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The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)


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I'm sure I'm pushing the mods here but are you fucked?

At the end of TTT Kellhus barely beats the Cishaurim. Let me stress this. He does use some rudimentary Gnosis but for the most part just uses his newly realized Cant of Transposing to get behind the Cishaurim and strictly cuts them down.

In TWLW, he straight up outsorceries everyone. Clearly not even the Grandmaster of the Mandate can save his own life or the lives of his Brothers. Kellhus walks in there like nothing, looking like a fucking lightening star, and upends Sranc in their thousands. So far, once again, he is the visual, sorcery, possibly prophetic anti-thesis to the No-God. But he kicks ass with sorcery, instead of at the end of TTT where he scrambles by with wits and sleight of magic.

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I'm sure I'm pushing the mods here but are you fucked?

At the end of TTT Kellhus barely beats the Cishaurim. Let me stress this. He does use some rudimentary Gnosis but for the most part just uses his newly realized Cant of Transposing to get behind the Cishaurim and strictly cuts them down.

In TWLW, he straight up outsorceries everyone. Clearly not even the Grandmaster of the Mandate can save his own life or the lives of his Brothers. Kellhus walks in there like nothing, looking like a fucking lightening star, and upends Sranc in their thousands. So far, once again, he is the visual, sorcery, possibly prophetic anti-thesis to the No-God. But he kicks ass with sorcery, instead of at the end of TTT where he scrambles by with wits and sleight of magic.

You might have the right of it -> You seem much more emotionally invested than I am. But then, as counter, no sorcerer besides Kellhus has ever done the thing with the rings of stones. If I recall the description correctly, it is similar to a gyroscope with him at the center.

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Agreed. I'm definitely emotional invested in Bakker's work. It hurts to see a fiction like this go unrecognized, or worse, misinterpreted.

Ku's commentary, among others who read the book out of order, threw me off. But realistically, I just dislike conceit in opinions where none is necessary. The books so often speak for themselves and we sit here arguing and debating semantics that have some factual answer within the story.

To be fair, also, sciborg, I wasn't directly pointing this at you or your words. You just happen to be responding.

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Agreed. I'm definitely emotional invested in Bakker's work. It hurts to see a fiction like this go unrecognized, or worse, misinterpreted.

Ku's commentary, among others who read the book out of order, threw me off. But realistically, I just dislike conceit in opinions where none is necessary. The books so often speak for themselves and we sit here arguing and debating semantics that have some factual answer within the story.

To be fair, also, sciborg, I wasn't directly pointing this at you or your words. You just happen to be responding.

Heh, don't get me wrong, didn't take it personal and I love Bakker's writing. And the first series was, in many ways, groundbreaking. Kellhus and Cnauir traveling together in TDTCB is one of the biggest, ultra mind-fucks I've read in a book. I kept expecting Kellhus to turn good, to start feeling emotions ala Data from Star Trek...and no, not really. Moe not having any power to speak of was another twist that Bakker even prepares us for but I didn't see coming.

I actually like the Aspect Emperor series as well, but I think as with any middle book (and set up book like TJE) it is the final volume that will color my perceptions. Can we infer the conclusions/revelations we get in UC by looking at the prior books? My current expectation is that some of the big revelations in UC will be metaphysical, and Kellhus will accomplish *something*. I just hope that something doesn't feel tacked on.

I actually don't know if the TTT is just mundane - that Inrilatas refers to it by name seems to indicate it might be something more. I go back to Akka and Kellhus talking about apprehending the God, Akka suddenly glimpsing reality through the eyes of a woman far away. That actually might make Fire Watching a developed power that logically comes from Kellhus's ability to grasp more and more of the Absolute.

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Good thoughts. I definitely don't see this series getting blown completely into Absolute-town next book though.

Remember, many people, including Kellhus kids seem to think Kellhus has already grasped the Absolute but we, as readers, think we know better.

My money is on TAE never making it past Dagliash in terms of plot. Obviously, big revelations to come in Ishterebinth plot. I just figure that the Consult are actually invested in Dagliash and the Siege of Dagliash will take over the Great Ordeal plot a la Shimeh in TTT. Isherebinth (as I think Achamian, Mimira, Sorweel, Moenghus, Serwa, and, I guess, Sarl, are all going to join up on the way to) is going offer us a huge, meaty plot-line, and the NE is in for shit hitting fan type stuff as well.

That could easily dominate the UC. I have a sneaking suspicion that TAE as a series is going to have us gnashing our teeth like TWP did and WLW does, waiting for The-Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

Bakker uses simplicity so well to blow minds. There is not enough room for the fantastic journey to the Outside that some readers around here seem to suggest. Also, the No-God doesn't necessarily have to be resurrected in this final volume.

EDIT: Kellhus bids Proyas bow his head to flame and Proyas learns that his Lord is watching the Men of the Ordeal from their fires. Reminded me of Saurumon's Seeing Stone from LOTR.

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As a corollary, I remember some talk after TJE about Akka's bizarre Seswatha dreams being sent by or some product of Kellhus.

Maybe Kellhus is sending Akka dreams in TJE, but remember, Akka already had a strange dream at the end of TTT where Anaxophus repeated the No-God's words instead of striking him down. If Kellhus influenced Akka's dreams at all, I think it was when Kel had his conversation with Seswatha that allowed Akka to give up the Gnosis.

Still, the Nau-Cayuti dreams were kind of out of left field for me, so who knows?

EDIT: Ok, I've read your post properly, and see you also included "some product of Kellhus" instead of just sending Akka dreams. Sorry for the misread, I just don't like the idea of Kellhus sending Akka dreams.

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In TWLW, he straight up outsorceries everyone. Clearly not even the Grandmaster of the Mandate can save his own life or the lives of his Brothers. Kellhus walks in there like nothing, looking like a fucking lightening star, and upends Sranc in their thousands. So far, once again, he is the visual, sorcery, possibly prophetic anti-thesis to the No-God. But he kicks ass with sorcery, instead of at the end of TTT where he scrambles by with wits and sleight of magic.

But he doesn't really save anyone. The Sorcerers could just walk away. There was no mention of Chorae being present. Also I don't think blowing up Sranc in their thousands is necessarily more impressive than building wards that can stand against six Cish Primes.

Speaking of the Cish: They are the main reason why I think not everything is about being deceived. In TTT he says they talk in the voice of god yet they are clearly as deluded as everyone. In the Faynal Psatma chapter it is alleged that Mappa is the only one who doesn't realize that Faynal is only rationalizing his actions.

I actually don't know if the TTT is just mundane - that Inrilatas refers to it by name seems to indicate it might be something more. I go back to Akka and Kellhus talking about apprehending the God, Akka suddenly glimpsing reality through the eyes of a woman far away. That actually might make Fire Watching a developed power that logically comes from Kellhus's ability to grasp more and more of the Absolute.

Fire Watching seems more like a gnostic trick than anything. As a power that comes from some kind of mediation it is far too concrete.

Maybe Kellhus is sending Akka dreams in TJE, but remember, Akka already had a strange dream at the end of TTT where Anaxophus repeated the No-God's words instead of striking him down.

Still, the Nau-Cayuti dreams were kind of out of left field for me, so who knows?

If Nau-Cayuti really is now part of the No-God then I think it is a reasonable assumption that it is the source of his dreams. No real idea why. Does the No-God share the normal Gods' causality violating characteristics? Maybe Mimara will be its mother and that is why it is present in Akka's dreams.

Also no love for my Demon head communication theory? The voice in little Kel's head did more to bring down the NE than everyone else combined.

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But he doesn't really save anyone. The Sorcerers could just walk away. There was no mention of Chorae being present. Also I don't think blowing up Sranc in their thousands is necessarily more impressive than building wards that can stand against six Cish Primes.

generic, read the book. I don't have it on me so I can't dispute the Chorae, which are almost irrelevent. Those Volakati and Mandate left are walking the earth's echo over a horizon to horizon sea of endless Sranc, Bashrag, and Ursranc. They were killing as many as they could and couldn't get clear of them, whereas Kellhus clears a huge path. Sure, they're hovering above them and, perhaps, can suffer the onslaught of mundane weaponry forever. But they were in a jam.

Also, in TTT, five or six Cishaurim Primaries break down Kellhus' attempt at wards and he's forced to use his Cant of Transposing to jump behind them and, I believe, kills them all with Enshoiya, with the exception of one he gets with a Chorae bolt he grabs out of thin air. I don't think he actually kills any of them with sorcery and his defenses are overcome. Only intellect saved him, not his sorcerous ability at that point.

Kellhus is clearly the most powerful human sorcerer we've ever seen.

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generic, read the book. I don't have it on me so I can't dispute the Chorae, which are almost irrelevent. Those Volakati and Mandate left are walking the earth's echo over a horizon to horizon sea of endless Sranc, Bashrag, and Ursranc. They were killing as many as they could and couldn't get clear of them, whereas Kellhus clears a huge path. Sure, they're hovering above them and, perhaps, can suffer the onslaught of mundane weaponry forever. But they were in a jam.
They really weren't in a jam. The ground forces were toast and some sorcerers might've had some difficulty, but really - they were otherwise fine. Heck, if the sorcerers don't start randomly fighting each other because...WTF? they're completely safe AND their forces are likely fine.

Kellhus is the most powerful sorcerer and he does kick some ass, but let's not overstate what he does.

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I really, really hope that this is not the sum of all perspectives. This is just one mechanism by which Earwa's, but more importantly our world's, societal and cultural interactions turns upon. To reduce Bakker's books, or the plot, to this one concept is ridiculous. But hey, to each their own. Maybe that's just where everyone's evolution is at or perhaps that is what hits closest to the readership's egos. This series and these books are an unreal wealth of philosophy and knowledge by a genuine, honest man with a decent mind on his shoulders. And they truly are deeper than deep. Continously, in my research I find that Bakker's stories have been describing things I'm only learning about and realizing.

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about here. While I certainly oversimplified by saying it was the "whole conceit", I think it's hard to argue that it isn't at least one of the central themes and concepts that runs throughout the books. It's implied in name of the first book. It's teased at in the opening Ajencis quote in the first book. It's in the first line of the first book, which is again referenced in TWLW ("One cannot raise walls . . . ). It's one thing Mo and Kel argue about at the end of TTT, when Mo thinks his son's gone mad ("You confuse the madness within you for the darkness without — the same as the worldborn."). I think there was an argument in the last iteration of this thread about how Bakker was being too blunt with his repetition of the theme [EDIT: see, e.e., three posts down]. Do you think it's wrong to look at the characters and the events and wonder: what comes before them?

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Speaking of the Vokalati, I wish we knew more about the differences between the Anagogic schools. We're told the Scarlet Spires are the most powerful of the Anagogic Schools, but how do their spells differ from the others? Like how is a Myunsai's Dragon's Head different than a Vokalati's different than a Saik's different than a Scarlet Spires'? I mean, we know the Scarlet Spires have the Daimos, and that's something probably unique to their school, but do the other schools have anything similarly unique?

I really want to see the Scarlet Spires unleash the Daimos though. It should be interesting, to see what 20+ years under the tutelage of Kellhus the Daimos has come to, and whether it has surpassed the Gnosis.

Also in the TTT appendix, the Ring of Nibel are listed as one of the major schools. Where they at?

Also, anyone else bothered by the fact that Nau-Cayuti's wife thinks how Aulisi will wail and be jealous when she finds out Nau-Cayuti was with her (his wife) when he died? But I was under the impression that Aulisi was never found in Golgotterath, but Nau-Cayuti's wife definitely thinks of Aulisi as being alive.

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Great book, loved it, although I wish we would see more of the Consult, especially the old ass human wizards like Sheonanra that we have never seen or heard from.

It's endlessly fascinating considering Kellhus and the Great Ordeal . What are they really trying to do? Will they succeed? Is Kellhus ultimately a force for "good" no matter the cost? What's up with the Gods and the Outside? the Inchoroi's mission , and what are Kellhus' plans for them etc. All those questions are fascinating. I hope we actually get SOMEWHAT of a satisfying answer to these questions. But knowing Bakker, he will dodge them or make it so damn confusing you have no idea what it means. (Ginyarsis and the Seal of Hell anyone?)

The one downside of the book is Bakker continues to absolutely HAMMER us with the "you are ignorant of your true self and motivations/the causes of your actions are not what you think they are, etc etc". We get it Scott, we do. Every single fucking character repeats these thoughts in almost every chapter. And this has gone on for five books now. I don't know if I can endure anymore of this.

I eagerly await the Unholy Consult.

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Man, there are so many little details that I miss in these books. I did not remember that Kellhus had tried wards when fighting the Cish. I thought he just showed up and transported one-by-one to decapitate them all.

Not quite. Kellhus killed one of the five Cish he faced with magic, then he killed two with his sword by transporting behind them. The fourth he killed with a chorae crossbow bolt that he caught out of the air and threw at the Cish. The last he killed with magic. I don't think this points to Kellhus' eventual skill with magic. I doubt he'd done much experimenting with wards so it's likely he just used the ones Akka taught him. Afterwards, he had much more time to experiment so he's probably figured out some interesting meta-gnostic cants by TAE.

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I really want to see the Scarlet Spires unleash the Daimos though. It should be interesting, to see what 20+ years under the tutelage of Kellhus the Daimos has come to, and whether it has surpassed the Gnosis.

I don't understand this. The Daimos is used to call forth Ciphrang, no? How does that get improved on? Seems like it's basically as good as it will ever get. It works. It calls forth Ciphrang.

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I don't understand this. The Daimos is used to call forth Ciphrang, no? How does that get improved on? Seems like it's basically as good as it will ever get. It works. It calls forth Ciphrang.

Bigger, better and more badass Ciphrang? :devil: Maybe one that can bring Hell with it like the Wight in the Mountain.

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I don't understand this. The Daimos is used to call forth Ciphrang, no? How does that get improved on? Seems like it's basically as good as it will ever get. It works. It calls forth Ciphrang.

We're told either in WP or TTT that Ciphrang have different power levels and different levels of obedience, in a conversation between Eli and Iyokus, I think. A better Daimos means being able to bind stronger willed Ciphrang, maybe even one of the Hundred.

Thinking about it, the Daimos has clearly progressed since Seswatha's time, now that I think about it. Achamian thinks how Seswatha didn't approve of Daimotic sorcery because he didn't think the Ciphrang could be trusted/were too capricious. Seems to imply at the time the enslavement spells were weaker. In TTT, the strongest demon Iyokus summons, willful as he is, is unable to break Iyokus' enslavement, and suffers for trying.

Like in Seswatha's time, the Daimos was akin to a vanilla WoW warlock summoning an Infernal or a Doomguard, and going like "Hey, wanna help me out here?", and it proceeding to murdering him and all the low level scrubs standing around Orgrimmar.

By the TTT, the Daimos is basically a modern-WoW warlock summoning an Infernal or Doomguard.

Also, I think everyone should name themselves after dragons.

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I think the Daimos is a lot like the demon summoning in David Eddings the Belgariad series. You have to be able to draw the right summoning circles and stuff combined with the proper words and the willpower to control something as powerful as a Ciphrang to your will.

I don't even think that you need to be one of the Few to use the Daimos. Nowhere is it said that that is a requirement. I think only those that are already damned would resort to it, so regular people would never even consider it.

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You know, Sarl's line in the TJE about "something watches through [the Captain]", the Captain's line about how he'd remember Hell, makes me wonder if the Captain really is possessed. I mean, I still think it's just a metaphor for how incredibly damned he was that Mimara saw him as a Ciphrang, but maybe his damnation is so absolute that he's nearly become like Wutteat, Hell has literally flooded into his body.

Edit: I believe I have found a Dunyain (in TJE) -

Yagthruta, the Momian Patriarch, the first Thunyeri to reach that rank.

I began thinking again, for 20 years Kellhus has planned. Think on it, it's exactly what Kellhus and Cnaiur wonder in the first trilogy, how much power can a Dunyain amass in that time period? Whereas, Moenghus found himself crippled, Kellhus hasn't. Everything he has done in those 20 years have exactly according to his plans. Every person executed, every person spared, everything, he did for a reason.

I think I agree the third trilogy will be named the Solitary God or something similar. I think Kellhus realized at some point that Inrithism was a weakness, so long as the Gods remained powerful - and blind to the No-God - the Consult has the advantage. Kellhus needs the God to rule men's hearts, not the Gods. Inrithism is inherently weak in this regard. But Fanimry isn't. Fanimry, by weakening the Hundred, and putting all the power in the God, is the perfect weapon to fight the No-God.

I therefore propose, that Kellhus' breeding program with Esmi was not to produce children like Serwa, Kayutas, and Thelli, but to produce ones like Inrilatus and Kelmomas. Dunyain that can feel passion. Kellhus' ultimate goal was to produce a child that can become Cishaurim. With the emotions of a human, and the guile of a Dunyain, said child could convert the entire Three Seas to Fanimry.

Kellhus planned on Fanayal's rebellion. Kellhus spared Meppa because he needs a Cishaurim to train Kelmomas. Kellhus intends on the Three Seas becoming Fanim before the Second Apocalypse.

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I think I agree the third trilogy will be named the Solitary God or something similar. I think Kellhus realized at some point that Inrithism was a weakness, so long as the Gods remained powerful - and blind to the No-God - the Consult has the advantage. Kellhus needs the God to rule men's hearts, not the Gods. Inrithism is inherently weak in this regard. But Fanimry isn't. Fanimry, by weakening the Hundred, and putting all the power in the God, is the perfect weapon to fight the No-God.

I therefore propose, that Kellhus' breeding program with Esmi was not to produce children like Serwa, Kayutas, and Thelli, but to produce ones like Inrilatus and Kelmomas. Dunyain that can feel passion. Kellhus' ultimate goal was to produce a child that can become Cishaurim. With the emotions of a human, and the guile of a Dunyain, said child could convert the entire Three Seas to Fanimry.

I agree with a lot of this, but the only indication that gods actually need human souls is Mappa's declaration that they will let Yatwer starve in her pit. On the other hand I don't think we have seen direct divine intervention in the absence of a believer.

Where I disagree is with the your proposed goal of converting the Three Seas to Fanimry. The Fanim are mostly done and only with Zeüm's help are they more than desert bandits. They may get to conquer the halve of the NE they previously controlled but I think that is as far as they go. Human emotions are no help in converting others. But I do think Kel needs someone who can talk in the God's voice.

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