The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

It does seem that the following is true:

1) Kellhus wants Achamian on this slog

2) The Captain is a fanatic of Kellhus and has strict orders

3) The Captain is willing to see Achamian killed at Sauglish

Something doesn't fit here unless the Captain broke or went mad or something.

This is bothering me. Either we are all missing something, Bakker is being overly vague or he's lost control of this story arc. I'll be annoyed if Bakker is being overly vague. I suppose what Kellhus wants Akka to find is still within the ruins of Ishual but then why was Cleric to kill him at Sauglish?

Also, wtf was Cleric even around for? He was cool and mysterious, but he didn't accomplish hardly anything in the grand arc of the story that I can tell. Maybe more will come out, but I'm skeptical.

On another note, the fact that Earwa is some sort of keystone world in the cosmos seems to me like the "iceberg tipping over." More here is at stake than just Earwa. Why is Earwa the keystone, the "promised world?" Probably something to do with the Nonmen prior to the coming of the Ark. Hopefully a real reason will be revealed and this just wont be hand-waved in the future books.

Also, the fact that the Inchoroi have reduced multiple worlds to "the 144,000k" speaks to me of their competence. That much rape and genocide is a tall order. The "promised world" just happens to be a much heavier lift.

And concerning the New Empire, I mostly agree with Kal. The NE is a shiny bauble to distract the gods attention. Also, the more chaos in the NE the easier the reduction to 144k will be and Kellhus needs to hit that number somehow before he can rewrite the code of Damnation. I've read TTT a couple of times and I don't remember their being any clear reason given why Kellhus would not come to the same conclusions about the Outside as Moenghus, the Inchoroi and the Dunyain. So I can only assume his goal is the same while his means may be different.

[lokisnow]

If the Traveler in the TJE prologue is an Ishterebinth nonman, what does that mean? This only really makes sense if you have Ishterebinth allied with the Dunyain and the Dunyain are working against Kellhus. This doesn't really make sense since Cleric is already with the skin eaters.

It's possible the Traveler was not looking for Kosotor and the Skin Eaters at all, he was looking for NilGiccas.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

If the Traveler in the TJE prologue is an Ishterebinth nonman, what does that mean? This only really makes sense if you have Ishterebinth allied with the Dunyain and the Dunyain are working against Kellhus. This doesn't really make sense since Cleric is already with the skin eaters.

It's possible the Traveler was not looking for Kosotor and the Skin Eaters at all, he was looking for NilGiccas.

That's what I was thinking, but I was thinking it was Soma. Or I should say it was Tsuor, the skin spy who replaced Soma. We know he wasnt' there watching Mimara or Akka so he was probably there watching NG.

We also know that Kellhus sent the Captain out there to start a scalping co nearby Akka's tower long before the Traveler showed up.

[unJon]

Re: Traveler. I thought this was now clearly someone from Kel telling Kosoter to go hang out in that town and wait for Akka and Mim. I figured Mim fleeing Monmen triggered Kel sending the Traveler on timing.

[Piper]

Also, the more chaos in the NE the easier the reduction to 144k will be and Kellhus needs to hit that number somehow before he can rewrite the code of Damnation. I've read TTT a couple of times and I don't remember their being any clear reason given why Kellhus would not come to the same conclusions about the Outside as Moenghus, the Inchoroi and the Dunyain. So I can only assume his goal is the same while his means may be different.

You answer your own question here. If Kellhus can (or thinks he can) alter the rules of what is damned and what isn't, then he wouldn't want to seal the world from the Outside.

Of course, he could be trying to close the world, most likely by leading the Ordeal to its demise and helping the resurrection of the No-God, but assuming he is or thinks he is the God, then he wouldn't need to.

[Ku.]

I started skimming most of this book. Only the Kelmomas parts are interesting to me, really. Way too much magic to the point where it's getting plumb retarded. Achamian's arc is somewhat interesting but I mostly skimmed until it got to a good part, it's mostly monotonous.

The Yatwer parts are completely uninteresting and came out of nowhere, were they even mentioned in the first trilogy? Now they dominate this series. And the several instances of granny porn seemed rather unnecessary.

[navrat]

Also, wtf was Cleric even around for? He was cool and mysterious, but he didn't accomplish hardly anything in the grand arc of the story that I can tell. Maybe more will come out, but I'm skeptical.

Maybe the primary function of Cleric was to give them, and eventually become the source of quirri. Something in them is radically changing because of the quirri and might have an effect on Mimara's baby too

[lokisnow]

Note that the Traveler was alone and the Skin Eaters were on the long side, possibly in the mop. No man could survive such a journey alone, even Kosotor wouldn't risk it. That points towards the Traveler being Nonman, Dunyain, or the thing called Soma. I wonder if the skin eaters met Cleric on that journey or if he'd been with them before that.

Yeah I sorta think the qirri was important and one of the primary reasons for his presence. Akka will also probably relate the history of Nil'Giccas to Mimara which will bring us a new perspective on the ancient days and first apocalypse that goes beyond the bits of the TTT appendix. Cleric also presents a very useful literary device, Cleric is the reason the Consult watch the Skin Eaters, Akka/Mimara are the reason Kosotor watches the skin eaters, having Cleric allows Bakker to have both factions be aware of the Skin eaters without Kellhus knowing the Consult also watch them (and vice versa). If Kellhus is ignorant that Nil'Giccas is with the Skin Eaters and the Consult is ignorant that Akka is with Nil'Giccas that is a fun and fascinating little parallel between the two. However, Kellhus probably can firewatch Kosotor and knows NG is there. Also, Kellhus being unaware of the status of Nil'Giccas within Ishterebinth and Ishterebinth's status regarding the Consult is a potentially massive weakpoint for him. of course he's aware of this as a weakness, but if he deceives himself on how well he faceread the nonmen then what happens?

[jurble]

The Traveler just seems to be some sort of New Empire functionary, asking the Scalpers to sit in town and wait for Mimara and Achamian. That's it, not fancy. He could even be an Imperial out of Fatwall. I don't think there's a great mystery regarding him. He's human. We know the Skin Eaters were formed with the express purpose of watching Achamian. Kellhus knows that his Great Ordeal will probably prompt Achamian emergence back into the world. It is what it is.

[jurble]

It's entirely possible he doesn't know that the Coffers have a dragon in them. That's irrelevant. I think he wants to just keep Mimara, more than anyone, away from the Ordeal, since she is the proof that he's lying about being a prophet.

I like that Aurang knows Achamian by name. How many other Mandate sorcerers are so well-known to the Consult, you think? I mean, Achamian was on their watch-list even before he met Kellhus.

[Volsungr]

YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND - KELIS 's milkshake MAKES YOU LOVE!

Laughing so hard. I don't have anything else to add and don't want to distract from the speculations on the workings of earwa but that cracked me up.

[lokisnow]

I think a new empire functionary is least likely. It's the simplest. but it doesn't make sense in the context of what we learned of the Long Side. It is possible he's from Fatwall but I'm inclined to disregard that since I forgot about the damn town.

[Piper]

It's entirely possible he doesn't know that the Coffers have a dragon in them. That's irrelevant. I think he wants to just keep Mimara, more than anyone, away from the Ordeal, since she is the proof that he's lying about being a prophet.

If he just wanted to keep Mimara from the Ordeal, why not have Kosotor kill her? Why lead her to Ishual, within a reasonable distance of the Ordeal? Either he's not worried about her Eye, he doesn't know about her Eye (doubtful), or he actively wants her Eye to see something (himself? The No-God?). And I don't like those first two options: if he doesn't care, again, why go through all this rigmarole? And I don't like any theory that's premised on Kellhus not knowing something at this point. So I think the only logical conclusion is that he's trying to position her somewhere.

As a corollary, I remember some talk after TJE about Akka's bizarre Seswatha dreams being sent by or some product of Kellhus. This would include the dream where he learns a map to Ishual is in the coffers. It's just so convenient, I don't know how it can't be Dunyain manipulation. Which, to me, means Kellhus was either aware of, or even planted, the map in the Coffers. (Corollary to the corollary: Kellhus wanted no one else to disturb the Coffers, so he somehow got the dragon to nest there, and got Cleric to join the Skin Eaters so they would have someone strong enough to defeat it, but that's going way too far down Crackpot Lane).

So, I think its a somewhat reasonable hypothesis at this point that Kellhus actively and concertedly placed Akka and Mimara at Ishual, and near his Ordeal. Not because he wanted them out of the way, but because he has some use for them. What that could be is the real question. (The obvious answer is have Mimara use her eye on Kellhus, realize he is the God, and convince Akka to reconcile with [and kneel before] Kellhus, but why would Kellhus care so much about one sorcerer?)

[Madness]

I'm just so damned busy but I felt the need to jump in a for a moment. I really want to continue the conversation that was going on about Bakker's schtick but for the moment I just wanted to point some things out.

Kellhus can't be responsible for everything.

What the hell was up with that fire-watching anyways? Beyond being another overt LOTR analogy, how does that shit work? Can Kellhus really see any fire in Earwa?

Cleric was with the Skin Eaters in the prologue of TJE. Thus, Traveller cannot be Cleric. Also Traveller pays almost no attention to Cleric nor does the perspective suggest that Traveller can see the Mark. He's looking for Ironsoul. I doubt its so simple as the thing called Soma or a message from Kellhus. Kosoter and the Skin Eaters have been in Marrow for a couple years at this point, I believe.

Drusas Achamian ain't just one sorcerer. He's got something else going for him. Just some goddamn heart or something. He's got no Metagnostic Cants going for him but he is a Mandate Schoolman at the center of too many events in PON. Does this make him special? I would suggest that there aren't too many Sorcerers in Earwa strong enough or smart enough to take on a deranged Nonman Quya alone.

Honestly, read the books people. Sometimes your questions, not necessarily the ones here but I've been following along with the threads, are just ignorant.

[Piper]

Kellhus can't be responsible for everything.

But, conversely, Kellhus must be responsible for something. The whole conceit of the series is that people are motivated by what they do not know, and can be manipulated by those who understand the rules.

Bakker spent three books building up Kellhus' ability to get people to do, think, and feel what he wants, and did so by having the reader ride shotgun to a Dunyain's mind. Now, Bakker has taken away any narrative from Kellhus' point of view for the next two novels (and counting). That we should be trying to figure out what Kellhus is up to, how he is coming before the characters and events of The Aspect Emperor seems to be part of the game. Especially when we are told, outright, just how much influence he has over Kosoter Iron Soul.

[Sci-2]

But, conversely, Kellhus must be responsible for something. The whole conceit of the series is that people are motivated by what they do not know, and can be manipulated by those who understand the rules.

Bakker spent three books building up Kellhus' ability to get people to do, think, and feel what he wants, and did so by having the reader ride shotgun to a Dunyain's mind. Now, Bakker has taken away any narrative from Kellhus' point of view for the next two novels (and counting). That we should be trying to figure out what Kellhus is up to, how he is coming before the characters and events of The Aspect Emperor seems to be part of the game. Especially when we are told, outright, just how much influence he has over Kosoter Iron Soul.

I think one of the challenges here is that Kellhus's unwritten actions and abilities are almost completely in the dark. I actually wish he had gone up against a cadre of Quya mages. I would love to see what other powers the metagnosis has yielded after so many years.

I'm not even sure what clues there are to let us infer what his motivations must be. At the end of TTT he seemed to genuinely believe that he was the Harbinger, but what that even means to him is left in doubt. Right now I think he plans to destroy the Consult but keep the mechanisms of the No-God's creation for himself. We have no idea how long Dunyain live, but with the Tekne and varied branches of magic he should, conceivably, rewrite the rules of the Outside and stop damnation. This might require a disenchantment of the world, but given souls are literally bubbles to the Outside what that means is again questionable.

There is also a technique Bakker uses, a gradual revelation of metaphysics, that works on one level but gets frustrating the next. For the first three books, there was no reason to think any of the gods were necessarily real. Worshiping them might bring about a connection to the Outside, or the abstract God of Gods (this seems like the indescribable Divine, Bramhan of Hinduism to me), but in this second series we see that the Mother of Birth is a cognizant entity of some sort.

I also think the fire watching was kind of left field, but then it might be part of the TTT. It seems the TTT is a stage of enlightenment that allows for some supernatural powers, in a similar vein to ascetics in Taoism and Hinduism.

[Yellow]

It's a pretty big leap to conclude that TTT affords supernatural powers. There's no hint of that at all.

I can't remember the details of the Proyas fire watching scene, but is it possible that Kellhus was hypnotising him?

[Madness]

Lol, you make me ranty. It's like having an itchy trigger finger.

The whole conceit of the series is that people are motivated by what they do not know, and can be manipulated by those who understand the rules.

I really, really hope that this is not the sum of all perspectives. This is just one mechanism by which Earwa's, but more importantly our world's, societal and cultural interactions turns upon. To reduce Bakker's books, or the plot, to this one concept is ridiculous. But hey, to each their own. Maybe that's just where everyone's evolution is at or perhaps that is what hits closest to the readership's egos. This series and these books are an unreal wealth of philosophy and knowledge by a genuine, honest man with a decent mind on his shoulders. And they truly are deeper than deep. Continously, in my research I find that Bakker's stories have been describing things I'm only learning about and realizing.

I do agree with sciborg about the gradual revelation of metaphysics. Each book describes a revolution in our understanding of Earwan metaphysics that rewrites the realities of the previous books. I still have yet to figure out TWLW's but, perhaps, on a reread.

The TTT, btw, is a conceptual construction utilizing memetic social theory. Strictly, mundane though it may include the use of arcane knowledge. Specifically, it's a thought had by Dunyain, those who seek to dominate all circumstance using the shortest path, and that any Dunyain who remains Dunyain among the Worldborn is destined to have. Kellhus and Inrilatas simply have taken it the farthest. By a Dunyain's nature does it come to control society and culture.

I think one of the challenges here is that Kellhus's unwritten actions and abilities are almost completely in the dark. I actually wish he had gone up against a cadre of Quya mages. I would love to see what other powers the metagnosis has yielded after so many years.

I'm reminded of, I believe, Ku upthread who suggested that he wasn't reading much of the book.

Kellhus has about a paragraph and some of complete and utter asskickary where he saves the remnants of the Volakati and Mandate from their running battle after the destruction of the Southern Army. He completely fucking destroys. I can't hope to recapture it in words and remind you all of it, so just go re-read it and drink it in.

Nuff. Said.

[Sil]

Did anyone else notice anything odd about Serwa/Moe/Sorweel's final "teleport"?

Sorweel felt pulled apart or something? When he awoke on the hill to find himself alone, I wondered if he hadn't been split into *two* Sorweels. And I'm still a little suspicious something like that is going on.

When he wakes up he notices not just that Moe and Serwa are missing, but all their camping gear, etc, too. Who packs all their stuff for a quickie in the bushes?

Crackpot theories, perhaps:

1. There are now two sets of Serwa/Moe/Sorweels. One set "normal", the other set disturbed and capricious somehow?

2. Part of Sorweel was left behind in the "Outside" from the faulty cant, and is dreaming/hallucinating/being teased by ciphrang?

I find it hard to believe the whole mention of the messed up teleport cant is completely irrelevant, at any rate.

[Sci-2]

I'm reminded of, I believe, Ku upthread who suggested that he wasn't reading much of the book.

Kellhus has about a paragraph and some of complete and utter asskickary where he saves the remnants of the Volakati and Mandate from their running battle after the destruction of the Southern Army. He completely fucking destroys. I can't hope to recapture it in words and remind you all of it, so just go re-read it and drink it in.

Nuff. Said.

I don't think he used the metagnosis for that, seemed about the same thing he did at the end of TTT. Also, I would have liked to see the logic of his power development, similar to how he made a Cant of Calling a Cant of Transposition.

Edit - actually, thinking back on it, the stuff he does with the rings of rock might have been metagnostic...stuff like fire watching makes me nervous, because it feels like Kellhus can just grab new powers when the plot requires it.