[BOOK SPOILERS] The 7 Season Conundrum

[seppuku]

I'd be shocked to see the series get passed a season 3. Maybe HBO will learn from the Rome mistake though.

If it becomes highly succesful and Dance sells with a Harry potter-like fervor than Martin could probably get however many seasons he wants. Larry David can basically put out stuff for HBO at his leisure at this point.

[Kalbear]

Why would that be a disaster? The Wire did this for a season and it worked fine.

In the sense that they went back to the system that worked for them afterwards and never returned to the formula for S2, yes, it worked fine.

[Rinso]

By the time you were done shaving all of Brienne's worthless filler, you'd have 6 episodes tops. Feast and Dance will be one TV season. I can guarantee that (assuming this show makes it past 3seasons).

Yeah, I'd kinda agree. A lot of what's going on in AFFC (Cersei's blunders, Arianne's gambit and Euron Greyjoy's rise) is probably important for the endgame, but it can easily be sqeezed into quite a few episodes. I can't see how you can stretch the whole quest of Brienne for more than 3 or 4 episodes without it becoming tiresome, nor Arianne's little scheme, for that matter. I can all but assume at this point, but I believe that in terms of nothing-earthshattering-happens-ness, ADWD would be very similair to AFFC, just with the other half of the characters. The bulk of these two books is Cersei's fall and Dany's rise, the rest isn't nearly daunting nor impossible to do in one slightly longer season. 10 episodes would be a bit too few, but anywhere between 13 and 15 would be fine.

[الملك الظاهر ركن الدين بيب]

In the sense that they went back to the system that worked for them afterwards and never returned to the formula for S2, yes, it worked fine.

I don't see how these books would be any different. Did the rating's drop in the second season? I really enjoyed that year even though my favorite characters were in the pit.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

Kalbear, we're just going to have to disagree. Our opinions are subjective and personal, not ironclad realities. I realize I'm in the minority in finding AFfC a gripping and exciting yarn, well worthy of the other entries in the series so far; but since that minority is shared by the author himself, I feel I'm in good company.

I will readily concede that AFfC feels like an unfinished work... which it is. If in the HBO adaptation its events can be woven into the coeval events of ADwD, so much the better! But I will continue to ardently disagree that Cersei's descent into evil "will not film well", that Brienne's quest is tantamount to "rummaging across the countryside" (as she is my favorite character, I'll go anywhere with her; her victories are all the sweeter given her underdog status, and her core nobility I find as fascinating as her abject failure), or that the assault on the Shields "wouldn't be worth even filming by comparison" to Blackwater Bay.

To my mind that last bit is like saying the fight with Shelob in ROTK was "not worth filming" compared to the Battle of Helm's Deep in TTT. Each event has its own significance, its own sense of drama and intrigue. Not every scene or event need be compared to some epic, climactic battle. Small, interpersonal moments can be as effective and as momentous as explosive action sequences.

To your question: "What is similar to [the stunning events of GoT and CoK] in AFFC?" I would answer: Cat's blindness. Brienne's defeat and subsequent hanging. The Kingsmoot on Old Wyk. Cersei's imprisonment. Sam's conference with Marwyn in Oldtown and the revelations attached thereto. Jaime's cutting Edmure Tully down from the gallows and the subsequent lifting of the siege at Riverrun. The kidnapping of Myrcella. The imprisonment of Arianne and the revelation of her betrothal to Viserys. The revelation that Victarion is going east to bring back Danaerys for his own wife. These and all the events leading to and from them will be every bit as astonishing on-screen as they have been to read them, and strike me as being very much of a piece alongside the dramatic events and revelations in the other books in the series. I honestly do not understand the disappointment with AFfC, apart from the fact that it's only one-half of a larger story.

To your difficulty in reconciling Cersei's actions in AFfC with the cool exterior of the character as heretofore depicted, I would remind you that she has now lost her favorite son and her father to murder, that the murderer himself has escaped, that she no longer shares the intense and intimate bond with her twin that she once thrived on, that nightmares and memories of a mortal prophecy haunt her, and that in the midst of all this she has to rule all Seven Kingdoms alongside people she neither likes nor trusts. Seen in this light her "descent into ineptitude", as you call it, is fully comprehensible.

As to Sansa/Alayne, I will predictably say: Yes. Keep it. Her struggles in the Eyrie are germane to the building plot concerning her impending betrothal to Harry the Heir and her planned debut as Sansa Stark, returned from the grave.

I'm not saying that I'd want it trimmed. I'd like to see a lot of it.

At the same time, I recognize that Cersei's descent into madness and ineptitude is not as compelling as the kingdom in chaos and war. I understand that it doesn't film hugely well, either.

Similarly, Brienne rummaging across the countryside does not film as well as the Whispering Woods or the Battle of Blackwater Bay. It just doesn't. The assault on the shields wouldn't be worth even filming by comparison.

More importantly, think about the huge events that happen in AGOT - Ned's death, dragons hatching, King in the North, Whispering woods, Sansa's betrayal. What is similar to that in AFFC? About the closest you get to 'big' events is Cersei and her plotting and trials - but otherwise a lot of conflict is averted. We get Jaime...negotiating. We get Brienne talking to a lot of people with a couple of small fights. We get Cersei talking to a lot of people (badly, but talking). We get Littlefinger negotiating people down from fights. Everywhere conflict is largely averted. This does not make for a gripping action-oriented plot. This was one of the biggest complaints about later seasons of the Sopranos - there was all this buildup of conflict and then the conflict was basically talked over.

And no, Cersei's descent into ineptitude doesn't go nearly as well with the Cersei we're seeing in the show. The one in the show is cool, vindictive without being passionate, able to hide what she's thinking far better than the one in the book. It's much harder for me to see the cool Cersei become this powermad idiot.

In terms of specifics, I think they could cut Brienne's plot without a huge loss. I think they could largely trim Jaime's story without a huge loss; much of it is introspection that would be a tough translation. I think some of Cersei's bits would likely be better to trim, but perhaps not everything; it's the meat of AFFC. I think Arya and Sam's stories are small enough to keep and interesting enough to keep, plus I think both Sam and Arya are going to be fan favorites by that time.

Sansa's the real tough one. Do you want to show her with littlefinger? Do you want to show that side at all? It's especially tough if there's not a lot of Sansa in ADWD. Having to film a bunch of scenes with the Eyrie and the like when that's basically it for her and she barely appears in two seasons is...difficult.

[j52y]

A Storm of Swords could be covered in one season, but it would require two things: a 12 episode second season and a 15 episode third season.

The second season would have to be 12 episodes so that it would cover some stuff from A Storm of Swords. Dany doesn't have as much to do in A Clash of Kings, so something I've heard other people suggest is that they move her buying of the Unsullied/conquer of Astapor to the end of the second season. This would give her both more to do in the second season and less to do in the third season, making more room all the other storylines. I also think that Jaime, Catelyn, and Davos's first chapters in A Storm of Swords would fit better in season 2. Something to consider as well is that the prolouge might be an good cliffhanger for the second season.

HBO giving shows longer seasons isn't necessarily a new thing. They gave The Sopranos a 21 episode 6th season, but they insisted on splitting it up into part one and two, part one consisting of 12 episodes and part two consisting of 9 episodes. They might insist on splitting season 3 into two parts as well, which could work. The split would still be at the red wedding, which would prolly come at episode 9, leaving for a 6 episode part two.

Why should they have a longer season split into parts? Isn't that just the same thing as two seasons? No, its not the same. Season 6 of The Sopranos, even though it's split, it's still a complete thought. The same would go here. I think that A Storm of Swords is a complete thought and none of the plotlines relly lend themselves to being split in the middle (especially stories such a Bran's). Another reason I would prefer this is because I don't think that there's ten episodes worth of material after the red wedding in A Storm of Swords. The writers would really have to stretch out the material, causing for a sub par season 4, imo. Also, it would mean characters (and their actors) like Theon who aren't in A Storm of Swords would only be gone for a season, instead of two seasons.

6 episodes also would be enough to cover the events after the red wedding because there would no longer be Robb and Catelyn's story to take up time, so there'd be more time to follow the other characters. Perhaps even hold off on Balon Greyjoy's death and make that the opening scene of the part 2, and have a mini-arc of Aeron trying to set up a Kingsmoot (though I don't think the Kingsmoot should be until the fourth season, this would be a very mini arc).

And if HBO doesn't insist on splitting the season, that changes nothing at all, except that I would put Balon Greyjoy's death at the beginning of the red wedding episode, and there would be less or no break during the season.

Edit:

Considering that HBO gave The Sopranos a 21 episode season, if Game of Thrones gets to a fourth season, perhaps HBO would be willing to give them a 24 episode fourth season. Now yes, it would be broken into two parts and there would still be a year between parts, so it would feel like two seasons, but from a structural stand point, the two parts would still be one thought (for the reasons I stated above).

Some people have said that they should just do A Feast for Crows on it's own. Given that many of the conclusions of A Feat for Crows will be in A Dance with Dragons, the fact that the child actors will be growing up, and that there are too many characters not in A Feast for Crows. Yes, The Wire had a season where new characters dominated the season, but the old characters were still in the season. They didn't just abandon the old characters. That would be bad storytelling.

Nor do I think we can ignore the stories in A Feast for Crows. GRRM planned on and found that he couldn't, and I think the stories are interesting and important. Making a really long season 4 will allow to combine the two books into a cohesive and complete thought without losing much.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think the biggest events in the AFFC are the Kingsmoot with Euron, Jaime takes Rvierrun, and the whole Dorne conspiracy. I agree a lot of Cersei's bumbling can be trimmed and some of Brienne's travels as well.

[The Anti-Targ]

All this fantasising about 13-15 episode seasons is unrealistic. If people think ASoS needs 12 episodes and AFfC/ADwD need 15 between them then you have 27 episodes, which might as well be rounded up to 30.

But 7 seasons isn't a problem if you can get these 3 books into 3 seasons (assuming GRRM finishes at 7 books).

Season 3 is 10 episodes - all ASOS; Season 4 is 10 Episodes - 2 or 3 from ASoS, 7 or 8 from AFfC/ADwD mash up; Season 5 is 10 episodes from AFfC/ADwD mash up.

If fitting the whole saga into 7 seasons is going to be a problem the problem lies in ASoS not AFfC or ADwD. But if AFfC and ADwD can be significantly cut parred back then perhaps the ASoS problem can be overcome.

[Steinman]

Why wouldn't Game of Thrones continue over 8+ seasons if it's successful enough to warrant it?

I also have a hard time understanding those who think AFfC and ADwD can be combined into one season. Even if the AFfC-parts were trimmed down heavily into 5-6 episodes ADwD is still a book that is even larger than ASoS. I'd think at least 20 episodes are needed for those two books.

I'm hoping that by the time ASoS is given the green light (*knock on wood*) HBO will suspect they have an otherwise weak line-up for the next year and will be prepared to air 14-15 episodes that year for ASoS :)

[TheEvilKing]

I think the AFFC/ADWD seasons will be too sprawling to do effectively in one ten-episode season. Even with 12 episodes, there are way too many story threads. I think it'll need 90 minute episodes. There are simply way too many plots to follow at this point, almost 3 times as many as AGOT.

[Myrddin]

In all honesty, they could completely cut the Ironborn moot and the Dorne conspiracy from the main stage of the show. They are all happening (mostly) offstage for the first three books anyway. There's no reason to bring them to the fore until their actions intersect with the "main" storylines (King's Landing, Dany, the Wall).

What outcome from the Iron Island scenes is important? The two brothers (probably) showing up in Meereene? Fine. Introduce them then with the scenes depicted in Dance. Add them to help tangle the Knot for Dany to untie. Tyrion will know who they are, as will Barristan. Theon being set aside is hardly interesting enough to waste screen time. (And if that's important to the narrative, he can show back up in Westeros and relay what happened in the moot)

As for Dorne, we still have no idea what the true impact of them will be. Myrcella is now disfigured (well, scarred) and Dark Star is doing whatever he's doing. Again, once we get to read Dance, we'll know more, but this whole "set up Myrcella as a rival queen" plot seems to have failed. Have it all happen offstage. No need to show it on TV. As it is, Quentin is just "showing up" in Meereene.

The truth is, they're going to be cutting chracters and sub-plots off left and right. Craster and his wives can be easily cut off. That's a lot of investment when the only payoff (really) is Gilly and her baby (and switch). Have Sam find her on his way south to the wall. Have the Black Brothers kill Mormont another way (or just have him die on the Fist). Craster is interesting in a book, but uneccessary for the overall storyline.

[Manakhkubar]

What outcome from the Iron Island scenes is important? The two brothers (probably) showing up in Meereene? Fine. Introduce them then with the scenes depicted in Dance. Add them to help tangle the Knot for Dany to untie. Tyrion will know who they are, as will Barristan. Theon being set aside is hardly interesting enough to waste screen time. (And if that's important to the narrative, he can show back up in Westeros and relay what happened in the moot)

Here's the problem. "Relay" is easier written than shown. The Ironborn "situation" nails the Stark's coffin, therefore it _is_ significant in the book, just as Balon's death, the moot and so on. Of course, for the Series, that all can and must be rewritten (not completely cut, as Theon already exists and is "invested" into). But not just "told off-screen".

As for Dorne, we still have no idea what the true impact of them will be. Myrcella is now disfigured (well, scarred) and Dark Star is doing whatever he's doing. Again, once we get to read Dance, we'll know more, but this whole "set up Myrcella as a rival queen" plot seems to have failed. Have it all happen offstage. No need to show it on TV. As it is, Quentin is just "showing up" in Meereene.

Here I'd agree. The whole thing could be omitted (from the audience). But it won't. It's HBO and I'm somehow convinced they will "cover" the Arys&Arianne thing. A pitty.

[TheEvilKing]

I'm thinking Dorne will be introduced in s4 (ie. second half of ASOS) and Dorne in s5.

They could definitely (and probably will I reckon) cut the Iron Islands scenes from season 2. But the Ironborn politics of Balon's succession is pretty interesting, and the Kingsmoot is really cool

It's season 5 (AFFC/ADWD) where all the plotlines will really start to spiral out of control. There are the plotlines in season 1 by setting:

Vaes Dothraki - Dany/Viserys/Drogo

The Wall - Jon/Sam

King's Landing - Ned/Arya/Sansa/Cersei/Jaime

Riverlands/The Eyrie - Catelyn/Robb/Tyrion/Jaime

Winterfell - Bran & Robb

Here's the Probable Season Five (being start of AFFC/ADWD):

Across the Narrow Sea - Dany/Tyrion/Quentyn

The Wall - Jon/Stannis

Dorne - The Martells

King's Landing - Cersei and The Gang

Riverlands - Jaime

Riverlands 2 - Brienne/Pod

The Eyrie - Sansa/Littlefinger

Braavos - Arya

The North - Theon/Davos

Beyond the Wall - Bran? (Or maybe season 6...)

The Narrow Sea/Oldtown - Sam

Hither & Thither - The Greyjoys

[Shrub Knight]

They can completely omit Brienne from the series and I won't shed a tear. Up to now, her main accomplishment was an amusing scene with a pink dress and a bear pit. Ok, THAT I might miss from the series - the visual would be priceless.

Also, since HBO has so many of the books already out, I wouldn't be surprised if they took ASOS, AFFC and ADWD and kind of muddled them. A couple of the various threads could be interchangeable through them, so we might end up with three (or four) seasons that are somewhat blended.

What about tossing in 2-hr premiers and finales? I haven't watched many HBO shows in the past, is that unprecedented?

[Fez]

Why wouldn't Game of Thrones continue over 8+ seasons if it's successful enough to warrant it?

I also have a hard time understanding those who think AFfC and ADwD can be combined into one season. Even if the AFfC-parts were trimmed down heavily into 5-6 episodes ADwD is still a book that is even larger than ASoS. I'd think at least 20 episodes are needed for those two books.

I'm hoping that by the time ASoS is given the green light (*knock on wood*) HBO will suspect they have an otherwise weak line-up for the next year and will be prepared to air 14-15 episodes that year for ASoS :)

Because the child actors will be to old to continue in their roles if things went 8+ seasons.

And unless production significantly changes I doubt we'll ever see a season longer then 12. There was an interview with two HBO execs. right after the season 2 renewal was announced and they said that since David and Dan were essentially doing all the writing by themselves (plus the one episode contribution by GRRM), they were concerned that the writing quality could suffer a great deal if the workload were increased. If a full writing staff were hired, maybe HBO would reconsider (though I suspect the real reason is cost, and this is just an additional reason that they can give that sounds better).

Personally, I'm going to be grateful for whatever we end up getting, and if that's exactly 70 episodes spread over 7 seasons I'll still be ecstatic. I rather consider that the best possible realistic scenario actually (though a few 12-episode seasons may also be possible)

I do think giving ASOS 1.5 seasons and giving AFFC/ADWD 1.5 seasons is probably the best way to go about things. It still keeps production on track for 7 seasons, it allows ASOS to have some more room, and it allows a great deal of "filler" in AFFC to be cut.

[SergioCQH]

Because the child actors will be to old to continue in their roles if things went 8+ seasons.

This objection doesn't make any sense to me. There's no requirement that the characters stay young forever. It would actually make the series even more believable if the actors DID age a good bit.

[j52y]

.And unless production significantly changes I doubt we'll ever see a season longer then 12. There was an interview with two HBO execs. right after the season 2 renewal was announced and they said that since David and Dan were essentially doing all the writing by themselves (plus the one episode contribution by GRRM), they were concerned that the writing quality could suffer a great deal if the workload were increased. If a full writing staff were hired, maybe HBO would reconsider (though I suspect the real reason is cost, and this is just an additional reason that they can give that sounds better).

Something to keep in mind, though, is that Dan and Dave were set to write all the episodes of the first season, but they had to get some help. In personally hope they decide to bring Jane Espenson back; I really like her as a writer.

[Bronn Stone]

Something to keep in mind, though, is that Dan and Dave were set to write all the episodes of the first season, but they had to get some help. In personally hope they decide to bring Jane Espenson back; I really like her as a writer.

I think she should be flogged for crimes against Battlestars.

On topic, I understand the sentiments about AFFC, but I honestly think the Kingsmoot is among the top 5 moments of the series. Jaw-dropping stuff. No way they knock the Ironborn out of ACOK either. Asha is one of the few strong, independent and charismatic female characters. They can't cut her. She'll make for GREAT television.

[Padraig]

No way they knock the Ironborn out of ACOK either. Asha is one of the few strong, independent and charismatic female characters.

Yes. That's virtually impossible. They have set Theon up to play a bigger role in S2. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Ironborn characters are cut in S2 but we'll end up with Asha and Balon anyhow. And a few men to hang around with Theon.

I think the "1 book 1 season" plan will end if we get a S3 (unless its decided that S3 is the last). But without seeing aDwD, its difficult to know what exactly they'll do. Mashing books 3 to 5 together into 3 (10 episode) seasons seems one option. The other option is that they give S3 more episodes but seems HBO are reluctant to go that way. Maybe if it is really successful I suppose.

There's no requirement that the characters stay young forever. It would actually make the series even more believable if the actors DID age a good bit.

This is true. The biggest divergence between the TV and book series could be the ages. They are already different and the difference could just get larger.

HBO and I'm somehow convinced they will "cover" the Arys&Arianne thing.

There are dozens of ways it could include scenes of a sexual nature. Its not going to include the Martell plot line just for one more scene.

Personally, I will be hoping that they show as much of aFfC (and other books) as possible but I can live with cuts. Having the series last 7 seasons will trump having it show every scene from every book. (Although I don't see 7 as the magic number. If its successful enough to last 7 seasons, then 8 could easily work also. The books are not going to get less complicated or smaller. OTOH, having enough seasons to go into double digit seem completely unrealistic).

[Werthead]

By the time you were done shaving all of Brienne's worthless filler, you'd have 6 episodes tops. Feast and Dance will be one TV season. I can guarantee that (assuming this show makes it past 3seasons).

DANCE and FEAST will be two seasons. Even if you can break FEAST down to just a few episodes by dropping certain storylines and de-emphasising others, that still leaves the 1,000-pages-in-hardcover DANCE to deal with. DANCE alone will almost certainly need to be two seasons; combined with FEAST it will definitely be two and could be three, if the producers decide to keep a lot of FEAST in the TV series.

In the sense that they went back to the system that worked for them afterwards and never returned to the formula for S2, yes, it worked fine.

And it nearly killed them after the disastrous ratings for Season 3. Season 2 of The Wire had the highest audience figures of the entire series, IIRC. Online sources for viewing figures for The Wire are hard to find, but I remember this cropping up in discussions because of the idea that people didn't watch The Wire because of the predominantly black cast, and Season 2 seemed to reinforce this by the 'criminals' in this year being white and it got the biggest audience figures.

Why wouldn't Game of Thrones continue over 8+ seasons if it's successful enough to warrant it?

A complete series is more attractive to HBO and to certain viewers. I know people who've been burned on Firefly and other series and now refuse to watch a series until it is complete and they can get the box set. To continue The Wire analogy, The Wire has sold far more DVDs, gained a vastly higher profile and attracted stronger audience figures for repeats since it's been off the air and 100% complete than when it was on. In addition, the longer a series goes on the more likely that castmembers who have become big stars might want to leave. This isn't a problem when you're making up the story and can unexpectedly and dramatically kill off a major character, but Kit Harington or Emilia Clarke leaving in say Season 5 to go work in Hollywood would be a pretty big problem for the series. Another problem - though Thrones may be far more insulated from this than most HBO prodcutions - is the producers getting bored and going to other projects, which definitely killed Deadwoodand arguably did for Carnivale as well.

From a creative point of view, keeping an intense, detailed and complicated story going over multiple seasons is difficult as you risk losing dramatic momentum. Even the tightly-plotted Babylon 5 ran out of steam in its final season (though there were other mitigating factors) and Lost and BSG both ran into problems at various points where at one stage they'd have too much story, resulting in rushed episodes, and at another they wouldn't have enough, resulting in filler. To be frank, the notion of getting even to seven seasons and maintaining a strong audience is questionable. The X-Files did it because the audience stopped giving a shit about the mythology episodes and just enjoyed the stand-alones. Deep Space Nine did it because the story arc only surfaced a few episodes per season and was slow to get starting, the series being an effective 'problem of the week' situation that casual audiences could enjoy the rest of the time.

Just as the books slow down and become more detailed and the story broadens rather than accelerates forwards, the TV series will by necessity do the same thing. That's great for more detailed character exploration, but it'll be interesting to see if the audience will stick with it when major story points are happening every 4-5 episodes apart rather than every week.