Football/Soccer XVIII: A Game Of Throw-Ins

[mormont]

I've been waiting to use that one for a while. :P

So, it's good to know that the Copa del Rey, like all domestic cup competitions, is not a big deal if you lose but 'special' and 'important' if you win. Even if you do drop it under a bus. ;)

[Calibandar]

Sergio Ramos is a moron, on and off the pitch. Good for him.

Eric/Teabag

No one's saying Madrid should play like Barca, but I am saying that I want Madrid to play like Madrid. I've seen many matches from Madrid this year and oftentimes, the quality of the players is so high that they are enjoyable to watch, despite Mourinho´s anti/football tactics. They are usually nothing like as negative as they were last night.

I don't care one bit for any team that plays 7 defenders. You can quibble about Ronaldo being used as a striker so that they at least had 1. That still leaves you with an extremely defensive team, the way teams that stand to be relegated play against the league champions. And they added to that by playing very foul.

It's all well and good to say that:

Football is all about defence and attack, and Madrid proved they can do both

But in reality, Madrid should have seen a double straight red card in the first half by anone's standards, and then the game would have been gone, and you wouldn't even have brought it up today. They resorted to a tactic that only worked because the ref was incredibly negligent. It has nothing to do with sour grapes on my part, which by the way is a lame comment to make and precisely the reason Guardiola refused to comment on the ref's abominable performance on the press conference today. Guardiola correctly guessed that anything he would say about it would be discarded as looking for excuses.

They showed that even though Barca play entertaining stuff, they are one-dimensional and lack a plan b.

Plan B, plan B, if you win every game and you're the best team in the world, you're not really dealing with a plan B. The reality is that Barca is simply tired, and their game very much relies on those forward players continuing to do their thing. Pedro has been out of sorts for quite a while, Villa hasn't scored since February apparently, too much will be asked of Messi alone. And they were opposed by a Madrid side who simply leaned back and tried to counter, with Pepe trying to break ligaments across the pitch.

I know you can win games like that. But it's ugly, and I have no admiration for it.

It's like the sniper hidden in the bell tower.

Maybe it's my Dutch football culture upbringing, but victories like that feel totally hollow to me. I felt the same when I saw Holland in the world cup final, I didn't even want them to win anymore because that is not who we are.

Barca should have been better, but they weren't. Madrid played a coward's tactic and it worked. Doesn't mean they didn't play like cowards though. And with a clear eyed ref they wouldn't have finished the first half with more than 9 men, and that makes a huge difference.

[Ser Greguh]

I've been waiting to use that one for a while. :P

I can't decide if that pun is so good that it's horrible or so horrible that it's good.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Here's a better response from a Zonal Marking comment:

This argumentation scheme is so old-fashioned. Do you think that in modern football the “defenders” defend, the “strikers” strike, and the “midfielders” only ever get involved when the ball happens to be in midfield?

Madrid did not play 7-9 “defenders” yesterday, but simply 11 players that played as a unit. That means when Barca had the ball, all of the Madrid players were involved in preventing Barca to score and to finally get back the ball (remember the 5:0 clasico, where Ronaldo, Benzema and Oezil simply did not do anything when Barca had the ball). No magic and no stone-age tactics neither.

This is also the reason why most teams look horrible against Barcelona – because they defend with 11 players (pressing, keeping possession, everybody involved).

In case no-one noticed yet, it is always good to have all players involved in what the team is doing at a time, be it defending or attacking.

And as a corollary:

I agree that the rigidity of categories such as striker, defender and midfielder which seems to be presupposed in the accusation of Madrid having ‘7-9 defenders’ is an anachronism at best. In fact, the rigid division between ‘defence’ and ‘offence’ also seems misleading. A ‘purely’ defensive or offensive formation may be utilized in, say, the last few minutes of a match, but otherwise defence and offence are essentially interconnected. If one plays one’s defence in a certain way, it allows one to attack in a different way; a defensive team would greatly enjoy it if their opponent did not come onto them at all in offence, but if a team plays a fast, direct and vertical attack, and seeks to take advantage of this by allowing the opponent to attack relentlessly before getting the ball and taking advantage of the available space, this doesn’t seem at all ‘defensive’. It would seem more ‘defensive’ to simply stop the opponent from having the ball, whereas allowing them to attack would necessarily imply a risk taken in order to bolster one’s own attack; conversely, a ‘defensive’ side will generally only allow the opponent to attack out of necessity, rather than as part of any offensive intent.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Here's a better response from a Zonal Marking comment:

This argumentation scheme is so old-fashioned. Do you think that in modern football the “defenders” defend, the “strikers” strike, and the “midfielders” only ever get involved when the ball happens to be in midfield?

Madrid did not play 7-9 “defenders” yesterday, but simply 11 players that played as a unit. That means when Barca had the ball, all of the Madrid players were involved in preventing Barca to score and to finally get back the ball (remember the 5:0 clasico, where Ronaldo, Benzema and Oezil simply did not do anything when Barca had the ball). No magic and no stone-age tactics neither.

This is also the reason why most teams look horrible against Barcelona – because they defend with 11 players (pressing, keeping possession, everybody involved).

In case no-one noticed yet, it is always good to have all players involved in what the team is doing at a time, be it defending or attacking.

And as a corollary:

I agree that the rigidity of categories such as striker, defender and midfielder which seems to be presupposed in the accusation of Madrid having ‘7-9 defenders’ is an anachronism at best. In fact, the rigid division between ‘defence’ and ‘offence’ also seems misleading. A ‘purely’ defensive or offensive formation may be utilized in, say, the last few minutes of a match, but otherwise defence and offence are essentially interconnected. If one plays one’s defence in a certain way, it allows one to attack in a different way; a defensive team would greatly enjoy it if their opponent did not come onto them at all in offence, but if a team plays a fast, direct and vertical attack, and seeks to take advantage of this by allowing the opponent to attack relentlessly before getting the ball and taking advantage of the available space, this doesn’t seem at all ‘defensive’. It would seem more ‘defensive’ to simply stop the opponent from having the ball, whereas allowing them to attack would necessarily imply a risk taken in order to bolster one’s own attack; conversely, a ‘defensive’ side will generally only allow the opponent to attack out of necessity, rather than as part of any offensive intent.

ETA: I'm not trying to defend Madrid's fouling.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I can't decide if that pun is so good that it's horrible or so horrible that it's good.

It's probably the only possible pun that hadn't already been used yet.

[mormont]

I didn't see the game, but I'd tend to agree that the criticism of 'playing with seven defenders' is likely to be overblown. Man City have played a very similar-looking midfield many times this season. Playing with two defensive midfielders is very common (the 'double pivot', as used in the WC by Spain and erm, the Netherlands), and Barca themselves have done it. Indeed, their whole formation is arguably based around Busquets remaining firmly on their own side of the halfway line.

Deploying two or three defensive midfielders is not necessarily 'anti-football'. 'Anti-football', to me, is more like Mourinho's Inter side - a team that actively avoided retaining possession in favour of kicking the opposition and wasting time.

As for CRonaldo, I don't recall much criticism of Man U playing him in the same position.

[Jon AS]

I didn't see the game, but I'd tend to agree that the criticism of 'playing with seven defenders' is likely to be overblown.

Yeah, it's not who you play, it's how you play. I did see the match (though I fell asleep a minute or two before the goal. That's the first time I've ever fallen asleep watching football...) and I largely agree with Calibandar. Madrid's tactic worked, partly because the referee enabled their playing dirty, but boy was it not fun to watch. Stand deep, kick Barca player to get the ball, play long pass to Ronaldo and hope for the best.:thumbsdown:

[BigFatCoward]

Scott parker is football writers player of the year, very deserving. Far more so than Bale, who had about 6 great games but lacked any consistency.

[MercenaryChef]

Scott parker is football writers player of the year, very deserving. Far more so than Bale, who had about 6 great games but lacked any consistency.

another toon man who got away. :( i do love scottie still though.

in american footy news last night the wife and i went and saw local side dc united host the ny red bulls. we had simply amazing seats in the second row right at midfield. the game was fun. the supporters of dc are very passionate, singing, flag-waving, chanting, jumping. it made for a good atmosphere. but, sadly it did nothing to stop a pair of goals from one of my favorite footballers of all time thierry henry, another by lindpere and finally a brilliant first touch and strike by american national team member juan agudela. i cannot wait to be there when my hometown team the timbers come! sadly, the stadium itself is kind of shit. it is a refitted american football stadium and it is simply too vast to hold the fans so they play to a third full stadium. and the pitch is too far away from the actual seats. the teams in the usa who play in footy/soccer only stadiums truly have it going on.

july: NUFC v columbus crew! we are totally there! howay the lads! howay the lads!

[BLU-RAY]

BFC, you should come up when DC Utd or Portland play at Red Bulls Arena. It's in Bumfuck Newark, but it's a cool place to watch a game.

[MercenaryChef]

BFC, you should come up when DC Utd or Portland play at Red Bulls Arena. It's in Bumfuck Newark, but it's a cool place to watch a game.

though bigfatcoward and i are both handsome nufc supporters that is where our similarities end. he is a london bobby who has lady troubles. i am an american chef with lady skilz.

but, yeah i would love to come up and see portland in particular play. alas, i am starting a new job soon and my days off are going to be tough to get. already i have tickets to various games here in dc both footy and baseball this summer.

[BLU-RAY]

though bigfatcoward and i are both handsome nufc supporters that is where our similarities end. he is a london bobby who has lady troubles. i am an american chef with lady skilz.

but, yeah i would love to come up and see portland in particular play. alas, i am starting a new job soon and my days off are going to be tough to get. already i have tickets to various games here in dc both footy and baseball this summer.

Epic fail on my part, yowza. Yeah, I hear the time thing. Y'don't really need to go see the Natinals, though, :P

Who has the first leg of the Champions League semis, Real or Barca?

[MercenaryChef]

Epic fail on my part, yowza. Yeah, I hear the time thing. Y'don't really need to go see the Natinals, though, :P

Who has the first leg of the Champions League semis, Real or Barca?

i go and see the dodgers, not the nationals. they are just kind enough to host. :P

i think that jose finally has figured out how to beat barca. it is not playing attacking football. it is done by fouling the shit out of barca players, hanging your midfield back and defending hard and hoping for a counter attack or a some other kind of opportunist kind of scoring. if barca cannot adapt to that style of play they could have trouble. i predict a 1-1 draw in the first leg.

[Renasko]

Quite amusing that people are only now talking about Real's defensiveness versus Barca. Jose attempted it in the previous game, as well. He damn well perfected it in the last game, though. Keep the net safe and hit on the break...Fergie would be proud.

[Slick Mongoose]

Football/Soccer XVIII: A Game Of Throw-Ins

:worried:

[MercenaryChef]

Quite amusing that people are only now talking about Real's defensiveness versus Barca. Jose attempted it in the previous game, as well. He damn well perfected it in the last game, though. Keep the net safe and hit on the break...Fergie would be proud.

certainly a win is a win. and barca is fond of the passing the ball around for days and then finally attacking the box. but, as a spectator i want more interesting and entertaining football out of clubs of this level and prowess.

newcastle at blackpool is likely to be a more entertaining affair. ;)

[Iskaral Pust]

Excellent sub-title. I thought it worked.

Madrid won ugly, but is anyone surprised considering Mourinho successfully used the exact same game-plan with Inter? It just took him a while to get the Galacticos to adopt the unnatural style of play.

Barca still don't have a plan B if they don't take one of the limited opportunities against a massed defence. And sometimes referees allow dirty play. Mourinho had four games against Barca. He could not afford to lose all four or his career would be in tatters. Ugly football raised the odds of winning at least one or two. CL semi finals still to come.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Is Mourinho already "Football God" or is it cemented if he wins CL with Real? I for one will simply be pissed that he couldn't do it with Chelsea.

If he goes back after winning with Real and they keep Drogba and Torres I think the Blues will be next. So for that reason I want him to win with Real and then go back to Chelsea. With the "Mourinho mystique" intact, the Blues can finally win CL. Does my logic make sense?

So go Real! :thumbsup: Cronaldo #1!... for now.

[Edit] Nasty leg break for Steve Zakuani. Looked just like the Aaron Ramsay injury in EPL last season. I saw the leg flop. I always seem to be watching when these sort of things happen. He took it like a man though. Seemed relaxed when he was carted of. Shock.

[slothman]

To anyone who has had a chance to watch Dortmund more than I have this year(4 games), who do you really rate on that team and do you think they will be able to hold on to there top players? They have so many promising young players.

In the midfield they have what appear to be four top class players in Gotze, Kagawa, Sahin, and Bender. From what I have seen Gotze is the play maker, Kagawa is a very direct goal scoring attacking mid., Sahin seems to do it all, and Bender is a bit more defensive minded. All four are rumored to have interest from the big clubs in Europe. I think losing Kagawa may have hurt them a little in the second half of the year even though they are still very good. When they had him they were an unstoppable offensive force.

There center backs are both heavily hyped as well, especially Subotic. Going into this year he seemed to be getting the most attention, but I have heard some people saying that Hummels, his partner, is even better.

One guy I have heard varied opinions on is Barrios. Good goal scoring record but I have heard some people say that he is pretrty ordinary. Also I am not sure if GroBkreutz is a second striker or an attacking mid. He may be rotated from one to the other based on the few games I have seen. He looks decent also.