in the books. In fact, I think that aspect of his writing is one (of many) that greatly contributes to the characterization and depth for which the series is justly famous.

That said, I found the overt depiction of said sexuality in the TV adaptation a little unsettling. I am struggling to describe my exact impression, as I think that nudity, if done right, is also something that contributes greatly to a movie, and I can think of some great movies that contained incredible erotic scenes. However, I did not expect the amount, or speed, with which it would be exhibited in this first episode. Perhaps the intention was to set the tone, but if so, the tone it set for me was, somehow, a little off.

I have tried to understand what exactly it was that bothered me. Was it - among other things - because, as some have commented in reviews I chanced to read online, Dany's nudity became a visual vehicle for her lack of power, which they found a bit unfitting? Dany turns, after all, into one of the more empowered characters of the series. I am not sure. Was it because of her visible distress during the consummation scene? But I felt uncomfortable even before that. The answer is, I can't really say. But my, for lack of a better word, art sense tingled with the kind of unpleasant tingle Highlander felt in the presence of other Immortals. I hope it goes away.

However, I will say that the characterization "lurid adolescent fantasy" is not fitting at all. We have only seen one episode. We should constrain ourselves to judgments that make sense.

[Bronn Stone]

The sex scene between the newlyweds struck me as little more than rape, to which the victim has acquiesced in the absence of any other reasonable choice. As has been discussed elsewhere, this is out-of-step with the scene as described in the book.

The changes to the Dany/Drogo consumation (discussed elsewhere in great detail, no need to hijack this one also) diminish the sexiness of the episode, not increase it. By a substantial amount. If their intent was to make it sexier, it was a massive failure. But I don't think it was.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed in posts #2 and 3. Nudity and sexuality are of course natural and human, and the way that Martin writes such scenes in his books always feels germane to the story and characterizations.

In the show so far, these scenes are framed in an intentionally lurid way that, IMO, undermines the naturalism and normalcy that the author intended.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

The changes to the Dany/Drogo consumation (discussed elsewhere in great detail, no need to hijack this one also) diminish the sexiness of the episode, not increase it. By a substantial amount. If their intent was to make it sexier, it was a massive failure. But I don't think it was.

Yes, I don't mean to go off-topic here when there is another thread for this discussion. But it is a question related to this thread as well.

In brief, then, the tenderness of the scene as written is entirely absent from the scene in the show. It may the producers' intent to stretch out the duration of Dany's suffering as a captive of Drogo, so that we feel sorry for her victimization for a longer period of time.

If that is the case, and if we will see her grow to enjoy her marriage to the Dothraki as the series progresses... so be it. But the scene as filmed came across as overtly pandering to adolescent male fantasy. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, but to me it feels out-of-step with the book.

[Brienne the Beauty]

The sex scene between the newlyweds struck me as little more than rape, to which the victim has acquiesced in the absence of any other reasonable choice. As has been discussed elsewhere, this is out-of-step with the scene as described in the book.

I'd say that actually is much less titillating. In the books, that was a fairly bodice-ripping scene, in which the heroine is taken by force by a masterful man, but she "really wants it." Straight out of a cheap romance. I never really liked it. By making it clearly rape, they getting rid of any erotic charge it might have (for most people, ick.)

[True Blue Mug]

I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed in posts #2 and 3. Nudity and sexuality are of course natural and human, and the way that Martin writes such scenes in his books always feels germane to the story and characterizations.

In the show so far, these scenes are framed in an intentionally lurid way that, IMO, undermines the naturalism and normalcy that the author intended.

I don't know if I have a problem with a scene being lurid if is, but adding a lurid scene just for the sake of it is unnecessary. The closer the producers can stay to Martin's story the better. This includes any and all sex scenes. The idea that they needed to show Tyrion whoring it up with some buxom Northern babes because it's a better introduction for his character is ridiculous. Tyrion is somewhat of a lecher, but you know what? He's also highly intelligent. Why don't we, I don't know... introduce him reading a book in Winterfell's library. Equally, when there is a sex scene in the book why would you skip it? Taming Ned and Cat's lovemaking just because they're not the most attractive couple is stupid... even cowardly.

[Datepalm]

I'm conflicted about Dany's scenes - I think the visual medium makes it harder - if not impossible - to disentangle the titillation and, er, artistic merit there. The old "oh, look, isn't it terrible that she's being stripped naked again. And again. And again. One more time with the naked - just so we're clear on how bad this is." Its a very tricky line to walk and HBO haven't quite found the perfect formula here, IMO.

OTOH, Tyrion at the brothel - that was just pointless. Utterly gratuitous waste of time, and to add injury to insult, I think its actively out of character (Tyrion and Jaime both), tonally jarring and perpetuates this 'aren't hookers just awesome' thing it seems i've been seeing everywhere lately. Tyrion and his whores is, in the books at least, an alltogether rather sad business (since his chances of being in a normal relashionship are null, or at least he believes that) that eventually grows into a totally twisted one-sided affair with Shae. Here its...well, why not? They seem like lovely, happy young women - with phenomenal hygiene - and he seems to be having a great time. Why not carry on indefinitely?

[Balefont]

Anyone who complains that this series has too much gratuitous nudity and sex must not have watched the Tudors or Spartacus. Those two series, as examples, have ridiculous amounts of gratuitous sex (the producers admitted to trying to make them as sexy as possible). GoT seems pious in comparison.

[True Blue Mug]

Here its...well, why not? They seem like lovely, happy young women - with phenomenal hygiene -

:laugh:

Very funny and very true.

[Bronn Stone]

Anyone who complains that this series has too much gratuitous nudity and sex must not have watched the Tudors or Spartacus. Those two series, as examples, have ridiculous amounts of gratuitous sex (the producers admitted to trying to make them as sexy as possible). GoT seems pious in comparison.

It is possible for both to be true. Those shows are absurd. GoT may (or may not) be over the top. Spartacus is practically a cartoon, both in terms of sex and violence.

[Balefont]

I'm conflicted about Dany's scenes - I think the visual medium makes it harder - if not impossible - to disentangle the titillation and, er, artistic merit there. The old "oh, look, isn't it terrible that she's being stripped naked again. And again. And again. One more time with the naked - just so we're clear on how bad this is." Its a very tricky line to walk and HBO haven't quite found the perfect formula here, IMO.

OTOH, Tyrion at the brothel - that was just pointless. Utterly gratuitous waste of time, and to add injury to insult, I think its actively out of character (Tyrion and Jaime both), tonally jarring and perpetuates this 'aren't hookers just awesome' thing it seems i've been seeing everywhere lately. Tyrion and his whores is, in the books at least, an alltogether rather sad business (since his chances of being in a normal relashionship are null, or at least he believes that) that eventually grows into a totally twisted one-sided affair with Shae. Here its...well, why not? They seem like lovely, happy young women - with phenomenal hygiene - and he seems to be having a great time. Why not carry on indefinitely?

Knowing how big of fans D&D are and how true they tried to stay to the books and the characters, I have to have faith that the whole Tyrion whorehouse scene will play an important role in the future reveals of Tyrion and his character and his character arc. It's just too early to tell what the importance of that scene may be.

^^ ETA: And ^^^ that goes to you, too, Bronner. < stomps away >

[Datepalm]

Knowing how big of fans D&D are and how true they tried to stay to the books and the characters, I have to have faith that the whole Tyrion whorehouse scene will play an important role in the future reveals of Tyrion and his character and his character arc. It's just too early to tell what the importance of that scene may be.

^^ ETA: And ^^^ that goes to you, too, Bronner. < stomps away >

yeah, I can see that argument...but. Maybe i'm just not the trusting type. If that make it work (I can definitely see that they're trying, and its early days yet, and so on) more power to them. Right now though, theres a bit of cheesy smut shock factor (more, MORE! hookers!) to those scenes that I don't mind at all in a show like True Blood, but which I have a hard time reconciling with, say, the kind of melancholy grandeur, gut wrenching grief or bitter cruelty the series hits quite quickly. If they can pull that off while tossing literal piles of naked women on it, i'll be impressed, but - call me unsophisticated - from here it seems like it might be something of an impediment.

[smegma]

Maybe I'm desensitized, but man I was fine with it all. I thought people really overstated the brutality of the Dany and Drogo scene. Of course, I thought people overblew the violence in Passion of the Christ, so maybe there's something wrong with me.

[Leebo]

Knowing how big of fans D&D are and how true they tried to stay to the books and the characters, I have to have faith that the whole Tyrion whorehouse scene will play an important role in the future reveals of Tyrion and his character and his character arc. It's just too early to tell what the importance of that scene may be.

Agreed. I think both the scene with Tyrion and the whores, and the last scene with Dany and Drogo, have implications that we'll see in future episodes, so I don't feel like they went over the top with those scene. They both made sense to me, actually, as far as how we're being introduced to their characters. We'll see more depth and development in subsequent episodes.

I did think panning down solely to show Dany's entire bum, and linger on it for a long moment, was gratuitous and detracted from the scene (which is supposed to show Viserys's creepiness - I suppose there could be a debate about whether the lingering nude shot is supposed to make the audience feel like we're also creepy as the camera's gaze stays a few beats too long, we could get into that, but I'm not reading that far into it - I think it's just HBO being HBO).

[Tempra]

I'd say that actually is much less titillating. In the books, that was a fairly bodice-ripping scene, in which the heroine is taken by force by a masterful man, but she "really wants it." Straight out of a cheap romance. I never really liked it. By making it clearly rape, they getting rid of any erotic charge it might have (for most people, ick.)

Agreed. If either depiction can be described as pandering to "adolescent male fantasy," it would be the book. I think the show's depiction is more realistic, even if it is not faithful to the book.

Also,, I call BS on the comments that Dany now must be viewed as a Stockholm Syndrome victim.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Knowing how big of fans D&D are and how true they tried to stay to the books and the characters, I have to have faith that the whole Tyrion whorehouse scene will play an important role in the future reveals of Tyrion and his character and his character arc. It's just too early to tell what the importance of that scene may be.

I can already tell you. In the books we get a lot of internal monologues from Tyrion about how much he likes whores. Lacking the ability to see into his mind, the show must display that in a more literal way. Show, don't tell, as we all learned in school.

[Bronn Stone]

Actually, I thought the Tyrion-brothel scene told us a lot in a very brief time. Tyrion lacks sufficient self-confidence with women to the point he feels the need to patronize whorehouses. Tyrion gets along well with Jaime and not with Cersei. He is styled The Imp but hates the moniker. He has a reputation for drinking and whoring. Though it isn't clear to viewers at the time, it also foreshadows that while he and Jaime don't discuss it openly, Tyrion is well aware of the relationship his siblings share. All in about two minutes of screen time.

[Xenophon]

Actually, I thought the Tyrion-brothel scene told us a lot in a very brief time. Tyrion lacks sufficient self-confidence with women to the point he feels the need to patronize whorehouses. Tyrion gets along well with Jaime and not with Cersei. He is styled The Imp but hates the moniker. He has a reputation for drinking and whoring. Though it isn't clear to viewers at the time, it also foreshadows that while he and Jaime don't discuss it openly, Tyrion is well aware of the relationship his siblings share. All in about two minutes of screen time.

And all of that could have been done with 1 whore. Jaime bringing more added nothing IMO, except to move the scene into the realm of gratuitous nudity.

Having Tyrion naked, on the other hand, might have actually done something, especially if Peter Dinklage were able to make himself seem really deformed.