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Anduin Lothar

Sansa and Littlefinger in ADWD

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Yeah, I'm not implying that Sansa is going to turn into Littlefinger Part 2 any more than I think Arya is going to suddenly metamorphasize into ultimate badass ninja assassin. For better or worse, there doesn't appear to be enough time for any of that to happen.

Maybe Martin WANTED that to happen but couldn't figure out how to do it realistically without giving us a 14 book series that sees these children age 5 or 6 years.

In any case, I think Sansa is going to get better and not be the stupid, naive girl she was for most of the series. Remember that as far as we know she is the ONLY ONE who knows the WHOLE story of how Littlefinger basically screwed everybody at King's Landing. Now seeing him actively continue his machinations can only open her eyes more. Again, I don't think she's going to be the next Mata Hari or anything but she MUST be learning something.

I also don't think Littlefinger will be done in directly by her in terms of her outplotting or out-manipulating him. I think that's a bit unrealistic for many of the same reason already pointed out. I think she WILL cause his downfall in the sense that he probably should never have revealed so much to her. I can't believe he would have done so with anyone other than the daughter of his love.

I always thought that Littlefinger would meet his end at the hands of UnCat . . . seems fitting, after all he finally gets what he's wanted all those years.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that Sansa is going to head to Mereen too. If that's a case, NO WONDER George couldn't get through the Mereeneese knot. At the same time, I'm hoping that she is a bit more important and integral to the plot than what is foreshadowed so far.

We know that eventually she and Arya must meet and make their peace with each other. We also know that there's going to be some serious ass-kicking and payback by the Starks (A Time for Wolves was the original title of the last book). I'm just worried that if things continue as they have been, they'll be no one left for Arya and Sansa to take down. Everybody is dying off at an alarming rate. Whose really left besides Cersei, Roose Bolton, and . . . who? I haven't read the series in a while but honestly I seem to remember Arya's list getting awfully short by the end of Storm of Swords.

Dennis

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In any case, I think Sansa is going to get better and not be the stupid, naive girl she was for most of the series. Remember that as far as we know she is the ONLY ONE who knows the WHOLE story of how Littlefinger basically screwed everybody at King's Landing. Now seeing him actively continue his machinations can only open her eyes more. Again, I don't think she's going to be the next Mata Hari or anything but she MUST be learning something.

Agreed, except that Sansa still doesn't know the whole story. OK, she knows he doublecrossed the Lannisters and how he played the Valelords, so she would get the idea, but she doesn't know yet that he first betrayed her father by selling out the City Watch to Cersei and then that he was very likely the one whispering into Joff's ear to get her father beheaded. When she finds that out...

I also don't think Littlefinger will be done in directly by her in terms of her outplotting or out-manipulating him. I think that's a bit unrealistic for many of the same reason already pointed out. I think she WILL cause his downfall in the sense that he probably should never have revealed so much to her.

Sansa still has the remaining poison from the purple wedding, doesn't she? I suspect Martin didn't point that out for nothing.

It's well possible that Sansa will meet up with Dany at some point - she is the "diplomat" of the Starks after all, and getting in Dany's good graces would be a very good move for the remaining Starks - but the Mad Mouse is aiming for the very large reward promised by Varys, presumably to bring her to KL. Maybe Varys could somehow arrange for her to end up into Dany's hands instead, but I don't know how he would do that having fled KL and presumably lost control over some of his network to Qyburn. And kidnapping her will be easier said than done, Sansa is relatively well protected now and getting a living prisoner out of the Vale would be very difficult unless he has access to a ship.

I would rather expect Sansa to come into contact with Dany, if that would happen, because LF will likely attempt to make an alliance with her, and he'll introduce her as Sansa to Dany, if so.

We know that eventually she and Arya must meet and make their peace with each other. We also know that there's going to be some serious ass-kicking and payback by the Starks (A Time for Wolves was the original title of the last book).

I suspect the Starks will play a very important role in fighting the others, and that override any desire for vengeance at that time. But LF - he could well go down due to Sansa and/or Arya. If the others don't get him.

Trio;

I think you're seeing things a bit too complicated re: marriage annulment. Is the High Septon even absolutely necessary for that? Even if he is, in real life popes were very supple in this kind of thing, when powerful kings were involved. I'm not at all suggesting that Martin would dedicate a lot of pages to this. If/when Sansa and Tyrion meet again, the present High Septon could be long dead or be under Dany's thumb (or whoever controls KL then). Besides, if they would go to him as of ADWD I actually think he would agree to dissolve the marriage if they both confirmed it was a forced marriage and a sham, that was never even consummated. Problem is, he would probably torture both for Kingslaying and kinslaying (in the case of Tyrion).

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There's an inherent goodness and innocence to Sansa that Cersei never had, even as a child. She hurt baby Tyrion, it's strongly suggested that she pushed a girl down a well for looking at Jaime, she manipulated Jaime into joining the KG so she could have him nearby and all to herself. I can't see Sansa doing anything of the sort. While she may (and probably should) become more cynical, she's not driven by a desire for personal power and glory the way Cersei is.

It will be interesting to see how Sansa gets dragged back into the thick of things. I doubt the Harry the Heir business will pan out as LF hopes.

There are multiple ways to the get to the same point in character development. Littlefinger was idealistic and in love and circumstances turned him into what he is today - as jaded and cynical as they come. Sansa will follow suit and be the next Cercei, I'd bet on it - especially as her direwolf (who was in many ways a part of her) is dead. Meaning she won't be like the rest of the Stark children. Sansa = Future Cercei. I can totally see the whole series ending with her on the crown, fucking over some idiot who tried to be heroic (maybe even someone we know and love :P), "When you play the game of thrones...."

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There are multiple ways to the get to the same point in character development. Littlefinger was idealistic and in love and circumstances turned him into what he is today - as jaded and cynical as they come. Sansa will follow suit and be the next Cercei, I'd bet on it - especially as her direwolf (who was in many ways a part of her) is dead. Meaning she won't be like the rest of the Stark children. Sansa = Future Cercei.

I just don't see it. Sansa's arc has so far appeared redemptive - she's growing up, and discovered untapped wells of strength. She's gotten over her dreaminess and is more likely to see reality for what it is (though she still has a tendency to believe convenient lies). Pretending to be a bastard has cured her of her snobbery - she considers how happy she would be to see Jon, and thinks of herself as "bastard brave." When she crosses the narrow mountain path with Robin, she seems to derive comfort from imaging the wind is howling like a wolf. To me this adds up to her being reunited with (what remains of) her family as a wiser, braver person.

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Yeah, Sansa's character has the greatest growth potential. I only hope that Sophie Turner is up to the task. She is, at least, pretty enough. I do love the fact that HBO is willing to take chances on such n00b actors being up to the task at hand. I do understand said growth in characterization and acting likely won't have to happen until tv season 3 or 4. In which case I hope Sophie keeps at working on her chops.

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There are multiple ways to the get to the same point in character development. Littlefinger was idealistic and in love and circumstances turned him into what he is today - as jaded and cynical as they come. Sansa will follow suit and be the next Cercei, I'd bet on it - especially as her direwolf (who was in many ways a part of her) is dead.

Sansa's own circumstances have been pretty bad for the last 2 years, but as Jeejee noted, she seems to have changed for the better. The Sansa from AFFC and even from ACOK/ASOS is significantly more sympathetic than the one from early-to-mid AGOT. Not getting her dream prince has made her questions her pretty songs (to some extent) and be wary about any marriage proposals, but it hasn't filled her with bitterness or a burning desire to one-up all those who had slighted her. Her mercy for Lancel (contrary to Cersei) in late ACOK is a case in point; even when Joffrey was choking she seemed unsure if she should be feeling happy or horrified. She just doesn't seem to have LF's vengeful/ambitious character, let alone Cersei's utter jealousy and sense of entitlement.

The only element pointing in this direction is that she is under LF's tutelage at the moment, and I wonder what her reaction will be to his suggestion that Robert will die so she and Harry can take over (when the time is ripe). I would like her to sabotage that plan to the best of her abilities, but I'm nor sure what she'll do (as Robert is her family but also a pain in the ass for her in some ways, so she could be tempted).

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Problem is, he would probably torture both for Kingslaying and kinslaying (in the case of Tyrion).

Yeah, I don't want either of them next or near the present High Septon, to be honest. They'd want to have to be really really obsessed with pursuing an annulment to risk that.

He may or may not be bribeable, but I'm just not so sure he'd overlook all the Kingslaying and kinslaying our two have been convicted of. He seems to take a dim view of anything treasonous. And yeah, I think GRRM confirmed only the High Septon can grant it.

I'm just not seeing an annulment happening - especially as GRRM hasn't signposted it. Tywin mentioned it, but I think that was just to illustrate the pressure Tyrion was under at the time. Neither Lysa or LF have ever mentioned it, and they both had 2nd marriages in mind. Both only mentioned widowhood.

Honestly? My gut's telling me Tyrion won't survive the end anyway.

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it hasn't filled her with bitterness or a burning desire to one-up all those who had slighted her.

I entirely agree with your overall point, but I have to observe that Sansa does want vengeance/justice for her family. She suggests giving Harrenhal to Lord Frey and she thinks to herself at one point that she will raise her sons (little Edddard and Brandon Tyrell) to hate Lannisters. She's not Cersei, to be gratuitously cruel and bitter, but she definitely does hate the Lannisters and she does want revenge for House Stark.

Honestly? My gut's telling me Tyrion won't survive the end anyway.

I tend to agree with you here - Tyrion's violated so many taboos, and is so widely hated by the people, that I just don't see him surviving as the Lord of Casterly Rock. I honestly see him developing an interest in Daenerys that will prove to be his final undoing.

That being said, both Sansa and Tyrion can request an annulment and neither one of them have to come to KL to get it. The only problem for Sansa is that a request for one would reveal her location.

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I entirely agree with your overall point, but I have to observe that Sansa does want vengeance/justice for her family. She suggests giving Harrenhal to Lord Frey and she thinks to herself at one point that she will raise her sons (little Edddard and Brandon Tyrell) to hate Lannisters. She's not Cersei, to be gratuitously cruel and bitter, but she definitely does hate the Lannisters and she does want revenge for House Stark.

Yes, and Sansa definitely wanted revenge on Joffrey as well and I'm sure she was overjoyed to learn Tywin died (did we see a reaction onscreen? Don't quite remember). But that's a normal human reaction. Cersei is much more petty in her hatred, much like her father couldn't abide with any slight. That's why I mentioned Lancel: he was one of the Lannisters who mocked her back in late AGOT or early ACOK, but by the Blackwater she is comforting him (and telling herself how stupid it is to attempt to care for one of her enemies) while Cersei, Lancel's parttime lover and conspirator, is kicking him. That's a nice illustration of the difference in character. Sansa hates house Lannister in general - and rightly so - but she doesn't quite transfer that hatred to all of the individual members of the house. She hates Cersei and Joffrey, but likes Myrcella and Tommen, while seemingly being ambivalent regarding Tyrion and Kevan (who have both shown some kindness toward her but are also enemies of her house and among her captors).

That being said, both Sansa and Tyrion can request an annulment and neither one of them have to come to KL to get it. The only problem for Sansa is that a request for one would reveal her location.

That's interesting, seems to remove the major stumbling block for an annulment then. This High Septon, who seems to be interested in genuine justice on the one hand, would even agree without a bribe I think. OTOH, since he also seems to like having people whipped entirely too much and his views on "sin" seem to be even more rigid than those from Stannis, best not to go anywhere near him. A "post-order" raven-express annulment would do, then!

By the time Tyrion returns to westeros, Sansa will probably have been revealed or be about to anyway. I wonder if LF is waiting on the arrival of Dany for that, the Lannisters will have other fish to fry then.

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That's interesting, seems to remove the major stumbling block for an annulment then. This High Septon, who seems to be interested in genuine justice on the one hand, would even agree without a bribe I think. OTOH, since he also seems to like having people whipped entirely too much and his views on "sin" seem to be even more rigid than those from Stannis, best not to go anywhere near him. A "post-order" raven-express annulment would do, then!

Im not sure about the annulment. The High Septon would grant that annulment depending upon the Septs teaching and morality. Are divorce/annulments acceptable? It was only in the 1970s that they did become acceptable in the Western World. Westeros is medieval so i'm not sure how often the would hand out annulments and on what conditions. The fact that High Septon himself is the only one who can administer them suggests that they are extremely rare. And from the High Sparrow who is so fanatically religious? I don't think he'd grant one. And whats more, with the Faith Militant restored, it will be harder to kill this one off than the last if he doesn't comply with the request.

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Annulments have never been all that rare, so far as I know. The reason why they were not "acceptable" is because it was pretty much a proclamation that any children borne of the marriage were illegitimate and the woman was a whore who had been living in sin. Sansa's marriage was never consummated, so she wouldn't have that problem.

As for divorce, it may not have been socially acceptable but it was certainly around for centuries in the Western world. Fun fact: President Andrew Jackson's wife Rachel was still married to another man when he married her. Her first husband had applied for a divorce, which had not gone through at the time of the marriage. Additional fun fact: Nicholas Biddle, Jackson's political rival, went around talking smack about it out of anger over some political tit-for-tat they were having. Biddle and Jackson subsequently had a fist fight over it in front of Congress, that Jackson won.

Returning to Westeros, a Council of the Faith (sic?) can also distribute annulments but it seems to be a bit of a big deal. But Sansa's marriage is unconsummated and therefore is not valid. The fact of the unconsummated marriage was common knowledge at court and Tyrion was being publicly mocked over it, and there was no bedding carried out during the wedding celebrations.

Last but not least, I suspect our beloved High Septon is not long for this world. He should have seized either Margaery or Cersei, but grabbing both of them was not wise. Now he has Mace Tyrell and his enraged army marching on KL, and Jaime is soon to follow with his own army. So, should an annulment plotline take place, I doubt they'd be dealing with our current High Septon. But also, Sansa Stark is from the North where they worship the old gods but she also worships the Seven. Cultivating her seems to be like a solid opportunity for the Faith to get its claws into the North.

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Annulment in westeros can only be granted officially in the event of non-consummation. In which case the woman needs to be examined by the Sisters to verify her virginity, I believe.

However HS of the past were always quite tame and bribeable, as in the case of Tyrion's first marriage.

The current HS is going to be the next Big Bad of the series - he's really scary and has a freakin' army!

I just don't see him even considering it. Those two are convicted murderers. And if he wants to overrun the North, he can just ask the crown for whatever he wants, now he has armed the Faith. He doesn't need them. And I very much doubt he's gonna be short of cash in the months to come!

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Annulment in westeros can only be granted officially in the event of non-consummation.

This is a reason, but I don't think we've ever seen it said that it is the only reason. Do you have a quote/link for that? Robert was planning to set Cersei aside and it would be pretty damn hard for him to have used non-consummation as a reason/excuse. There's also absolutely no mention that virginity needs to be verified - Margaery was examined, but she was accused of adultery and blasphemy (the whole Maiden's Day thing) and they were collecting evidence. Plus, GRRM said that Sansa can request the annulment from afar and it would be rather difficult to have the Sisters examine her.

Also, Sansa is an accused murderer but she has been convicted of exactly nothing. I'm not saying that there will be an annulment, because I'm not sure, but I don't think these assertions are supported by the text. I'm willing to be corrected of course.

*The reason for Tyrion's first annulment is never given, but given that he was a minor child (only 13) and married without parental consent, I'd bet it had something to do with that...padded with a bit of cash, of course. :P

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I thought GRRM said she would have to reveal her location, not that she could do it from afar?

But say she could - what, she's gonna write the HS a letter and he's gonna go "Hmmm...this person is accused of killing the King, and it's common belief she's been hiding out with her husband for a whole year. But in this letter she says he never touched her and she doesn't know where he is. Aw to heck with it, the sun is shining, the prisoners are screaming, and I'm in a good mood! I'll write back and say I'm granting it!"

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So Spake Martin:

gers14: btw, can a marriage be annulled without both parties present? and without sansa revealing who she really is?

GeoRR: no one needs to be present to annul a marriage

Tigers14: how?

GeoRR: but Sansa would need to request it

Tigers14: as sansa?

GeoRR: Well, why would a High Septon consider a request from anyone but the parties involved?

Tigers14: i mean she can't hide who she is. she has to request that her marriage, her being sansa stark, to tyrion lannister be annulled.

Tigers14: which would imply that the High Septon would need to know that Sansa Stark is requesting the annulment of her marriage.

Tigers14: Which would reveal, to a certain extent where Sansa is.

GeoRR: yes indeed

Here's the relevant SSM - she can send a raven from the Vale requesting the annulment of her marriage. Is it truly common belief she's been hiding out with the Imp? I never thought it made any sense that she colluded with Tyrion, at all, and I never understood why Kevan and the others though that she did.

Either way, I'm not certain if an annulment plotline is in the cards but if it is, yes, she does NOT have to come to KL to do it but it would reveal her location, according to GRRM.

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Sansa spends most of AFFC helping Littlefinger cover up his crimes and scheming, I think she has to decide at some point whether she is going to keep that up -- she thinks of herself as a victim, but through most of the last book, she's his accomplice. It will be interesting to see if she becomes a shameless schemer playing the game of thrones, or makes a turn back to save her honor.

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Sansa spends most of AFFC helping Littlefinger cover up his crimes and scheming, I think she has to decide at some point whether she is going to keep that up -- she thinks of herself as a victim, but through most of the last book, she's his accomplice. It will be interesting to see if she becomes a shameless schemer playing the game of thrones, or makes a turn back to save her honor.

Keep in mind that the alternative for Sansa is that she will be found out (the only possible outcome of telling the truth about what really happened with Lysa, for example) and then either extradited to the Lannisters to be tortured to death or protected by Yohn Royce and his allies, leading to another war and the devastation of the Vale as the Lannister/Tyrell armies come down on the Vale to take her and punish the lords protecting her (and the serfs of those lords, of course, who will undergo the same treatment the riverlands got). Sansa can't say who she is and as daughter of LF, she stands or falls with him - LF has manoevred her in a position where she has no choice but to be his accomplice. LF uses this to full extent when he asks her if she wants even more blood on her hands (referring to Dontos and Marillion, and any others who may have to be "silenced" if Sansa would make a slip).

Sansa realises the dichotomy between Littlefinger, who never helped her at KL, and "lord Petyr" who saved her (but wants to be kissed), and at some point she considers to appeal to Yohn Royce, but she doesn't dare to make the leap - "if he didn't fight for Robb why would he fight for me?". I don't know if it would have been better for her to do so, but likely such a move - assuming Royce would protect her as I guess he would - would have meant war between Royce and KL.

Now, the one thing where Sansa does have a realistic choice is with Robert and his dangerous treatment. Especially after the last lines of her last chapter in AFFC, where LF makes it clear he intends for Robert to die ("in good time", though) and for her to marry his heir. However, the chapter ends before we get Sansa's thoughts about all that (though it is clear that the marriage proposal with Harry by itself didn't exactly thrill her, as you would expect after Joffrey and Tyrion). I hope Sansa will see that Robert is slowly being murdered with his "medication" and that she will heed maester Colemon's warnings in the future - not sure though what she'll do, likewise how she will act wrt Harry once he arrives at the Gates of the Moon.

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