[BOOK SPOILERS] The 7 Season Conundrum

[The Anti-Targ]

So received wisdom suggests the maximum number of seasons HBO will permit is 7. GRRM says it needs 8, and 12 episode seasons at that.

Jumping the gun big time to assume it's going to get beyond 2 seasons, but thought needs to be given to this what if.

IMO if they take the series to 4 seasons I think the implied popularity means they'll be all in for 7. But can they really complete the entire book series in 7 seasons? And then there's the whole, will GRRM be finished in time?

The way I see it, they do 6 books in 7 10 episode seasons and then cancel the TV adaptation. And do what you do with all great and highly popular TV series (had to cross out great for reasons that should be obvious - not related to GoT): Movie trilogy.

I think, if they get that far, they should do the last book as a movie trilogy (if one book can fit into 10 1 hour episodes then it can fit into 3*3'20 movies). And if the TV series gets to book 6 with 7 seasons then you know there's enough global popularity to justify the budget needed to give it the movie treatment (done LOTR style with filming the whole trilogy in one long production to reduce per movie cost).

So there you have it, how (not) to fit 7 books into 7 seasons.

[Original Ned's Bones]

Good thought. My hope is that they stay on course with the books so number 1, I will WANT to keep watching. Number 2, I feel like AFFC can be chopped quite a bit without pissing too many people off, so that would help with squeezing more into less available episodes. Number 3, if they do indeed make it to 7, but aren't going to get renewed, I hope they stay with the pace, and not force a premature ending, allowing them to do a movie trilogy like you suggested. Wow, this was a poorly typed post, sorry...hungover from a concert last night.

[Rinso]

If they don't turn ASOS into two seasons (can be done with more than 10 episodes, say 13 or so, IMO) and if they merge AFFC and ADWD into one long (15 episodes-long) season (would be better for the cast and the story), they can do the whole thing in 7 seasons assuming that GRRM will not add more books as he writes the last two.

I'm not sure I like the movie-trilogy idea, but in all probability, the last season would require a larger budget with a lot of VFX and battles, assuming there will be invasion by the Others and grown-up dragons and stuff.

[DemiNymph]

Ooo, I like the movie option. That is, if asoiaf were as popular as SATC by that time, to justify being made. The cost will be so much higher than a modern movie like SATC. I don't like them to do CG on the dragons or The Others thou.

Generally, fantasy do quite well in the box office in recent years after LOTR lead the way. The 3 Narnia movies, King Kong, The Last Airbender, Enchanted, Golden Compass all took above $300mil each, with The Sorcerer's Apprentice (2010) doing the worst at $215mil. However, it is set in a modern world so audiences may not be too thrilled by that concept.

[Hyper]

I don't think it is wise to go beyond 7 seasons, for MANY reasons. Just one one them... CHILD ACTORS. And GOT has many.

The only book IMO that it would be a significant struggle to fit into a season is ASOS. But as others have suggested, perhaps some ASOS materials can be shifted to the season before and after. Perhaps season 3 can have a 2-4 episodes more. But even so - if they have to cut and drastically simplify stuff - SO BE IT. It is an adaptation, the original source material will still be there. We are lucky to get such a long adaptation such as this... Most books get adapted into far shorter movies.

But anyone expecting a longer series than 7 is setting themselves up for a HUGE disappointment.

[BLU-RAY]

I kind of figured that, to pull this off, depending on the content of ADWD, they'd combine Dance and Feast into a single season (maybe a couple eps longer).

[Xenophon]

Generally, fantasy do quite well in the box office in recent years after LOTR lead the way. The 3 Narnia movies, King Kong, The Last Airbender, Enchanted, Golden Compass all took above $300mil each, with The Sorcerer's Apprentice (2010) doing the worst at $215mil. However, it is set in a modern world so audiences may not be too thrilled by that concept.

The problem is any ASOIF movies would probably get an R-rating, which is usually a profit-killer.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

Does the opinion that 8 seasons are necessary depend on the view that ASoS needs two seasons? Because if that is the case, I agree with the OP that 7 seasons plus a film trilogy will be required, because I am firmly of the view that AFfC needs its own season.

[Kalbear]

Affc would be a hard sell as far as doing an individual season. Too many new PoVs, it'd conflict heavily with the Cersei so far presented, would be following fairly dull plotlines,etc.

GRRM's said that he assumed they'd recombine AFFC and ADWD and then shoot them that way. I figured that would be the case too. That being said, if they're looking to trim some time they could very easily trim a lot of AFFC without missing a ton. It's much more introspective and quiet than a lot of the rest, and while I like the story I can see that it doesn't have the big beats that the other three books have.

[Hyper]

Well it certainly makes sense to mix up and overlap AFFC and ADWD, since they are largely overlapping the timeline. Keeping a consistent and sequential timeline is more important in a television adaptation.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

Affc would be a hard sell as far as doing an individual season. Too many new PoVs,

I respectfully disagree, on the basis that the multiple chapters of the Ironmen story (The Prophet, The Sea Captain, etc.) and the multiple chapters of the Dorne story (The Prince, The Princess in the Tower, The Knight with the Soiled Cloak, etc.) really only constitute one story each, told from a variety of viewpoints, as is GRRM's wont. Tell each of these tales as one continuous thread, and the "too many POVs" coomplaint ceases to be a problem.

it'd conflict heavily with the Cersei so far presented,

I don't know what you mean here. Cersei is who she is: a "vile, murderous bitch" as Margaery calls her. How is depicting her character as written an impediment to giving AFfC its own season? :dunno:

would be following fairly dull plotlines,etc.

Total disagreement here. The Ironmen's Assault on the Shields? The Failed Quest of Brienne the Beauty? The Descent into Pure, Shocking Evil of Queen Cersei? The Voyage of Discovery of Samwell Tarly? The Plight of Alayne Stone? The Fate of Cat of the Canals? This is gripping stuff! In my humble opinion, of course.

GRRM's said that he assumed they'd recombine AFFC and ADWD and then shoot them that way. I figured that would be the case too. That being said, if they're looking to trim some time they could very easily trim a lot of AFFC without missing a ton. It's much more introspective and quiet than a lot of the rest, and while I like the story I can see that it doesn't have the big beats that the other three books have.

Okay, but Martin's assumption does not constitute iron-clad reality. None of us has read ADwD yet (or if you have, I'm uber-jealous!), so we cannot as yet know what tantalizing secrets it holds, but I for one would be very disappointed in the deletion of major events and storylines from the progression of AFfC. I find that novel absolutely engaging and fascinating, and I don't really understand why some fans find it little more than "fat" to be "trimmed". :fencing:

[Kalbear]

I'm not saying that I'd want it trimmed. I'd like to see a lot of it.

At the same time, I recognize that Cersei's descent into madness and ineptitude is not as compelling as the kingdom in chaos and war. I understand that it doesn't film hugely well, either.

Similarly, Brienne rummaging across the countryside does not film as well as the Whispering Woods or the Battle of Blackwater Bay. It just doesn't. The assault on the shields wouldn't be worth even filming by comparison.

More importantly, think about the huge events that happen in AGOT - Ned's death, dragons hatching, King in the North, Whispering woods, Sansa's betrayal. What is similar to that in AFFC? About the closest you get to 'big' events is Cersei and her plotting and trials - but otherwise a lot of conflict is averted. We get Jaime...negotiating. We get Brienne talking to a lot of people with a couple of small fights. We get Cersei talking to a lot of people (badly, but talking). We get Littlefinger negotiating people down from fights. Everywhere conflict is largely averted. This does not make for a gripping action-oriented plot. This was one of the biggest complaints about later seasons of the Sopranos - there was all this buildup of conflict and then the conflict was basically talked over.

And no, Cersei's descent into ineptitude doesn't go nearly as well with the Cersei we're seeing in the show. The one in the show is cool, vindictive without being passionate, able to hide what she's thinking far better than the one in the book. It's much harder for me to see the cool Cersei become this powermad idiot.

In terms of specifics, I think they could cut Brienne's plot without a huge loss. I think they could largely trim Jaime's story without a huge loss; much of it is introspection that would be a tough translation. I think some of Cersei's bits would likely be better to trim, but perhaps not everything; it's the meat of AFFC. I think Arya and Sam's stories are small enough to keep and interesting enough to keep, plus I think both Sam and Arya are going to be fan favorites by that time.

Sansa's the real tough one. Do you want to show her with littlefinger? Do you want to show that side at all? It's especially tough if there's not a lot of Sansa in ADWD. Having to film a bunch of scenes with the Eyrie and the like when that's basically it for her and she barely appears in two seasons is...difficult.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Total disagreement here. The Ironmen's Assault on the Shields? The Failed Quest of Brienne the Beauty? The Descent into Pure, Shocking Evil of Queen Cersei? The Voyage of Discovery of Samwell Tarly? The Plight of Alayne Stone? The Fate of Cat of the Canals? This is gripping stuff! In my humble opinion, of course.

All very good stories, but I don't think any of them would take very long to effectively tell.

In other words, the real meat of AFFC is not going to take up very much screen time. The book was almost entirely exposition.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, that's another good point. A lot of AFFC is internal, and a lot more is describing the world. We see Braavos more than we ever had, we see Oldtown, we see the countryside wracked with ruin - all of which takes up a lot of descriptive time (because it's all new stuff), but which takes up almost nothing in terms of filming time. Arya's 4 chapters are simple to fit into a few eps. Same with Sam. Brienne's would take a few more, but not much. Jaime's takes even less; he does almost nothing except go to Riverrun and spar, and most of his sparring is introspection. Sansa has 3 chapters and even less to do, and a lot of it is an infodump. The ironmen are huge on description, as are the Dorne chapters.

One other reason I think things can be cut from AFFC is that a lot of it is really confusing. Why would we jump over to the iron isles all of a sudden? Why would we jump to Dorne all of a sudden? This makes more sense when we're not getting Dany/Jon/Tyrion/Bran/Davos, but when we do have that available all of a sudden we're following Tyrion's tale after he kills his dad, Jon's tale with Stannis, Davos' quest to do...whatever, Dany's fight to be a queen and then her dealing with all these visitors, Cersei dealing with KL, Brienne running about, Jaime learning to fight and going places, Arya becoming a FM, Sansa plotting with LF, Bran learning to be a crow, Sam going to Oldtown...AND THEN we get some random bits in Dorne and the iron islands?

That's a lot. Think for a second about trying to keep that in your brain as a new viewer, given that new viewers right now are having a hard time telling Jon/Robb/Theon apart and barely know anyone's names. And right now is about as simple as you can get.

That shit is going to be hard.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I think you may be able to squeeze AAFC for and ADWD in one season if you were to move the stuff that happens after AFFC into the next season.

[guyminuslife]

Thinking about the difficulty in rearranging most of the storylines in the series makes me appreciate how it's taken GRRM 6 years to write ADWD.

[Bronn is God]

Stop the show at the end of SoS, which should be 2 season or a single, long season. Things get far too complex in FFC to keep it interesting, and we wont know the receptivity of the audience to the "Ice and Fire" story until the end of SoS.

[SergioCQH]

Total disagreement here. The Ironmen's Assault on the Shields? The Failed Quest of Brienne the Beauty? The Descent into Pure, Shocking Evil of Queen Cersei? The Voyage of Discovery of Samwell Tarly? The Plight of Alayne Stone? The Fate of Cat of the Canals? This is gripping stuff! In my humble opinion, of course.

You're free to disagree with kalbear as you like, but you have to acknowledge that your opinion is the minority. mormont the mod claims AFfC is his favorite, but the VAST majority of fans think AFfC is the weakest book. Just look at the respective Amazon reviews. While some eventful things do occur, they only occur for minor characters. The book is missing most of the fan favorites, and the main characters left don't do very much at all. AFfC would make for an absolute DISASTER of a TV season.

[seppuku]

You're free to disagree with kalbear as you like, but you have to acknowledge that your opinion is the minority. mormont the mod claims AFfC is his favorite, but the VAST majority of fans think AFfC is the weakest book. Just look at the respective Amazon reviews. While some eventful things do occur, they only occur for minor characters. The book is missing most of the fan favorites, and the main characters left don't do very much at all. AFfC would make for an absolute DISASTER of a TV season.

By the time you were done shaving all of Brienne's worthless filler, you'd have 6 episodes tops. Feast and Dance will be one TV season. I can guarantee that (assuming this show makes it past 3seasons).

[الملك الظاهر ركن الدين بيب]

You're free to disagree with kalbear as you like, but you have to acknowledge that your opinion is the minority. mormont the mod claims AFfC is his favorite, but the VAST majority of fans think AFfC is the weakest book. Just look at the respective Amazon reviews. While some eventful things do occur, they only occur for minor characters. The book is missing most of the fan favorites, and the main characters left don't do very much at all. AFfC would make for an absolute DISASTER of a TV season.

Why would that be a disaster? The Wire did this for a season and it worked fine.