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The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)


Spring Bass

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Interesting pick up on that one. These what happened before summaries are interestingly biased (remember the Kellhus is mad stuff?) The text seemed to clearly indicated that Kellhus at the very least nudged Mimara to do go out.

Additionally I wonder whether Kellhus knows anything at all about just how crazy little Kell is. I figured that the whole point in TJE of him teleporting all the way back only to have Kel to murder the mother superior was pretty much to show us that Kell hasnt factored in the madness of little Kell in his plans.

As for Mimara it is also entirely possible that Kellhus has no idea she has the judging idea either but the Kosoter protection would indicate otherwise I guess

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Kelmomas explicitly stated in one of his internal POVs that he drove Mimara away. Sorry, can't remember whereabouts that is though.

As to whether Kellhus knows about the judging eye... I think it's extremely doubtful that he has any idea. Mimara only met him a few times and it never opens while Mimara is in his presence. She really understands nothing about what it is until Akka tells her. So what is there for Kellhus to pick up on?

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Maybe he influenced Esmi so that she allowed Mimara to go.

Little Kell is nothing. He has a morbid attachment to his mother and wants to monopolize her attention. Everything he does goes towards that goal. There is nothing deeper about him and he can only see the short term consequences of his actions, because he can't go into the probability trance.

Maithanet would have unraveled his plans, and the WLW, whom he unwittingly unleashed by killing the priestess, will end them when he kills Esmi. Kell will cry to death when that happens.

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To those of you who submitted questions in the other thread, just wanted you to know that I included a number of them in our interview with Scott. I doubt he'll answer them, but I leave it at his discretion... :)

Cheers,

Patrick

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Yep, the questions have been emailed to him. Last we spoke, Scott told me that he had spent the last three weeks immersed into TUC, so it might take a while before we hear back from him. Or not...

We'll have to wait and see. :)

Patrick

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Did everyone else catch this in TJE?? I thought it was just a combination of Mimara wanted to get the fuck out and whatever extent Kellhus was paving the way (i.e., Akka's line "He sent you.").

Mimara has a flashback in TJE where Kelmomas tells her that everytime Esmenet sees her, she hates herself more than she loves Mimara. I think that's the line that prompted her to leave.

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Timeline thoughts:

By the end of WLW Achamian and Mimara are at Ishual, while Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel are somewhere between Dagmersor and Ishterebinth.

If you draw a straight line from Dagmersor to Ishterebinth it doesn't quite run over Ishual, but it's not that far off either. And Serwa seems interested in little side trips to historic sites. So it's plausible Serwa would see Ishual from a high peak and want to visit.

Then I began thinking about the chronology of the book. Serwa &c are past Dagmersor in the book before Akka even gets to Sauglish. Then Akka and Mimara have to walk all the way to Ishual. Even fueled by qirri, that has to be slower than travel by Metagnostic Cant. So unless his timeline is well ahead of those in the Great Ordeal/Sorweel sections, Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel likely passed near Ishual well before Akka got there.

Could Serwa have been the one who destroyed Ishual, then? They decide to check out the mysterious citadel, Dunyain attack them, and Serwa brings the whole thing down on the Dunyain's heads.

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Timeline thoughts:By the end of WLW Achamian and Mimara are at Ishual, while Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel are somewhere between Dagmersor and Ishterebinth.If you draw a straight line from Dagmersor to Ishterebinth it doesn't quite run over Ishual, but it's not that far off either. And Serwa seems interested in little side trips to historic sites. So it's plausible Serwa would see Ishual from a high peak and want to visit.Then I began thinking about the chronology of the book. Serwa &c are past Dagmersor in the book before Akka even gets to Sauglish. Then Akka and Mimara have to walk all the way to Ishual. Even fueled by qirri, that has to be slower than travel by Metagnostic Cant. So unless his timeline is well ahead of those in the Great Ordeal/Sorweel sections, Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel likely passed near Ishual well before Akka got there. Could Serwa have been the one who destroyed Ishual, then? They decide to check out the mysterious citadel, Dunyain attack them, and Serwa brings the whole thing down on the Dunyain's heads.

Nope.

On another note, the Dunyain interrogation, fucking epic, but did the greatest intellect in the world save kell really die so lamely or was there subtext there I missed?

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Timeline thoughts:

By the end of WLW Achamian and Mimara are at Ishual, while Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel are somewhere between Dagmersor and Ishterebinth.

If you draw a straight line from Dagmersor to Ishterebinth it doesn't quite run over Ishual, but it's not that far off either. And Serwa seems interested in little side trips to historic sites. So it's plausible Serwa would see Ishual from a high peak and want to visit.

Then I began thinking about the chronology of the book. Serwa &c are past Dagmersor in the book before Akka even gets to Sauglish. Then Akka and Mimara have to walk all the way to Ishual. Even fueled by qirri, that has to be slower than travel by Metagnostic Cant. So unless his timeline is well ahead of those in the Great Ordeal/Sorweel sections, Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel likely passed near Ishual well before Akka got there.

Could Serwa have been the one who destroyed Ishual, then? They decide to check out the mysterious citadel, Dunyain attack them, and Serwa brings the whole thing down on the Dunyain's heads.

hmm, that's very possible, and would be sadly hilarious.
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Timeline thoughts:

By the end of WLW Achamian and Mimara are at Ishual, while Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel are somewhere between Dagmersor and Ishterebinth.

If you draw a straight line from Dagmersor to Ishterebinth it doesn't quite run over Ishual, but it's not that far off either. And Serwa seems interested in little side trips to historic sites. So it's plausible Serwa would see Ishual from a high peak and want to visit.

Then I began thinking about the chronology of the book. Serwa &c are past Dagmersor in the book before Akka even gets to Sauglish. Then Akka and Mimara have to walk all the way to Ishual. Even fueled by qirri, that has to be slower than travel by Metagnostic Cant. So unless his timeline is well ahead of those in the Great Ordeal/Sorweel sections, Serwa, Moenghus, and Sorweel likely passed near Ishual well before Akka got there.

Could Serwa have been the one who destroyed Ishual, then? They decide to check out the mysterious citadel, Dunyain attack them, and Serwa brings the whole thing down on the Dunyain's heads.

That would be hilarious. Over two thousand years of obsessive eugenics and lifelong training, ruthlessly culling each generation to improve themselves . . . all to be wiped out by a sixteen year old girl with magic powers.

On the other hand, Dunyain aren't sranc. Once they see Serwa clearly outmatches them, they're not going to charge en mass wildly into her sorcerous fires. Most would flee.

But then could Serwa have been given orders to kill the Dunyain? Nah . . . Kellhus would have done that himself.

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Just finished a re-read of TTT. Basically, the only thing separating Kell from Moe, the Consult, the Inchoroi and the other Dunyain is the No-God speaking to him. Not sure how that fits into him becoming the Solitary God, but I don't think it bodes well for the people of Earwa. He's not the only one who sees the haloes about his hands though, so it must be objectively real.

It would be nice if Bakker had given us a little bit more of a clue what was going on with the No-God speaking to Kellhus.

Also, though I'm torn about it, it really seems to me like Cnaiur is not dead at the end. Maybe Cnaiur led the assault on Ishual. He hates the Dunyain, and knows more about them than the Consult. Though I'd still put my money on Kellhus. As per the end of TTT he thinks the Dunyain would side with the Consult and the Inchoroi.

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I wish I had all my Bakker books on me. In that same conversation in TTT, first Kellhus tells Moenghus that the God of Gods speaks to him, then admits that the No-God speaks to him as well, only after being asked though.

It's like the conversation between Maithanet and Inrilatas. We explicitly know from Kellhus' POV that he is saying some things within that conversation to throw his Father of his mental track, to trick Moenghus somehow. We can't gauge what is actually true with any good accuracy of the Dunyain on Dunyain interaction.

We also know that Kellhus tells Aurang that the No-God talks to him. However, in both the conversations with Aurang or Moenghus, Kellhus might simply have more to gain than we know by implying that he speaks with the God of God's voice and the No-God's. Maybe Anasurimbor Kellhus has no such prophetic insight but has everyone, including the Hundred, thinking he does?

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I wish I had all my Bakker books on me. In that same conversation in TTT, first Kellhus tells Moenghus that the God of Gods speaks to him, then admits that the No-God speaks to him as well, only after being asked though.

It's like the conversation between Maithanet and Inrilatas. We explicitly know from Kellhus' POV that he is saying some things within that conversation to throw his Father of his mental track, to trick Moenghus somehow. We can't gauge what is actually true with any good accuracy of the Dunyain on Dunyain interaction.

We also know that Kellhus tells Aurang that the No-God talks to him. However, in both the conversations with Aurang or Moenghus, Kellhus might simply have more to gain than we know by implying that he speaks with the God of God's voice and the No-God's. Maybe Anasurimbor Kellhus has no such prophetic insight but has everyone, including the Hundred, thinking he does?

WHen Kellhus is circumfixed, he sees a figure that I thought was supposed to be the No God?

I wonder how real the Hundred are. Perhaps some of them are fictional, and others are new names given to ancient powers? I'd love some history on the gods. It sort of makes sense that every religion has a Mother Goddess, one that the different regions hold as their (or their aspect) of Yatwer.

If what makes a soul its apprehension of paradox, what makes a god?

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We also know that Kellhus tells Aurang that the No-God talks to him. However, in both the conversations with Aurang or Moenghus, Kellhus might simply have more to gain than we know by implying that he speaks with the God of God's voice and the No-God's. Maybe Anasurimbor Kellhus has no such prophetic insight but has everyone, including the Hundred, thinking he does?

We do have a scene while Kellhus is tied to the Circumfix where he sees a figure and a tree, and hears, as if from a million mouths, the No-God's WHAT DO YOU SEE? It's not unreasonable to think of that as the No-God trying to communicate with him, thought that's not the only interpretation of that vision.

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That's an amazing final question, sciborg.

As for the Hundred, they are all versions of the Kuinniat Tradition of the Ancient North, whether they exist or not, which in turn were interpretations of the Tusk.

Since about 4100 years ago, the decendents of the Five Tribes have worshiped the Tusk, when allegedly, the Gods last walked Eanna. There have been only three major religious revolutions since then all of them either an amendment or anti-thesis to the Tusk. Inri Sejenus redefined the Tusk in the Tractate, Fane refuted the Tusk in the... Kip'fani or something, it's in the TTT glossary and mentioned in the books, and Kellhus rewrote the religious order with his interpretations.

EDIT: His TWP vision might simply have been madness.

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His TWP vision might simply have been madness.

That's certainly Mo's interpretation. Quite possible.

It reminds me of Lewis' Trilema about Jesus: he was either "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord" - that is, one claiming divinity is either right, knowingly false, or unknowingly false (believing their divinity to be true when it isn't).

That scene from TWP is one reason why I think we can lean against concluding "liar" is the correct answer. There is also the scene from TTT when he has left the Holy War and is on his way to Kyudea:

"I know you can hear me," he said to the world, dark and sacred. "I know that you listen."

A sourceless wind pulled the grasses into streamers, drawing them to the southwest. Against the constellations, dead branches clacked and creaked without rhythm.

"What was I to do?" he replied. "They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard ... they trust to you."

The wind subsided, leaving an unearthly silence in its wake. He heard the pasty hiss of maggots squirming through the gut of a dead crow some five paces to his right. He heard the chatter of termites seething beneath the bark of the surrounding oaks.

He tasted the sea on the air.

"What was I to do? Tell them the truth?"

He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previously, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown ...

"No," he said. "I cannot."

Who could he be talking to - or rather, who could he think he is talking to, but something divine (be it God, Gods, or No-God). I guess my point is, I don't think he is lying - he either is talking to something, or he at least thinks he is. I think when he tells Mo about communing with the No-God, he means it.

Of course, one could read that scene and get the opposite result: he's clearly a liar. But, who is he making his confession to?

(I had a crackpot theory some time back that Mo was sending Kel these images and such, like how he sent his dreams to Isual in the prologue of TDTCB, but that's a little out there.)

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I once thought, when Kellhus was meditating in a Fanim estate, about the fact that assumptively a certain caliber of Dunyain could see through all the cause and effect back until the Big Bang, or in Earwa's case, the God of Gods? Then Kellhus might certainly see the God's words everywhere, communicating to him from maggots squirming, the chatter of termites, the two twigs. You know, like the White-Luck Warrior being exactly where he needs to be but in this case, the World communicating to Kellhus because he can see what came before all the way back.

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I once thought, when Kellhus was meditating in a Fanim estate, about the fact that assumptively a certain caliber of Dunyain could see through all the cause and effect back until the Big Bang, or in Earwa's case, the God of Gods? Then Kellhus might certainly see the God's words everywhere, communicating to him from maggots squirming, the chatter of termites, the two twigs. You know, like the White-Luck Warrior being exactly where he needs to be but in this case, the World communicating to Kellhus because he can see what came before all the way back.

This makes me wonder if Earwa is still susceptible to the manipulation of a powerful will in the way the Outside is. As Anjecis tells us via TJE, as one goes further into the Outside things become more malleable. Perhaps that is why Kellhus went Outside - to see if he could create his own mansion there?

In TTT we know that souls are where the outside leaks through, and that Kellhus tells Akka that the God is grasped in fragments by sorcerers and Cishaurim. The former see in angles, and the later recollect through intuition. This is interesting, because sorcery functions as an intermediary means of expressing meaning. I believe Bakker says the Gnosis is stronger because its meanings are more clear - you speak via mathematical logic and so your God-self more easily/directly manipulates reality.

I still wonder what a Cishaurim sorcerer could do - especially since Bakker makes it point to tell us a blind sorcerer (Iyokus) can still see the words necessary for magic.

Bakker has shown us that gods, like mortals, are slaves to their hungers. Though what this hunger is, and if Kellhus is simply denying them soul-food is something I can't recall Bakker saying outright. And why are they so against Kellhus when they seemed to tolerate if not accept Inri Sejenus?

Are gods what they are because their wills require no intermediary to manipulate reality? Yet even they are broken fragments of the God, which in TTT Kellhus tells us includes the people of Earwa. If the God includes the natural world as well, and Kellhus has the metasorcery to recollect multiple angles...perhaps he can use the No-God (and maybe also the topos at Golgotterath) to rewrite reality and disenchant the world.

I still don't think he can become a god.

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Wasn't it Eleazaras who lost his eyes? Leaving the question of whether he could really continue to work sorcery after having lost his prime method of apprehending the onta very much open.

Within WLW;

Yatwer is refered to as the oldest of the hundred, this makes sense within my theoretical model of metaphysical structuralization between Earwa and the outside.

Adding to that, Earwa is revealed as the source of objective metaphysical reality throughout other worlds - this provokes interesting thoughts.

Now, as to who Kellhus is communing with in the above quote (taking my previous suppositions into account), I would suggest Onkis; communicating as the expression of Man's relationship with nature.

eta. assuming Ajokli is aware of the threat posed by the consult as indicated in his assasin/preist's convo. with wlw, what is his game? If Kellhus was really only about opposing the consult, would Ajokli aid or collude with him? Perhaps this is why Kellhus hears 'answers' in dead things.

What part (if any) do you guys think Ajokli is playing?

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A couple of thoughts:

If as previously speculated, it is possible to become the dominant consciousness/soul within the 144,000 contained by the no god (assuming it is a conglomerate of 144,000 souls), perhaps Kellhus' plan is to ensure he is the last soul through the gold room and thereby control the no-god.

Separately, I have this feeling Mek is going to find Akka & Mimara and bring them to Ishterebinth. I think there's going to be some sort of nonman-gasp-reveal scene at some point where the nonmen recognize Nil'Giccas' hauberk on Akka. No clue what will happen next...

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