The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[R_Thunder]

Just finished yesterday, tried to read most of the pages, but ended up skimming a good bit of the last so pardon me if I repeat something already answered.

Few thoughts

The Dunyain - I dont think they are destroyed. I mean all this build up and then we never figure out what is going on with them. Would almost rank up there with GRRM never telling us who Jon's parents are. They have been hiding for 2,000 years, I doubt they just up and vanished.

Along with that though, the point of the Dunyain philosophy is to aquire the Logos. I forget who said it in the book, but this is to "be like a god". I'm quoting that wrong, but thats how I took it. This is what Kellhus is doing IMO. He is going to become a God. Someone said it best

- The Prince of Nothing

- The Aspect Emperor

- The Kellhus God...

It seems Mimara can undamn someone, she tried to do that to the Captain, or one of the Skin Eaters.

Akka - I really just enjoy his character.

I also find it interesting that the ark is a "ship" that crash landed and the beings inside them use things called "tekne" and "bios".

[lokisnow]

- The Prince of Nothing

- The Aspect Emperor

- The God Kellhus

or, The God of All would be pretty good, but I like switching it around to The God Kellhus

---

It's worth pointing out that if Kellhus can hear the maggots eating the flesh of a nearby animal etc etc that he hears when he's communing with the Twig of DESTINY in TTT then he ought to have been able to hear Kelmomas approach his and Esme's room. I wonder if Kellhus' return was not to stabilize Yatwerian cult, but to condition Kelmomas to take care of the priestess and start off the downfall of the Kelmomian empire?

---

unrelated crackpottery:

Should we connect the "monstrous mother of birth" with the "death of birth" No God?

Was Yatwer a first attempt at the Inchoroi theological strategy, attempting to take agency away from the Nonmen by giving the humans a God?

Is Yatwer's rise be connected to the demise of the cunoroi females, or does Yatwer predate their death?

Wish I had thought of that last question before Pat sent off his list of questions, I had no good questions to include from my pre WLW reading.

[Curethan]

Nope. It was Iyokus who is now referred to as the blind necromancer. It was a little revenge for Xinemus.

Ah yes. Not enough sleep + work X masses of uni assignments and revision = wak with poo brain.

[Curethan]

Well, he's a necromancer now. I doubt that involves the holy water but it might involve the 3rd sight. I'm thinking it is an extension of the daimos, seeing as how dead souls are completely 'outside' just like Ciphrang.

UHC better be a magic-fest. I wanna see Iyokus, Shae, Akka and Kellhus in a 4-way sorcery showdown, complete with mexican standoff featuring 5 chapters of intense introspection, raghr.

[jurble]

If Iyokus actually is a necromancer, and uses the Daimos to summon an undead army, it would be awesome.

[Ayx]

Bakker had envisioned the whole trilogy in the 1980'th according to Wikipedia.

"What had happen before, will happen again" thing is "already done" cliche after Battlestar Galactica did it. But it would not seem so in 1980's.

The blurb for "The darkness that comes before" says

.It's a world scarred by an apocalyptic past, evoking a time both two thousand years past and two thousand years into the future, as untold thousands gather for a crusade.

The "two thousand years into the future" part seems significant. So far we seen the two thousand years into the past, as well as present time.

What if the "two thousand years into the future" part from the blurb is true? That means the "Unholy consult" book will conclude the the 2nd apocalypse storyline, and the 3rd trilogy will deal with the 3rd apocalypse.

[delete this account pls]

I finished this a few days ago. On the one hand, I enjoyed a lot of this book, as much as I've enjoyed any Bakker has written. On the other ... maybe it's the influence of the board and maybe not, but for the first time the sheer ammount of degradation and mysogynism that gets directed at women in Earwa really started to bug me. Could we have just one female character who doesn't get threatened with rape? One female character who doesn't, at some point, get reduced to the status of a vagina with legs? How about a male character who isn't a violent perverted asshole/potential rapist? The world of these books is such a goddamn grim, disgusting, disturbing place that I found myself almost rooting for the Consult. Bring on the fucking Apocalypse, I found myself thinking on more than one occassion. Bakker could still pull this out of the fire, if Mimara turns out to be the Saviour it's hinting that she might be, and I know these things I'm complaining about are hardly a new element to the series, but it's the first time my own disgust really warred with my actual enjoyment of the story.

That being said ... I can't deny there was a hell of a lot to like in this book, and from a story perspective, it was definitely an improvement on the slightly dissapointing The Judging Eye. I think Sorweel improved a lot as a character (masturbating to incest aside), and I'm actually really looking forward to seeing where his story goes, because I love the ambiguoussness of it all. Shit really kicked off in Esmenet's sections, and her little brothel-fugitive holiday aside, I was kind of impressed with how quickly she seized control of the situation when Maithanet was murdered right in front of her. I also liked that at least half the population were actually still supporting her, even after the coup, it was nice to see that she isn't universally despised as the 'Whore-Empress'. We learned a ton of cool new stuff (Akka is dreaming Nau-Cayuti OMGWTF?? Ishterebinth is rolling with the Consult! Soma was the skin-spy! The Captain was working for Kellhus all along! Cleric was whatshisfacewhyarethesenamessohardtospell!) And Akka continues his streak as the most unlikely ass-kicker of all time. The final big showdown with the dragon in Sauglish was slightly dodgy, but didn't put me off as much as it did for some of you. I really liked the new character, the sorceror/diplomat from Zeum whose name I am not even going to attempt to spell, and hope we see more of him. Nice to see a gay POV character finally too.(And yeah, I know Akka is maybe bi, or at least expiremented a little, but it's hardly ever mentioned) Also, I think Kellhus is a far more effective, even intriguing character when we aren't privy to his POV.

A few things to throw out there that I havent seen mentioned too much.

- The Consult originally arose when an entire School, the Maengnecca, defected to the Inchoroi, along with Mekeritig. Two random thoughts on this;

1) It's easy to think of the Consult as a small organisation, since we only ever see Mek, Aurang and Aurax in the field, but it's entirely possible that there's still hundreds, if not thousands of them, depending on how large Schools were in the Ancient North. I think it's probable that Schools back then were larger than they are in the present day. A large School of the current Three Seas, for instance, has between 100-150 sorcerors of rank, twice as many initiates, and any number of menials, servants, guards and soldiers. But let's just count those that bear the Mark. The Consult could be boasting at least a couple of hundred Gnostic sorcerors, and probably even more than that. And that's not even counting the Nonmen Quya.

2) The Maengecca originally deserted because they had discovered a way to reverse the damnation that is the fate of all sorcerors (according the the Mega Appendix in Thousandfold Thought) Is there a risk one of the Three Seas Schools, or individual sorcerors, might do the same? Surely at least some of them have doubts about Kellhus' power to reverse their damnation. I can't help but notice Iyokus is still alive and kicking, a man who was expressly told by the Ciphrang he summoned, that he was damned. Add to that his mutilation and blinding at the order of the same Aspect Emperor he serves, and it seems to me that Iyokus is primed for betrayal.

- The Mandate are now ruled by a Grandmaster the same as any other School, and not the elected Quorum. No attention is drawn to this change whatsoever, but I do wonder if it isn't important. Moreso than just a sign of the way Kellhus has changed things, I mean. What makes this Saraccees fellow so important that two thousand years of tradition would be thrown out? The Mandate must have had some resistance to this idea.

- With all this talk about how history is repeating, I'm surprised noone else has explicitly pointed out the Moenghus/Serwa - Cnauir/Serwe thing. Maybe it was so obvious it doesn't need to be, and I'm just an idiot. Also, I thought Moenghus was a great character and can't wait to learn more about him. After Inrilatas, he's easily the most interesting of Kellhus' children.

- The Soma skin-spy outed itself to protect Mimara on it's own judgement. It was under no orders to protect Mimara at this point, because it's handlers had no idea that Mimara and Akka had even joined the Skin-Eaters at this point. We know the Consult considers Mimara important, but I think it's very telling that a skin-spy explicitly disobeyed orders and blew it's cover on it's own iniative like that, all for Mimara's sake.

- I miss Cnauir. I feel like Kosoter was an attempt to fill that role of 'crazed, extremely dangerous uber-warrior' and while he did OK with it, he fell short by a head (Heyooo! Ba-dum-dum!)

- What happened to the Scylvendi who rode with the Scions? Did it ever explicitly state that he was killed? Like Iyokus and the Mandate change of leadership, I feel like this was something Bakker tried to sneak in under the radar, reminding us that, hey, the No-God worshipping Scylvendi are still around, without drawing too much attention to it.

- The Narindar. I was a little annoyed by their introduction. Some super-effective secret sect of assassins have been around, just hangin' in the background this whole time, and nobody ever mentioned them before?

- The Hundred Gods are blind to the No-God ... but surely they are aware of his existence all the same? Because they can hardly ignore how the souls of millions of their worshippers suddenly started showing up in the Outside a couple of thousand years ago...

[Piper]

Could we have just one female character who doesn't get threatened with rape? One female character who doesn't, at some point, get reduced to the status of a vagina with legs?

Theliopa comes to mind, though she's not a particularly major character.

[apples]

I finished this a few days ago. On the one hand, I enjoyed a lot of this book, as much as I've enjoyed any Bakker has written. On the other ... maybe it's the influence of the board and maybe not, but for the first time the sheer ammount of degradation and mysogynism that gets directed at women in Earwa really started to bug me. Could we have just one female character who doesn't get threatened with rape? One female character who doesn't, at some point, get reduced to the status of a vagina with legs? How about a male character who isn't a violent perverted asshole/potential rapist? The world of these books is such a goddamn grim, disgusting, disturbing place that I found myself almost rooting for the Consult. Bring on the fucking Apocalypse, I found myself thinking on more than one occassion. Bakker could still pull this out of the fire, if Mimara turns out to be the Saviour it's hinting that she might be, and I know these things I'm complaining about are hardly a new element to the series, but it's the first time my own disgust really warred with my actual enjoyment of the story.

So what your basically saying is, the first time you read the the book it seemed kosher, than after learning you're suppose to be offended by it you're suddenly disgusted wtih it? Cool story bro.

[delete this account pls]

Theliopa comes to mind, though she's not a particularly major character.

I was thinking more of the POV characters, but you're right, Theliopa's gender isn't much of an issue at all so far.

So what your basically saying is, the first time you read the the book it seemed kosher, than after learning you're suppose to be offended by it you're suddenly disgusted wtih it? Cool story bro.

Firstly, cool story bro? Seriously? That's what you went with? A meme that was old hat within days? What next, you going to tell us you have toger blood, or that you're Winning!

Secondly, I was admitting that the rather convincing arguments made by smart people might have changed the way I see things, yeah, because it's certainly a possibility. I've never been one of the ardent Bakker defenders, but I was an admitted fan in the past and some folks might remember that and call me out on it, so I thought it was only fair that I acknowledge the possibility up front. It's also possible that I just finally exceeded my tolerance for borderline fantastically written torture porn, or that now that I'm far more accustomed to the world, the story and the characters, I've begun to notice other elements.

Thirdly, why does it matter how I came to the opinion? If you don't agree with what I said you could say why. Unless you were just trying to make your bones and get yourself noticed, in which case, nice one tiger! Don't stop trying!

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

It seems like the vast majority of the really bad shit(painful death, torture, even rape) happens to men. That said, I'm starting to get the feeling that Bakker has a frank miller esque obsession with whores.

[apples]

Firstly, I used an old internet meme. How uncool of me.

Secondly, I think some of the arguments against Bakker's depiction of woman have merit but I think alot of them are pretentious and absurd, like you.

Thirdly, I expose your pretense and you retaliate by manufacturing one for me. If I really wanted to make a name for myself I wouldn't do it by attacking another poster.

[Sci-2]

Could we have just one female character who doesn't get threatened with rape? One female character who doesn't, at some point, get reduced to the status of a vagina with legs? How about a male character who isn't a violent perverted asshole/potential rapist? The world of these books is such a goddamn grim, disgusting, disturbing place that I found myself almost rooting for the Consult. Bring on the fucking Apocalypse, I found myself thinking on more than one occassion.

I actually think Bakker is trying to be a feminist writer of sorts. In his mind, I believe, he is pointing out that these fantasy cultures we romanticize are full of degradation and misogyny. Rereading SoIaF, there's one point where women are put in stockades, to be raped by any who would care to take part. That is a gruesome image, but I didn't even really notice it the first time through. That this is accepted cruelty shows us how much the privileged can take from their small folk.

Bakker takes it a step further, never allowing us the mystical woman impervious to the lechers. I think he is trying to tell us that rather escape into fantasy, we should be thankful for the modern world. Problem, however, is that there are so few good men - or forget good, men not driven by their lusts. I'm still trying to think of why Fayanal would take a creature of Yatwer into his bed.

That said one problem with depiction of women in this book, IMO, was that Esmi outright collapses and becomes a fretting mother after years of not only serving Kellhus, but serving him by rooting out traitors and having blasphemers whipped and flayed.

I really liked the new character, the sorceror/diplomat from Zeum whose name I am not even going to attempt to spell, and hope we see more of him. Nice to see a gay POV character finally too.(And yeah, I know Akka is maybe bi, or at least expiremented a little, but it's hardly ever mentioned) Also, I think Kellhus is a far more effective, even intriguing character when we aren't privy to his POV.

Wait, gay character?

- The Consult originally arose when an entire School, the Maengnecca, defected to the Inchoroi, along with Mekeritig. Two random thoughts on this;

1) It's easy to think of the Consult as a small organisation, since we only ever see Mek, Aurang and Aurax in the field, but it's entirely possible that there's still hundreds, if not thousands of them, depending on how large Schools were in the Ancient North...The Maengecca originally deserted because they had discovered a way to reverse the damnation that is the fate of all sorcerors (according the the Mega Appendix in Thousandfold Thought) Is there a risk one of the Three Seas Schools, or individual sorcerors, might do the same? Surely at least some of them have doubts about Kellhus' power to reverse their damnation.

I wonder about this, though I don't know how much recruiting the Consult would be able to do. Also, Hell is inside Golgotterath - its a major topos according to Akka's dreams in TTT. To be there is to be constantly reminded of damnation, and I suspect not everyone can handle that.

- The Mandate are now ruled by a Grandmaster the same as any other School, and not the elected Quorum. No attention is drawn to this change whatsoever, but I do wonder if it isn't important. Moreso than just a sign of the way Kellhus has changed things, I mean. What makes this Saraccees fellow so important that two thousand years of tradition would be thrown out? The Mandate must have had some resistance to this idea.

Well Saraccees can perform metagnostic cants, and some people suspect he might be Dunyain.

- The Soma skin-spy outed itself to protect Mimara on it's own judgement. It was under no orders to protect Mimara at this point, because it's handlers had no idea that Mimara and Akka had even joined the Skin-Eaters at this point. We know the Consult considers Mimara important, but I think it's very telling that a skin-spy explicitly disobeyed orders and blew it's cover on it's own iniative like that, all for Mimara's sake.

I think they are allowed to act out of their own volition to an extent, remember the one that Akka almost caught in TDTCB? The synthese was pretty pissed that a skin spy was watching him without direct orders.

- The Narindar. I was a little annoyed by their introduction. Some super-effective secret sect of assassins have been around, just hangin' in the background this whole time, and nobody ever mentioned them before?

Yeah, these guys are around but I don't think this one would have succeeded without the WLW taking his identity. I remember mention of assassins in TJE, but again these guys are servants of the God of Mischief, who is the black sheep of the Hundred - to the point of being condemned in Scripture if I recall the scene between the original and the WLW. Since Kellhus has left the nobility intact, only the temples have major reason to complain.

As in, they wouldn't have been approached by the Temples, who perhaps thought their gods would lead them to victory of Kellhus. The more that doesn't work, the more many likely doubted and perhaps accepted him as something to be endured, if not worshiped.

- The Hundred Gods are blind to the No-God ... but surely they are aware of his existence all the same? Because they can hardly ignore how the souls of millions of their worshippers suddenly started showing up in the Outside a couple of thousand years ago...

Yeah, the device of revelatory layers, as Madness points out, changes how we read the books prior to the one we're on. In WLW, we learn the gods - and presumably the Outside - have a different conception of time. Perhaps they see futures where Kellhus robs them of worshippers, or perhaps creates new means to avoid damnation - soul casks or a mansion in the Outside. The future they miss, because the it somehow distorts the world's relationship to the Outside, is the one where the No-God is revived.

Mind you, I'm still undecided on how I feel about learning more on the gods and Outside after the fact. Still not convinced there are actual gods even, as it seems convenient they always conform to the impressions of their worshippers. Perhaps the cults magic stems from their own belief - a magic of recollection similar to that of the Cish.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Who is this apples person, and why so antagonistic? If you do not wish to contribute anything useful to a thread, you could just calmly exit the thread instead of posting. Just a thought.

Brady - I agree with most of what you say. For me, I never really bought into the whole "Bakker hates women" thing in the first 4 books, especially given Esmi's rise from whore to Empress. However, this book certainly swayed me a bit. I mean, was it really necessary for Esmi to hide in a prostitute's house and reflect on her hooker days for pages on end? Did Serwa really need to bang her stepbrother? I hope Mimara can help bring women back up a bit, cause damn, this book didn't do the gender any favors.

[Kalbear]

Thirdly, I expose your pretense and you retaliate by manufacturing one for me. If I really wanted to make a name for myself I wouldn't do it by attacking another poster.

It's certainly not contributing anything to the conversation.

Apples, I guess you're the kind of Hard Man who never changes their opinion based on new evidence or argument, so this might be a bit alien to you, but there are some people out there who didn't notice certain details in a certain way for various reasons. Perhaps they're inured to it, or perhaps it's not that big a deal to them, or perhaps it doesn't affect them as much. Then they talk with others and they notice that hey, GRRM does actually include a LOT of recipes and stuff about food. That's weird. Wonder why that is. And then as they read, that bugs them a bit more than it used to because they notice it more and more.

Or it's possible that Brady, despite being on the board for something like 15 years, is secretly using this newfound knowledge to score points and make us feminazis Really, Truly Love him for being so amazingly sensitive and caring. Because Brady, being a Hot Australian Sensitive Man, has finally seen the light. It is a great day for all of us.

[apples]

It's not that he changed his mind. It's that his post is retarded and affecting morality which makes me wonder why he changed his mind in the first place.

Edit: mis-interpretted something.

[Kalbear]

It's not that he changed his mind. It's that his post is retarded and affecting morality which makes me wonder why he changed his mind in the first place.

Wait...so noticing sexism and misogyny and women being abused is retarded? That's AWESOME. That's gotta be a great pickup line at a bar.

Also, I don't even understand the 'affecting morality' part. So posters shouldn't mention things like how books affected them or their feelings after a book? Damnit, Brady, you broke the bro code - you admitted feelings. Your review of the book should have been terse, to the point, and had no mention of you crying like you did when Bambi's mom died. How dare you, sir.

How dare you.

[Sci-2]

It's not that he changed his mind. It's that his post is retarded and affecting morality which makes me wonder why he changed his mind in the first place.

Edit: mis-interpretted something.

sorry, not seeing anything in his post that was affecting. and you're gonna hate me too, because WLW was also the first time the treatment of female characters (and cock-led males) really bothered me.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Did Serwa really need to bang her stepbrother?

I never found the Serwa/Sorweel thing sexist. Despite being half-dunyain and one of the most powerful sorcerer's in world, Serwa is a teenage girl. Moenghus is tall, dark and muscular. Sorweel was barely past adolescence, so of course he'd be obsessing over an attractive girl. Given his obsession, Serwa banging Meonghus is pretty much a narrative inevitability.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Just saw apple's edit. My thoughts:

Seriously? Saying "cool story bro" to his statement that more information altered his viewpoint slightly is "exposing his pretense"? Ridiculous.

I vote troll.