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Summer Bass

The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

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I'm curious as to why Seswatha never tried to use the Gnosis to summon Ciphrang. I wonder if this is something that requires analogy to approach, rather than the mathematical directness of the Gnosis. Right now it seems the Gnosis trumps all other sorcery, save perhaps the Psukhe, but if anagnosis is poetry to the proof-logic of the Gnosis I would think certain things would be better accomplished with it.

I look it as similar to an interface to interact with complex objects -> a steering to drive a car, or the joystick to interact with a 3-D simulation from a video game. Illusions to fool the brain, compulsions to chain the soul -> these things, to me, would require something indirect as trying to hold the variables is something I don't think even Khellus could accomplish.

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Anyone else find Thelli adorable? The stutter, the tacky clothes . . .

Since it seems a Anasurimbor kid is dying each book, I fear she's probably next. :(

Yeah, I love Thelli. Easily the most sympathetic character in the book, IMHO (perhaps even in the whole series). I hope she survives, but chances of any Kellhus' kids look slim.

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I'm curious as to why Seswatha never tried to use the Gnosis to summon Ciphrang. I wonder if this is something that requires analogy to approach, rather than the mathematical directness of the Gnosis. Right now it seems the Gnosis trumps all other sorcery, save perhaps the Psukhe, but if anagnosis is poetry to the proof-logic of the Gnosis I would think certain things would be better accomplished with it.

Well, the most obvious answer is that Ciphrang, as Achamian explains, can harldy be controlled and are just plain evil. On that note, I do doubt Khellus actually walked the Outside when he trained with Iyokus. It would seem so much easier to summon them, kill them and then lie about it.

Then on a side note, I think we can fairly say that Anagnosis and Phsuke are about equally powerful, with the Phsuke having more potetial of greater successes or faliures (Moënghus...)

And I think Daimotic sorcery could probably be done through the Gnosis, but to what greater effect? Maybe it's a different strand of sorcery altogether, as I have seen it so far, just one prudent sorcerers don't mess with, that is, if they're not Dûnyain....

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Well, the most obvious answer is that Ciphrang, as Achamian explains, can harldy be controlled and are just plain evil. On that note, I do doubt Khellus actually walked the Outside when he trained with Iyokus. It would seem so much easier to summon them, kill them and then lie about it.

That's a really good point. The demon heads are probably used by Kellhus to make it seem that he's been to The Outside, but perhaps he and Iyokus summoned them and he killed them. They are a symbol to his followers to further cement the image of his divinity. Another manipulation.

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Anyone else find Thelli adorable? The stutter, the tacky clothes . . .

Since it seems a Anasurimbor kid is dying each book, I fear she's probably next. :(

Kelmomas likes her. That ensures her continued survival. The White-Luck doesn't seem like he plans on killing her. His future-memories indicate his targets are Esmenet and Kellhus. Moreover, Fanayal, if he takes Momemn, probably won't kill Thelli. I mean, who would make a more glorious concubine than one of Kellhus' daughters?

But even if she is in trouble, I'm gonna say it here:

Kelmomas seems like he'd save her.

I wonder how his being one of the Few will turn out. Will he learn the Gnosis?

Or, will he meet Meppa when Fanayal takes the capital, and try to learn the Psukhe?

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I suspect Kelmomas will rape Thelli just to see what it's like, and she'll lay there passively just because that's what she does.

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I suspect Kelmomas will rape Thelli just to see what it's like, and she'll lay there passively just because that's what she does.

The amazing thing about this post is that it could be a deft bit of humor or it could be a genuine prediction. :lol:

I'm still intrigued by Meppa, and I don't mean just who he is but how he factors in on the chess board. Clearly he's Fanayal's man, but I'm still a bit perplexed that Fanayal has one Water-bearer, one of "stone-breaker" power, and yet...he's the only one. We don't know a lot about the Psyche, but it seems clear that it is something that can be taught to one of The Few if they blind themselves, and then their passion will largely determine their skill level. Can't they find any Fanim who are of the Few and get to the training?

If I were Fanayal I would be terrified of losing Meppa because as far as we know he'd lose the Cishaurim permanently, and then the "accursed Water" that had returned would be lost again.

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Eh, Fane was able to discover the Psukhe while wandering the desert. It's not an intellectual pursuit. I think it could be rediscovered fairly easily so long as tales of the Cishaurim survive and those of the Few among the Fanim blind themselves in hopes of gaining the Psukhe.

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Eh, Fane was able to discover the Psukhe while wandering the desert. It's not an intellectual pursuit. I think it could be rediscovered fairly easily so long as tales of the Cishaurim survive and those of the Few among the Fanim blind themselves in hopes of gaining the Psukhe.

That's a good point that it could probably be rediscovered, but I still think it is strange that they are just settling for Meppa.

Something I don't think we've talked about: no Chorae in Iothiah. By design by Kellhus?

Wait...Kel is one of the Few? Damn I totally missed that.

Same, but it was brought up in the last thread. He can see wards, apparently.

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Wait...Kel is one of the Few? Damn I totally missed that.

Yeah, you'd think Kellhus could tell, and if he was he'd send him off to Hogswarts.

But then, can Kellhus really not read Kel? I guess that means the Four Horned Brother is protecting him. But how come Maith knew (or suspected) something was wrong with Kel?

Does Kellhus know Kel is dangerous and simply wants him to cause problems? Why does Kellhus want the empire to become unstable?

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Does Kellhus know Kel is dangerous and simply wants him to cause problems? Why does Kellhus want the empire to become unstable?
Because instability attracts destabilizing forces.

Because Fayanal attacking the empire means they're not attacking the Great Ordeal.

Because Zeum siding with Fayanal and attacking means that they're not siding with the Consult.

Because every skin spy that is in the empire is one that isn't in the camp.

It is because, simply, a strong empire is one that invites attack to the more vulnerable places instead. And things like his supply line can be left basically undefended if he doesn't have to worry that they'll be attacked because his enemies attack elsewhere. By the time the supply like would be disrupted due to the empire failing, it's too late and they've already outdistanced the supplies.

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But how come Maith knew (or suspected) something was wrong with Kel?

Maith didn't suspect anything about Kel until Inrilatas told him. As far as Maith was concerned, Kel was simply a very-human child of Kellhus'. See, all the Half-Dunyain possess a flaw, where they assume their superior intellect makes them better than humans, but unlike true Dunyain, they don't have pride literally bred out of them. This emotional interference blinds them to things that Dunyain would notice.

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Kellhus in contact with still in the New Empire still. He knew when Maith and Esmi had their falling out. I suppose we must entertain the possibility that he knew on his own from the probability trance, but I highly doubt it. He cut off sorcerous communications between the GO and the NE. Kel told Proyas that he was going to abide by the non-communication. That doesn't mean much. Kellhus lies when expedient. But Esmi was also in the dark. She hadn't heard from Kellhus since the break in communications.

Raises some questions. Who is Kellhus in contact with? If he is going to stay in contact, why keep Esmi in the dark? To Kalbear's point, maybe he keeps Esmi in the dark to hasten the destabilization. But why keep in contact at all. According to Maith, the NE had served its purpose, so Kel shouldn't care what is going on back there. Since Kellhus is still keeping tabs, what is there in the NE that Kellhus wants to keep tabs on?

Oh yeah, and why doesn't Proyas call Kellhus out when Kellhus admits to knowing what is going on in the NE? Kellhus told Proyas he was breaking contact as well. What game is going on with that?

Sorry, I have no answers in this post, just questions.

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Maith didn't suspect anything about Kel until Inrilatas told him. As far as Maith was concerned, Kel was simply a very-human child of Kellhus'. See, all the Half-Dunyain possess a flaw, where they assume their superior intellect makes them better than humans, but unlike true Dunyain, they don't have pride literally bred out of them. This emotional interference blinds them to things that Dunyain would notice.

"This is Kelmomas's work?"

"He isn't what he seems, Uncle."

[snip]

"I have suspected as much," the Shriah said

-- pg. 264.

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