[book and tv spoilers] Jon's heritage

[Tywin's bastard]

I could see changing that for TV. It might make sense to use Benjen, a character we meet in the first episode, instead and cut Reed out altogether (assuming it's at all possible with whatever GRRM writes).

By the time we get to the revelation of Jon's parents Howland Reed will have had plenty of time to be introduced, especially since his children will have had far more screen time than Benjen Stark.

[Volderon]

Oh I think that guys post is genuine and pretty real...that link to the other forum. Good on them, they figured it out. See guys, we're not just a lame theory...it's gotten just that much more likely.

[aeu]

This is from the completely unspoiled speculation tread on Television Without Pity.

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3204374&view=findpost&p=13873751

If the guy is new to the show, very perceptive. The cynic in me thinks that he is a long time fan however.

I don't think someone can make that post by just watching the series. Have they even mentioned that the Targaryen heir has kidnapped Lynna? I am pretty sure they didn't mention Ned going somewhere to rescue Lynnna either.

Maybe there is some background info on the materials HBO put online, but other than that, he must have read the books (or at least a wiki page or two) to have that kinda info.

[Volderon]

I don't think someone can make that post by just watching the series. Have they even mentioned that the Targaryen heir has kidnapped Lynna? I am pretty sure they didn't mention Ned going somewhere to rescue Lynnna either.

Maybe there is some background info on the materials HBO put online, but other than that, he must have read the books (or at least a wiki page or two) to have that kinda info.

Even so, some of the other people that posted notice something weird about Jon's parentage and some people say it's Lyanna.

[Xenophon]

Even so, some of the other people that posted notice something weird about Jon's parentage and some people say it's Lyanna.

Well, they make it blindingly obvious that Jon's mother is a mystery, and that it is very out of character for Ned to have a bastard (thus making it a question whether he really is the father). Combine that with 1) Ned saying you have my blood/are a Stark rather than straight out saying that he's Jon's father and 2) that Ned's dead sister is pretty much the only mysterious women we've heard of so far, and I'm not at all surprised some viewers are guessing he's actually Lyanna's son.

[Fez]

I concede that in all likelihood R+L=J, too many things point to it, I just really hate the idea and hope that its extremely wrong. I'd much prefer an N+?=J, though who ? is I'm not entirely sure. But I doubt its a commoner, and it can't be someone not-yet-introduced in the story since apparently the producers successfully guessed it one of the times they met GRRM, so if Jon really is Ned's son I think Lady Ashara is the only option.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

I'm an R+L=J person myself. But in the show, as of now, Wylla is Jon's mother. Because Ned comes out and says so.

Yet, if you go to the HBO website and see the Stark family tree, it says "Wylla" is Jon's mother. To be more clear, Wylla is in scare-quotes: "Wylla." There's no mistaking it: Ned, Benjen, Catelyn, "Wylla."

Huh? In other words, even though Ned has just said Wylla is Jon's mom, HBO has decided to be especially obvious in their indication that no, Wylla is NOT Jon's mom.

This may be because we learn later in the first season that she is not, or that a serious doubt is raised in a later episode. Yet, I find it strange that HBO would spoilerize the "Wylla" business at this early stage. Whatever their reasons, they're pretty much straight up saying that Ned's lying about Jon's mother from the get-go. Not that I had any doubt, of course, but I think given the family tree we can say definitely that HBO is certain that Wylla isn't Jon's madre.

[Xenophon]

I'm an R+L=J person myself. But in the show, as of now, Wylla is Jon's mother. Because Ned comes out and says so.

Yet, if you go to the HBO website and see the Stark family tree, it says "Wylla" is Jon's mother. To be more clear, Wylla is in scare-quotes: "Wylla." There's no mistaking it: Ned, Benjen, Catelyn, "Wylla."

Huh? In other words, even though Ned has just said Wylla is Jon's mom, HBO has decided to be especially obvious in their indication that no, Wylla is NOT Jon's mom.

This may be because we learn later in the first season that she is not, or that a serious doubt is raised in a later episode. Yet, I find it strange that HBO would spoilerize the "Wylla" business at this early stage. Whatever their reasons, they're pretty much straight up saying that Ned's lying about Jon's mother from the get-go. Not that I had any doubt, of course, but I think given the family tree we can say definitely that HBO is certain that Wylla isn't Jon's madre.

Yeah, considering how the guide says that Robert is Joffrey et. al.'s father without the slightest hint that this might be in doubt, those quotes around Wylla's name are pretty much a massive signal that Wylla is a lie.

Also, I don't think Ned's explanation is very convincing in-show either. He certainly seems like he's hiding something from Robert.

[Kaitscralt]

I like the OP's observations about Benjen. I was also wondering why they showed some of the random cuts to Benjen, and like it as a possible red herring.

As for the possibility of it being true -- no way.

R + L = J :thumbsup:

[SwordoftheMorning]

I'm an R+L=J person myself. But in the show, as of now, Wylla is Jon's mother. Because Ned comes out and says so.

Yet, if you go to the HBO website and see the Stark family tree, it says "Wylla" is Jon's mother. To be more clear, Wylla is in scare-quotes: "Wylla." There's no mistaking it: Ned, Benjen, Catelyn, "Wylla."

Huh? In other words, even though Ned has just said Wylla is Jon's mom, HBO has decided to be especially obvious in their indication that no, Wylla is NOT Jon's mom.

This may be because we learn later in the first season that she is not, or that a serious doubt is raised in a later episode. Yet, I find it strange that HBO would spoilerize the "Wylla" business at this early stage. Whatever their reasons, they're pretty much straight up saying that Ned's lying about Jon's mother from the get-go. Not that I had any doubt, of course, but I think given the family tree we can say definitely that HBO is certain that Wylla isn't Jon's madre.

The quotes around Wylla's name in the family tree would be indicating that Ned and Wylla were not married. But it's pointless to argue, she is NOT his birth mother. Jon in a Stark and Ned sure aint his daddy.

[The Brandon Stark]

I concede that in all likelihood R+L=J, too many things point to it, I just really hate the idea and hope that its extremely wrong. I'd much prefer an N+?=J, though who ? is I'm not entirely sure. But I doubt its a commoner, and it can't be someone not-yet-introduced in the story since apparently the producers successfully guessed it one of the times they met GRRM, so if Jon really is Ned's son I think Lady Ashara is the only option.

Why do you hate the idea? It's all about the character of Jon. He could have accepted Stannis's offer as lord of Winterfell and become a Stark in name but chooses the Wall still. Even if he finds out that R+L=J is true, Jon will still most like do his duty. In one book he went from whiny castle raised spoiled bastard to a man willing to accept his duty and fate. I think it becomes deserving of a character to be son of a prince and possibly in line to inherit the throne. Jon actually has proven himself in four books thus far.

[Fez]

Why do you hate the idea? It's all about the character of Jon. He could have accepted Stannis's offer as lord of Winterfell and become a Stark in name but chooses the Wall still. Even if he finds out that R+L=J is true, Jon will still most like do his duty. In one book he went from whiny castle raised spoiled bastard to a man willing to accept his duty and fate. I think it becomes deserving of a character to be son of a prince and possibly in line to inherit the throne. Jon actually has proven himself in four books thus far.

It's too much like a fairy tale, or something from loads of bad fantasy; the whole "hidden prince" thing is incredibly stale imo. If nothing every comes from it since he realizes it doesn't matter, he's still a Stark and a man of the Night's Watch, I guess I could deal; but if he ends up being crowned a king or a consort of Dany or one of the Dragon's heads (all commonly stated preferred outcomes that I've seen) or something else because of it I'm going to be incredibly disappointed. I trust GRRM, but I'd rather he just stayed away from it entirely.

[Eponine]

I think that R+L=J AND Jon becoming the heroic princely dragon rider PWWP may be the only thing at this point that could COMPLETELY RUIN the series for me and make me regret that I ever started reading it.

At one point, I said that if that happened, I would eat the book, but I think that I'd better just eat that particular chapter, because apparently eating an 800 page book can actually be bad for your health. I'll put it on YouTube when it happens.

[Maia]

even in Dorne with Ariane, who is over 20, still has her father making marriage arrangements for her (she was allowed to say 'no' though). There's no such thing as 'not needing permission to marry' for women of the noble houses.

There is theory and there is practice. In theory, the only noble daughters we saw needing permission of a guardian were under-age. in practice, most Houses would disown members who marry against the wishes of the ruling Lord/Lady and might go even further in some cases.

if he ends upbeing crowned a king or a consort of Dany or one of the Dragon's heads(all commonly stated preferred outcomes that I've seen) or somethingelse because of it I'm going to be incredibly disappointed. I trustGRRM, but I'd rather he just stayed away from it entirely.

I cannot see how GRRM could stay out of it without irreparably tainting Ned. His treatment of Jon only makes sense if Jon is Lyanna's - otherwise it would be pointlessly cruel on many levels and to many people.

Personally, I hope that GRRM takes an interesting tack with the "hidden prince" cliché - namely that nothing comes of it, because Jon didn't inherit whatever it takes to bond with dragons. He doesn't seem to react to fire and heat the way Dany or Egg do/did and of course he already has Ghost.

I also hope that in the end there isn't going to be _one_ person that will have fulfilled the Ptwp prophecies, but a group of them, so that it will never be clear whether those prophecies alluded to a single individual and if so, who it was.

[Fez]

I cannot see how GRRM could stay out of it without irreparably tainting Ned. His treatment of Jon only makes sense if Jon is Lyanna's - otherwise it would be pointlessly cruel on many levels and to many people.

Personally, I hope that GRRM takes an interesting tack with the "hidden prince" cliché - namely that nothing comes of it, because Jon didn't inherit whatever it takes to bond with dragons. He doesn't seem to react to fire and heat the way Dany or Egg do/did and of course he already has Ghost.

I also hope that in the end there isn't going to be _one_ person that will have fulfilled the Ptwp prophecies, but a group of them, so that it will never be clear whether those prophecies alluded to a single individual and if so, who it was.

Is it though? I don't think it would make much difference to Cat if she knew Jon's mother, her problem was he being raised at Winterfell. In fact if she found out his mother was a noblewoman, such as Lady Ashara, that might make things even worse for her, since now Jon could be even more attractive as a usurper to her kids. And as for Jon, I never much got the sense that he cared who his mother was. And for everyone else, knowing the mother is just a bit of random knowledge. It might seem cruel to readers, who've been thinking about this for over a decade in many cases, but not so much to the characters I think.

If it weren't for all the hints of R+L=J, I see nothing wrong with the idea that Ned had a fling with Lady Ashara while recovering after the (or before, depending on what makes sense with the timeline) ToJ incident. Jon is born, Ned tells Ashara he's going back to his wife even though he feels for her, she kills herself, Ned feels guilty over that and that his newborn son doesn't have any other home, and so takes him back to Winterfell to give him a home and to act as a reminder of the price of dishonor/going south/whatever lesson Ned wanted to remember. Doesn't seem cruel to me.

I do agree though that I think GRRM would take an interesting tack with R+L=J, but there's just too much danger of falling into cliche-land and it would be terrible. One idea I like would be that Jon's Lyanna's, but not Rhaegar's. That she hooked up with someone else at somepoint, like Arthur Dayne, and that's Jon's father. That would still be enough to keep Jon's parentage a secret; can't let Robert know. Just keep the Targ blood away from Jon, that's all I ask.

[Tywin's bastard]

It's too much like a fairy tale, or something from loads of bad fantasy; the whole "hidden prince" thing is incredibly stale imo. If nothing every comes from it since he realizes it doesn't matter, he's still a Stark and a man of the Night's Watch, I guess I could deal; but if he ends up being crowned a king or a consort of Dany or one of the Dragon's heads (all commonly stated preferred outcomes that I've seen) or something else because of it I'm going to be incredibly disappointed. I trust GRRM, but I'd rather he just stayed away from it entirely.

There's lots of themes in ASOIAF that have been used tons of times before. I think the book series does a very good job in educating us that reusing themes is not what makes a series good or bad, it's how you decide to use it. That's how you become unique, only the fool think that there are themes that haven't already been done.

And since GRRM has made a lot of good writing around clichés I think it's premature to assume how Jon's story will play out.

I also think a lot of readers have fallen into the expected trap of thinking R+L=J is obvious now that they've gotten used to the idea, to the point where they make it sound like anyone reading the first book for the first time will immediately see it.

[flyingwind66]

I think GRRM just needs to freaking finish writing this series... I hope something gets fracking revealed in aDwD and I am also an adamant believer in R+L=J and I think the tv show thus far is pointing towards it in way obvious ways...

Robert keeps going on about "What Rheagar did to Lyanna!" and Ned's "You have my blood" thing... although amusing that the Benjen red herring is popping up... the tv audience isn't privy to the timeline information that the rest of us have.

[Leofric]

although amusing that the Benjen red herring is popping up... the tv audience isn't privy to the timeline information that the rest of us have.

And they also left out the end of Benjen's and Jon's talk in the novel at the Winterfell banquet, where Jon says to Benjen something to the effect "don't lecture me, you're not my father" and Benjen agrees with him and says it is a pity he is not Jon's father. Basically implying everyone would be better off if Jon had been Benjen's bastard.

[Brewmaster]

That's not how it works in their world, heritage is passed through the father. Nobody says Robb is a Tully, he's always a Stark, because his father is a Stark.

But you already invalidated your own argument by these standards. If you are going for the technicalities of what constitutes taking a name as being something Ned would have taken into consideration with his "you are a stark" line, then Ned was lying or wrong regardless.

Because of "how it works in their world", Jon ISN'T a Stark, regardless of parentage. If he's Ned's bastard he's a Snow. If he's Benjen's bastard, he's still a snow. He's NOT a Stark...period, by the technical definition. So clearly Ned wasn't using that definition. All Ned meant is that he had Stark blood, which is true if it's Ned's blood, Lyanna's, or Benjen's

[Jojen]

In the first episode, when Jon tells Benjen that "Lady Stark thought it might insult the royal family to seat a bastard in their midst," (irony!), Benjen doesn't give him any pained or mysterious looks nor does he look particularly sympathetic IF he was indeed Jon's father.

Benjen goes on to say "We have no families. None of us will ever father sons." And he says it with a straight face, IF he was Jon's father.

Granted, Jon looks more like Benjen than he looks like Ned.

In the book, Tyrion tells Jon that he has more of the north in him than his brothers do. What is this based on? Is he implying that he looks more like Ned than the others (which I think the books confirm)? Or he just has more of an air of a man of the north than either Robb, Bran, or Rickon?