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The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)


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I never found the Serwa/Sorweel thing sexist. Despite being half-dunyain and one of the most powerful sorcerer's in world, Serwa is a teenage girl. Moenghus is tall, dark and muscular. Sorweel was barely past adolescence, so of course he'd be obsessing over an attractive girl. Given his obsession, Serwa banging Meonghus is pretty much a narrative inevitability.

It's perfectly understandable, as you say. But it's yet another female character being sexualized. Sorweel defines Serwa as a sexy girl before that, wants her, whatever, but is wary because she's Kellhus' daughter and a powerful sorceress. It seemed to me that after that scene she is wholly sexualized in his mind.

Also, I'm using my iPhone to view the forum, and I cannot keep up. Apologies for being several posts behind :-)

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Wait...so noticing sexism and misogyny and women being abused is retarded? That's AWESOME. That's gotta be a great pickup line at a bar. Also, I don't even understand the 'affecting morality' part. So posters shouldn't mention things like how books affected them or their feelings after a book? Damnit, Brady, you broke the bro code - you admitted feelings. Your review of the book should have been terse, to the point, and had no mention of you crying like you did when Bambi's mom died. How dare you, sir.How dare you.

No, I didn't say noticing sexism is retarded or talking about it is affecting morality but that HIS cock wanking bullshit was in particular.

@wrathofme It was really just a whatever response to a ridiculous statement. And cool story bro really meant "this is lame", not sure what you mean by it pointing anything out.

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No, I didn't say noticing sexism is retarded or talking about it is affecting morality but that HIS cock wanking bullshit was in particular.
Well, thank you sir, for being on the internet to call to our attention when someone talks about their interpretation of a book as cock wanking bullshit. Without you, we may never have been alerted to the truth about said cockwanking bullshit, and indeed we would be wholly blind to the cockwanking bullshit here and, I dare say, elsewhere.

You've done these boards a fine, fine service this day. We and God both thank you.

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It's perfectly understandable, as you say. But it's yet another female character being sexualized. Sorweel defines Serwa as a sexy girl before that, wants her, whatever, but is wary because she's Kellhus' daughter and a powerful sorceress. It seemed to me that after that scene she is wholly sexualized in his mind.

Also, I'm using my iPhone to view the forum, and I cannot keep up. Apologies for being several posts behind :-)

This I didn't have a problem with, save for the end - not sure how I feel about the masturbation scene. I remember being young and doing this - conflating sexual desire with an almost worshipful infatuation. I think given Sorweel's circumstances, his incessant need to be masculine (he is shamed by being Yatwer's chosen, he loves the respect the others give him as a warrior), it is natural he seeks comfort in something certain. It is his lust that is a certainty, but because he needs it to be more, to mean more, he makes Serwa into the answer.

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No, I didn't say noticing sexism is retarded or talking about it is affecting morality but that HIS cock wanking bullshit was in particular.

@wrathofme It was really just a whatever response to a ridiculous statement. And cool story bro really meant "this is lame", not sure what you mean by it pointing anything out.

Yeah, I know what it meant. You had said that you exposed Brady's pretense, but you didn't actually make a point. Not that I expected you to, mind.

Are you an alt of Cantabile? Have you ever bought yaoi for your grandson?

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It seemed to me that after that scene she is wholly sexualized in his mind.

Actually it seems to me that she and Moenghus become pure evil in his mind. I don't think he would still want to have sex with her, unless he has a secret BDSM fetish.

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I feel like we're all waiting here with a turned thumb, ready to signify death or life.

I don't even realize what everyone is so upset about here. We all make ill-worded commentary sometimes. Someone who can't participate in the Slog (of Bakker discussions) will fall to the wayside. Weakness dies.

apples needs to interrupt the flow of discussion more than he has. Otherwise, let's not spend this time chastising him. He's not going to make the Slog anyway.

Also, I understand that Serwa seems to be another character to be taken at face value, as we seem to think Moenghus is, but clearly there's something more going on here. Bakker is using his perceived track record against us. We think he'd have no trouble introducing another base woman but I always thought that a Dunyain woman would utilize this chiefly among their intellectual arsenal. We want Moenghus to be like Cnaiur, when in actuality, it's far for likely that he's deluded by his sister and his Step-Father. Perhaps the lesson from Inrilatas is that more of the Dunyain retain their Dunyainery than less. Things that we've taken for granted from Mimira or Esmenet's perspectives are slipped under our experiential radar. Esmenet blathers on about, "Oh, maybe they're all a bit human like me," but really her children may all be manipulating her like Kelmomas tries to. Maybe Theli is the exception, not Inrilatas and Kelmomas. Inri certainly suggests to Maithanet that all the "stable" children retain as much Dunyainity as Maithanet himself does.

Lol, rant got ahold of me but two more thoughts.

Serwa and Kayutas likely have been privy to all of Kellhus' objective truths. He's from Ishual and is Dunyain. Kellhus also devoted sufficient time to his children that they were being trained, including Mimira - she even outfights the Captain at one point when he realizes she's the Princess-Imperial (I read that part quite, quite differently then most of you, I think.)

Kayutas himself has to be as martially able as his Father. A final thought on that Aurang lays Esme one last time in TTT, possibly while she's pregnant or before she is with Kayutas.

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Lawl. Your droll generalizations are getting old. I was annoyed because someone was trashing another guy's work when I felt like he was affecting morality and so retaliated. End of story.

@wrathofme I made my point in my second response to him.

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She was wholly sexualized in his mind the first time he sees her in her tent wearing a light robe and when she spreads her legs. She's pretty well sexualized almost immediately; she's referred to as beautiful and exotic, then there's the scene where she's naughty with her legs...she's not the best example, though I'll note that at least Serwa isn't all about using her sex appeal or her sex to gain power. Sorweel wants her to be and sees her as such, but I always thought that was Sorweel's PoV and not the actual truth. Serwa is first and foremost a very powerful Mandate sorcerer. She's fucking Moe because it gives her pleasure, not because it's the only way she can have agency. And she is uncautious around Sorweel because she doesn't care, not because she sees that it gives him wood.

It's still a bit offputting that every male sees every female as a slit, but he's remarkably consistent in this regard. And at least in Serwa's case it's clear that that's not remotely all she is...unlike Esme or Mimara.

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It's still a bit offputting that every male sees every female as a slit, but he's remarkably consistent in this regard. And at least in Serwa's case it's clear that that's not remotely all she is...unlike Esme or Mimara.

:agree:

I do think Serwa was playing Sorweel sexually and the discovery of her incest with Moengus was deliberate.

I think actually the relationship between Sorweel and Serwa sort of parallels Esmenet's relationship with Maithanet, who consistently manipulated her by emphasising his more human nature to Kellhus.

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I would also like to restate a theory that I first pose following TJE, namely that Moenghus feigns madness or is able to "engage,"for lack of a better word, his madness, as a mechanism to prevent his siblings from either reading or controlling him. He seems to almost let his guard down around Sorweel, the one who cannot manipulate him.

I'm wondering if Moe and Serwa had been together before, or if this was the first / only time. Did she do it to manipulate him, manipulate Sorweel, or just because?

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I mean, yeah Serwa becomes evil to some extent in Sorweel's mind, but he is still unable to control his sexual feelings for her. So his strongest feeling for her becomes desire and shame, rather than desire tempered by respect and fear.

Well, the way I see it, Sorweel is a sympathetic idiot. He isn't a bad person, but he is riddled with prejudices and insecurities.

Serwa saved his life, and is touched by the heart of Seswatha. Men want to protect, to save - it plays to his infatuation, that she is haunted and needs comfort from an understanding, caring man who can answer her (supposed) feminine weakness. He comes from a culture where both sorcerers and women are seen as weak, but then he is saved by someone who is both. Naturally a part of him has to see her as *more*, even as part of him as to see her as needing him.

I even get the masturbation scene -> the problem I had was that he jerks off while watching them. If he had gone back to the camp, and started to masturbate there, it would have been more realistic. But perhaps he thought Yatwer would keep him unseen even while he was being a peeping-tom (kidding).

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You know, I need to look but I'm pretty sure the time their stuff is gone is the time Sorweel sees them, going to look for their supplies. Just sayin'.

It is, but what is your point? Perhaps Serwa moved the supplies in order to lure Sorweel out to find them (though it seems easier to just do it right next to him in camp if the only goal is to get caught).

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Yeah but it's Bakker. I'm saying there's overt intent as you address but Serwa (and Bakker) is not going to want Sorweel to just see them but jerk-off to them, to manipulate him further. I'm just arguing that its complete intent on Serwa's part, thus, she's manipulating Sorweel and, probably, Moenghus. That she remains as scary and unpredictable as Inrilatas or Kelmomas, perhaps, despite her appearance to us.

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She was wholly sexualized in his mind the first time he sees her in her tent wearing a light robe and when she spreads her legs. She's pretty well sexualized almost immediately; she's referred to as beautiful and exotic, then there's the scene where she's naughty with her legs...she's not the best example, though I'll note that at least Serwa isn't all about using her sex appeal or her sex to gain power. Sorweel wants her to be and sees her as such, but I always thought that was Sorweel's PoV and not the actual truth. Serwa is first and foremost a very powerful Mandate sorcerer. She's fucking Moe because it gives her pleasure, not because it's the only way she can have agency. And she is uncautious around Sorweel because she doesn't care, not because she sees that it gives him wood.

Goddamn, I'm glad someone pointed this out b4 the sexism discussion got out of control. Serwe fucks Moe because she wants to. What could be more feminist? She's one of the most powerful sorcerers in the world, a grandmaster, and the daughter of the Aspect-Emperor.

It's still a bit offputting that every male sees every female as a slit, but he's remarkably consistent in this regard. And at least in Serwa's case it's clear that that's not remotely all she is...unlike Esme or Mimara.

I'm confused why this is off-putting. This is biology - it is one of the immutable laws of our really, real world as well. I think the unflattering portrayal of pre-modern patriarchal societies is one of Bakker's best themes.

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I'm confused why this is off-putting. This is biology - it is one of the immutable laws of our really, real world as well. I think the unflattering portrayal of pre-modern patriarchal societies is one of Bakker's best themes.
No, it's really not. There are plenty of men who do not look at every single woman only on the basis of their sex. There are plenty of men who aren't constantly thinking about sex. It's offputting because it's every single male PoV we ever see, and after a while it gets old hearing about the sexualization of the women in dehumanizing terms over and over again.

There's also a very big difference between unflattering portrayals of society and unflattering portrayals of humans. The two are not linked. GRRM does a very unflattering portrayal of society and the patriarchy but Ned isn't constantly thinking about how hot a piece of ass Cat (or Cersei, or Sansa) is.

Even if it were accurate and 'biological' - which it isn't - it'd still be offputting in the same way that hearing about very accurate, correct descriptions of infected smallpox sores would be.

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No, it's really not. There are plenty of men who do not look at every single woman only on the basis of their sex. There are plenty of men who aren't constantly thinking about sex.

Even if it were accurate and 'biological' - which it isn't -

The science does not agree with you. There are physiological reactions in men every time they are exposed to "available" women. They may not always be at the forefront of people's thoughts, but the machinery is still churning away.

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