Spring Bass Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The first thread is close to the 21-page locking point, so I started the new one. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'm curious as to why Seswatha never tried to use the Gnosis to summon Ciphrang. I wonder if this is something that requires analogy to approach, rather than the mathematical directness of the Gnosis. Right now it seems the Gnosis trumps all other sorcery, save perhaps the Psukhe, but if anagnosis is poetry to the proof-logic of the Gnosis I would think certain things would be better accomplished with it.I look it as similar to an interface to interact with complex objects -> a steering to drive a car, or the joystick to interact with a 3-D simulation from a video game. Illusions to fool the brain, compulsions to chain the soul -> these things, to me, would require something indirect as trying to hold the variables is something I don't think even Khellus could accomplish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakLoufer Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Anyone else find Thelli adorable? The stutter, the tacky clothes . . .Since it seems a Anasurimbor kid is dying each book, I fear she's probably next. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Godsgrace Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Anyone else find Thelli adorable? The stutter, the tacky clothes . . .Since it seems a Anasurimbor kid is dying each book, I fear she's probably next. :(Yeah, I love Thelli. Easily the most sympathetic character in the book, IMHO (perhaps even in the whole series). I hope she survives, but chances of any Kellhus' kids look slim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishuäl Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'm curious as to why Seswatha never tried to use the Gnosis to summon Ciphrang. I wonder if this is something that requires analogy to approach, rather than the mathematical directness of the Gnosis. Right now it seems the Gnosis trumps all other sorcery, save perhaps the Psukhe, but if anagnosis is poetry to the proof-logic of the Gnosis I would think certain things would be better accomplished with it.Well, the most obvious answer is that Ciphrang, as Achamian explains, can harldy be controlled and are just plain evil. On that note, I do doubt Khellus actually walked the Outside when he trained with Iyokus. It would seem so much easier to summon them, kill them and then lie about it.Then on a side note, I think we can fairly say that Anagnosis and Phsuke are about equally powerful, with the Phsuke having more potetial of greater successes or faliures (Moënghus...)And I think Daimotic sorcery could probably be done through the Gnosis, but to what greater effect? Maybe it's a different strand of sorcery altogether, as I have seen it so far, just one prudent sorcerers don't mess with, that is, if they're not Dûnyain.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Anyone else find Thelli adorable? The stutter, the tacky clothes . . .Since it seems a Anasurimbor kid is dying each book, I fear she's probably next. :(Kelmomas likes her. That ensures her continued survival. The White-Luck doesn't seem like he plans on killing her. His future-memories indicate his targets are Esmenet and Kellhus. Moreover, Fanayal, if he takes Momemn, probably won't kill Thelli. I mean, who would make a more glorious concubine than one of Kellhus' daughters? But even if she is in trouble, I'm gonna say it here:Kelmomas seems like he'd save her. I wonder how his being one of the Few will turn out. Will he learn the Gnosis? Or, will he meet Meppa when Fanayal takes the capital, and try to learn the Psukhe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I suspect Kelmomas will rape Thelli just to see what it's like, and she'll lay there passively just because that's what she does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Eh, Fane was able to discover the Psukhe while wandering the desert. It's not an intellectual pursuit. I think it could be rediscovered fairly easily so long as tales of the Cishaurim survive and those of the Few among the Fanim blind themselves in hopes of gaining the Psukhe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Wait...Kel is one of the Few? Damn I totally missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakLoufer Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Wait...Kel is one of the Few? Damn I totally missed that.Yeah, you'd think Kellhus could tell, and if he was he'd send him off to Hogswarts.But then, can Kellhus really not read Kel? I guess that means the Four Horned Brother is protecting him. But how come Maith knew (or suspected) something was wrong with Kel?Does Kellhus know Kel is dangerous and simply wants him to cause problems? Why does Kellhus want the empire to become unstable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Does Kellhus know Kel is dangerous and simply wants him to cause problems? Why does Kellhus want the empire to become unstable? Because instability attracts destabilizing forces.Because Fayanal attacking the empire means they're not attacking the Great Ordeal. Because Zeum siding with Fayanal and attacking means that they're not siding with the Consult.Because every skin spy that is in the empire is one that isn't in the camp.It is because, simply, a strong empire is one that invites attack to the more vulnerable places instead. And things like his supply line can be left basically undefended if he doesn't have to worry that they'll be attacked because his enemies attack elsewhere. By the time the supply like would be disrupted due to the empire failing, it's too late and they've already outdistanced the supplies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 But how come Maith knew (or suspected) something was wrong with Kel?Maith didn't suspect anything about Kel until Inrilatas told him. As far as Maith was concerned, Kel was simply a very-human child of Kellhus'. See, all the Half-Dunyain possess a flaw, where they assume their superior intellect makes them better than humans, but unlike true Dunyain, they don't have pride literally bred out of them. This emotional interference blinds them to things that Dunyain would notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Kellhus in contact with still in the New Empire still. He knew when Maith and Esmi had their falling out. I suppose we must entertain the possibility that he knew on his own from the probability trance, but I highly doubt it. He cut off sorcerous communications between the GO and the NE. Kel told Proyas that he was going to abide by the non-communication. That doesn't mean much. Kellhus lies when expedient. But Esmi was also in the dark. She hadn't heard from Kellhus since the break in communications. Raises some questions. Who is Kellhus in contact with? If he is going to stay in contact, why keep Esmi in the dark? To Kalbear's point, maybe he keeps Esmi in the dark to hasten the destabilization. But why keep in contact at all. According to Maith, the NE had served its purpose, so Kel shouldn't care what is going on back there. Since Kellhus is still keeping tabs, what is there in the NE that Kellhus wants to keep tabs on?Oh yeah, and why doesn't Proyas call Kellhus out when Kellhus admits to knowing what is going on in the NE? Kellhus told Proyas he was breaking contact as well. What game is going on with that?Sorry, I have no answers in this post, just questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I presume Proyas figured Kellhus didn't communicate but was fire watching the NE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I presume Proyas figured Kellhus didn't communicate but was fire watching the NE.Oh, that's a neat solution. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakLoufer Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Maith didn't suspect anything about Kel until Inrilatas told him. As far as Maith was concerned, Kel was simply a very-human child of Kellhus'. See, all the Half-Dunyain possess a flaw, where they assume their superior intellect makes them better than humans, but unlike true Dunyain, they don't have pride literally bred out of them. This emotional interference blinds them to things that Dunyain would notice."This is Kelmomas's work?""He isn't what he seems, Uncle."[snip]"I have suspected as much," the Shriah said -- pg. 264. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 "I have suspected as much," the Shriah said He lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It is interesting that we have little idea how much any of the Dunyain characters know or are capable of beyond Kel who is a POV. I barely comprehend why Inralatus tried to murder Maitha, assumed it was because every time he gets to break a taboo he feels less suffocated. I loved the idea that he can see/feel the presence/weight of human mores and customs. Nice touch on Bakker's part, would love to see the concept carried further in a novella or short story about the New Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I think it's because Inralatus believes that his mother will fail and that father is out of the picture and that Maithanet will kill him once he has the opportunity (a la Moenghus drowning the crazy ones).Good point. On another note, I wonder if Khellus plans to let Zeum conquer the NE. I mean, Fayanal might be allowed to govern some aspect of it but this seems unlikely - I suspect Zeum has the might to depose him after he's fulfilled his purpose. Zeum's beliefs are closer to that of the NE, and the Zeum would be more tolerant. If Zeum takes over the Empire, and the No God walks, there will be enough organization left to hold against the Consult. Currently, however, I am thinking Khellus plans to destroy the Consult and then awaken the No-God. As powerful as the No-God is - strong enough that apparently Aurax and Aurang were its slaves - it seems to have serious limitations to its ability to act alone. It might also require sustenance, something the Ordeal can provide for a time...perhaps only long enough to deplete the world's population to cut off the Outside.I really hope UC comes out next year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generic Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Finally finished. Amazon's betrayal will not be forgotten.Several unsorted observations:Why do they call Iokys the Necromancer? He summons demons not the dead. Makes me suspect chanv is dead people.The army of the South basically had "disposable" written on their banners.The last scene with Sorweel seemed rather silly. I suppose he was starting to get a little too friendly to be called an enemy.Khellus seems to prepare to die. I can't really think of another reason why he suddenly tells Proyas the truth. Anyone remember the scene in one of the Dune sequels where they find the Worm's spice hoard complete with instructions on what to do? I think Khellus may prepare something similar.Even Serwa got the nightmares before learning the Gnosis. That is probably very significant because it means that it is still true that everyone who learns it gets converted automatically. If that is used it would be another Dune(sequel) parallel. And there is only one school left that both wants the Gnosis and is not yet under control.Even if the Fanim take over halve the empire they couldn't keep it without Zeüm's help. And the next ruler is now without confidant and a military adviser of Kel's oldest son. That may have even been the reason the nobles were allowed to take their slaves only to have to slaughter them. And Sorweel remarks that his invitation to the council was probably about the Zeümi as well. A clear indication that there are further plans beyond getting the army to Golgottherath.Little Kel is certainly not lacking in passion. Would probably make a good Cish. And the Famin are on the verge of capturing Momnen. Could that be the reason the NE was set up to fail? Complete crackpot but maybe the voice in little Kel's head belongs to one of the demon heads? They should have some function beyond making faces.Maybe old Kel really wants to save the world. Not only from the Consult but also from damnation. But speaking in the God's voice requires emotion he lacks. So goodbye to evil ninja Jesus and hello to creepy cannibal Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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