The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[Kalbear]

The science does not agree with you. There are physiological reactions in men every time they are exposed to "available" women. They may not always be at the forefront of people's thoughts, but the machinery is still churning away.

Yes, that's true. So?

There's also an arachnid reaction any time a human sees a particularly squicky bug. Does that mean that every time something gross gets seen by a PoV character that we should think OMG KILL IT KILL THE SPIDER KILL IT KILL IT in the text?

The point is that in the story it is ALWAYS at the forefront of people's thoughts. Always. Always we're presented with the PoV's view of the women as hot and how they'd like to fuck 'em. We don't get anything else. Whenever men think about women that's what they turn to. And that...isn't realistic.

Having a physiological reaction to 'available women' does not mean the same thing as thinking about a woman you met who is the queen of the realm or thinking about a woman that isn't actually present. That every character continues thinking this way is offputting. That Bakker does this in basically every single novel he writes means that he believes men only think in these terms and it's always a conscious thought, which again - many men say otherwise, and consciously that's not accurate or reasonable. Unconsciously? Possible. Consciously? Nope.

It's a lot like his sermons on neuropathy and what guides humans. After a while I get tired of it because it's not that interesting. Yes, I know Bakker thinks that men are completely driven by wanting to fuck women and must see all women as something to fuck. Yes, I get that. Can we move on and actually get to the plot instead of random descriptions of the hotness of the women?

[apples]

I didn't mean to attack the motivations of all people who have issues with bakker's books. But he's over-exaggerating every flaw and pretending as if he's suddenly viscerally disguted and morally outraged, to the point where he could barely finish it. :bang: Give me a fuckin brake.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Yes, that's true. So?

There's also an arachnid reaction any time a human sees a particularly squicky bug. Does that mean that every time something gross gets seen by a PoV character that we should think OMG KILL IT KILL THE SPIDER KILL IT KILL IT in the text?

Well, one of them is a foundation of human interaction, love, and violence while the other is...not very important. Kinda like being afraid of heights - not much place for it in a story.

The point is that in the story it is ALWAYS at the forefront of people's thoughts. Always. Always we're presented with the PoV's view of the women as hot and how they'd like to fuck 'em. We don't get anything else. Whenever men think about women that's what they turn to. And that...isn't realistic.

I think its a lot more realistic than it might seem. We are privy to the unfiltered thoughts of characters in a story in a way that we are not in real life - ie it makes sense that these things would be more prevalent than they are in our modern conversations. Also, these sorts of physiologically driven thoughts would probably be even more at the forefront of people's thoughts in a pre-modern patriarchal society than they are in our "enlightened" world.

Having a physiological reaction to 'available women' does not mean the same thing as thinking about a woman you met who is the queen of the realm or thinking about a woman that isn't actually present. That every character continues thinking this way is offputting. That Bakker does this in basically every single novel he writes means that he believes men only think in these terms and it's always a conscious thought, which again - many men say otherwise, and consciously that's not accurate or reasonable. Unconsciously? Possible. Consciously? Nope.

Who cares if some men say otherwise? That's meaningless. Its the physiology that is undeniable. And the physiology drives more conscious thought than people find comfortable.

It's a lot like his sermons on neuropathy and what guides humans. After a while I get tired of it because it's not that interesting. Yes, I know Bakker thinks that men are completely driven by wanting to fuck women and must see all women as something to fuck. Yes, I get that. Can we move on and actually get to the plot instead of random descriptions of the hotness of the women?

Well, interesting is a matter of opinion.

Also, in pre-modern societies physical attractiveness is even more of a factor than it would be in our "enlightened" world where women were only allowed to vote about 100 years ago.

[Sci-2]

No, it's really not. There are plenty of men who do not look at every single woman only on the basis of their sex. There are plenty of men who aren't constantly thinking about sex. It's offputting because it's every single male PoV we ever see, and after a while it gets old hearing about the sexualization of the women in dehumanizing terms over and over again.

There's also a very big difference between unflattering portrayals of society and unflattering portrayals of humans. The two are not linked. GRRM does a very unflattering portrayal of society and the patriarchy but Ned isn't constantly thinking about how hot a piece of ass Cat (or Cersei, or Sansa) is.

Even if it were accurate and 'biological' - which it isn't - it'd still be offputting in the same way that hearing about very accurate, correct descriptions of infected smallpox sores would be.

See, I get Sorweel thinking of her sexually. For me, it is more Fayanal that bothers me. Also, the scalpers willingness to rape Mimara, while likely accurate, seems to run somewhat counter to any sense of humanity they might have. If one had protested and quickly been silenced, then done nothing but watched or skulked away - that might have made the scene less groan-inducing.

Esmi in the whorehouse - if she'd been plotting, planning instead of just chilling that would have been better. That she was stronger in TTT as one of Kellhus's administrators, and weaker here is a problem for me. Granted she might not be able to handle the upgrade in responsibilities, but that she just seems to fall apart so easily gets unrealistic.

The final scene, with her going bat-shit when the Fanim arrive was also off putting. That she might be terrified is fine, that she starts tearing her out was caricature.

[Kalbear]

Who cares if some men say otherwise? That's meaningless. Its the physiology that is undeniable. And the physiology drives more conscious thought than people find comfortable.

Sure. It doesn't drive all conscious thought though. And people's descriptions of what they've thought (and them telling the truth about it) is important. Because it means Bakker is taking one point in science, taking his personal view of women, and categorizing all people everywhere with it.

Here's an interesting point: why don't we get Cnaiur admiring all the men the same way he admires the women? We get him thinking about Moe - but almost nothing about any other men. If this is a physiological certainty and it describes our conscious thought more than we'd like, clearly we should see Cnaiur talking about how hot Kellhus is or even wanting to fuck Akka or Conphas or any number of random men Cnaiur encounters.

Shouldn't that dominate his thoughts as well instead of the self-loathing we see? Cnaiur certainly thinks about how hot Serwe is. Why not other men?

Also, shouldn't Kellhus also be at least more cognizant of these things in his personal thoughts if this is something that happens all the time? Clearly he should be aware of it and be able to not act on it, but he should clearly have more thoughts about the women, no?

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Also, the scalpers willingness to rape Mimara, while likely accurate, seems to run somewhat counter to any sense of humanity they might have. If one had protested and quickly been silenced, then done nothing but watched or skulked away - that might have made the scene less groan-inducing.

But we know, objectively, that the scalpers are the most hideous of men, their humanity in fact burned to cinders. The Judging Eye shows us that this is what to expect. Knowing that about them it would have been silly for them to do anything else.

Esmi in the whorehouse - if she'd been plotting, planning instead of just chilling that would have been better. That she was stronger in TTT as one of Kellhus's administrators, and weaker here is a problem for me. Granted she might not be able to handle the upgrade in responsibilities, but that she just seems to fall apart so easily gets unrealistic.

The final scene, with her going bat-shit when the Fanim arrive was also off putting. That she might be terrified is fine, that she starts tearing her out was caricature.

I agree. The Esmi portrayal in WLW didn't seem consistent to me with her strength and competency in the previous 4 books. Bakker would probably say its bc of her biases regarding her children, but she seems to fall a pretty far distance, and it didn't ring true to the character IMO.

[Madness]

Kal, usually I like your opinions and they seem well thought out but did you just try and tell us that homosexuality is a biological imperative?

[Kalbear]

The same studies that show a physiological reaction in men to hot women show a physiological reaction in GAY men to other hot men. Thus the implication is that if you're gay, you'd be thinking about men the same way we see so many of the characters thinking about women.

Incidentally those same physiological studies also indicate that men (regardless of professed orientation)are very likely to be thinking about other men on some levels too; studies since the Kinsey scale have shown this. You'd think more people would want to be thinking about fucking Kellhus or at least admiring his taut body or whatever.

[navrat]

Bakker has had running arguments about the portrayal of women in his books for years and now and he clearly didnt tone it down in this one at all. In fact its almost like he pig headedly kept underlining it.

I wonder if its stubbornness about his message or whether he is trying to make it payoff thematically later on?

[Sci-2]

But we know, objectively, that the scalpers are the most hideous of men, their humanity in fact burned to cinders. The Judging Eye shows us that this is what to expect. Knowing that about them it would have been silly for them to do anything else.

I agree. The Esmi portrayal in WLW didn't seem consistent to me with her strength and competency in the previous 4 books. Bakker would probably say its bc of her biases regarding her children, but she seems to fall a pretty far distance, and it didn't ring true to the character IMO.

I'm not sure the Judging Eye is objective at all. As to the scalpers being the most hideous of men, this is also something I'm not convinced about. Why? Because the Slog is so hard? It kind of feels like we have to cut and paste concepts from Blood Meridian to justify this, because we do see the scalpers joking around and even being nice at times.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Sure. It doesn't drive all conscious thought though. And people's descriptions of what they've thought (and them telling the truth about it) is important. Because it means Bakker is taking one point in science, taking his personal view of women, and categorizing all people everywhere with it.

Wait, what? What is Bakker's personal view of women?

Here's an interesting point: why don't we get Cnaiur admiring all the men the same way he admires the women? We get him thinking about Moe - but almost nothing about any other men. If this is a physiological certainty and it describes our conscious thought more than we'd like, clearly we should see Cnaiur talking about how hot Kellhus is or even wanting to fuck Akka or Conphas or any number of random men Cnaiur encounters.

Shouldn't that dominate his thoughts as well instead of the self-loathing we see? Cnaiur certainly thinks about how hot Serwe is. Why not other men?

You can't be serious? Is homosexuality in Earwa as accepted as heterosexuality? Are homosexuals not discriminated against in Earwa? My assumption would be that in Earwa stigmatization of homosexuality might be worse than it is in reality. And its not like the stigmatization is gone from reality either.

Do we know that Cnaiur was a practicing and closeted homosexual or was he someone who was manipulated by the unique character of Moenghus? He can obviously get aroused enough to have sex with women. Is it a stretch to think that maybe, just maybe, Cnaiur's character is in denial? My read on it was that Cnaiur was pretty damned ashamed of his feelings and relationship with Moenghus - not a shock he might be compartmentalizing it considering the stigma. The self loathing is driven by the stigma.

Now in regards to the rape of Conphas, are the men who rape other men in prison homosexuals?

Also, shouldn't Kellhus also be at least more cognizant of these things in his personal thoughts if this is something that happens all the time? Clearly he should be aware of it and be able to not act on it, but he should clearly have more thoughts about the women, no?

Kellhus is Dunyain. Probably the most unrealistic human character in the entire series. If Bakker's goal was to paint Kellhus as realistically human as possible, then yes, he should have these thoughts more often than he does, but I don't think that was Bakker's idea for the character. The Dunyain are unrealistically super-human.

And he does have thoughts about the women, just not as often.

[Sci-2]

Kal, usually I like your opinions and they seem well thought out but did you just try and tell us that homosexuality is a biological imperative?

i'm at a loss as to why this is a problem.

[Madness]

Interesting, Kal.

EDIT: It's just a loaded statement to make, sciborg. What Kal adjusted his statement to, that we're all equally physiologically aroused by men and woman makes more sense to me than just if you're gay (a seemingly subjective orientation) then you're going to show physiologically arousal to men. My problem was that physiological arousal evolutionarily seemed to be based on procreation. Obviously, as I said, Kal made a good counter-argument.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Incidentally those same physiological studies also indicate that men (regardless of professed orientation)are very likely to be thinking about other men on some levels too; studies since the Kinsey scale have shown this.

Which fits in nicely with the characterization of Cnaiur. It also might be why he is so ashamed - if not for Moe, he'd never be sexually confused.

[Kalbear]

Wait, what? What is Bakker's personal view of women?

That he looks at women sexually. That's all. It seems very clear from all of his novels and every single male's PoV in those novels that this is a viewpoint he shares. It would be weird if he didn't, after all; then he'd be writing every male differently than how he himself views the world.

So it's clear to me that he looks at women on some level as sex objects. Which is not condemning him, by the way, especially since I doubt it actually affects his behaviors towards them.

You can't be serious? Is homosexuality in Earwa as accepted as heterosexuality? Are homosexuals not discriminated against in Earwa? My assumption would be that in Earwa stigmatization of homosexuality might be worse than it is in reality. And its not like the stigmatization is gone from reality either.

And by your arguments, none of this matters. It doesn't matter if homosexuality is as accepted or not. It doesn't matter if it's discriminated against or not. These are physiological facts, like you said - that homosexual men think about having sex with other men and sexualize other men when they look at them. The same parts of the brain light up for homosexual men thinking about or seeing other men as heterosexual men do thinking about women.

It's a physiological 'fact', as you put it.

Thus, if you're using one to justify your PoV descriptions, you should likely use the other, no?

Do we know that Cnaiur was a practicing and closeted homosexual or was he someone who was manipulated by the unique character of Moenghus?

We know that Bakker's intent was to make him a closeted homosexual from numerous interviews. And again it doesn't matter; once Cnaiur was attracted to men (whether you decide that is genetic or nurture doesn't even matter here) the fact is that the 'attraction' parts of the brain say 'hey, I want that' when you see something you're attracted to - man or woman. Once that wiring's in place, it's in place. Once Cnaiur starts wanting men, there's nothing that can stop him.

And like I said before, scientifically there's plenty of evidence that indicates that men think of attractive people of either sex in this same way regardless of their professed orientation, and those same 'I want that' centers light up regardless.

So again I ask - if your argument is that physiologically men react a certain way when they see attractive women - AND the same studies say that homosexuals have that same reaction to attractive men - why don't we get more of that with Cnaiur?

[Kalbear]

Trisk, Cnaiur is probably bisexual with leanings towards men. That's how I took him to mean. It's clear that from his last description of Moe and how he felt (the whole description of a wrestler's arms and hug and whatnot) that it wasn't just Moe that he had feelings about.

Really, most humans are on some intrinsic level bisexual. It's hard to coincide with our morality and our society, but anthropologically and biologically there's plenty of evidence for it, as there is evidence in psychological and neurological studies. Cnaiur being 'turned' gay isn't really that weird, though if you think about it it's a pretty evil thing in the book to say as far as Dunyain power and sexuality and Bakker's view on homosexuality if you believe that Cnaiur was otherwise straight.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

So again I ask - if your argument is that physiologically men react a certain way when they see attractive women - AND the same studies say that homosexuals have that same reaction to attractive men - why don't we get more of that with Cnaiur?

Easy. There is no stigma of heterosexuality in Earwa so there is no conscious effort by the heterosexuals to deny their thoughts that arise due to physiological impulse. That's why those lusts are so often at the surface of their thoughts.

There is a stigma against homosexuality ,which Cnaiur himself shares, he is suffering due to decades of denial and self-loathing and due to these factors he doesn't often openly lust after other men. He still has the physiological machinery grinding away inside, but it doesn't often claw its way to the surface. We see great evidence that the homosexuality is there ie the denial and self-loathing, but Cnaiur chooses to surpress it from his surface thoughts.

[Finn]

Also, these sorts of physiologically driven thoughts would probably be even more at the forefront of people's thoughts in a pre-modern patriarchal society than they are in our "enlightened" world

What would make you think this? One of Bakker's basic premises seems to be that pre-modern patriarchal societies are driven by specific (usually religious) ideologies. If we're going by ideological thinking, then it seems much more "modern" for individuals to think about sex all the time. But if it's simply physiological, as you claim, then the historical/ideological differences shouldn't matter.

Also, in pre-modern societies physical attractiveness is even more of a factor than it would be in our "enlightened" world where women were only allowed to vote about 100 years ago.

Again, what would make you think this?

You can't be serious? Is homosexuality in Earwa as accepted as heterosexuality? Are homosexuals not discriminated against in Earwa? My assumption would be that in Earwa stigmatization of homosexuality might be worse than it is in reality. And its not like the stigmatization is gone from reality either.

So . . . it is ideological rather than physiological? You don't seem to be tracking your own argument . . ..

Easy. There is no stigma of heterosexuality in Earwa so there is no conscious effort by the heterosexuals to deny their thoughts that arise due to physiological impulse. That's why those lusts are so often at the surface of their thoughts.

Are lust and sexual pleasure condoned by Inrithism, Fanimry, etc? Would be surprising (and very modern) if they were.

[Sci-2]

Since I'm re-reading Bakker and Martin both, let me throw this out there -> That men think about sex to a large extent may or may not be true, but what is true is that at times it seems Bakker uses it as justification for actions that seem forced. I've run through several times, and I don't get why Fayanal takes Yatwer's chosen as his concubine. Unless he just doesn't really care about the Solitary God of Fanism, which is fine, but we get no indication of this beforehand. Is he not risking his soul?

Sorweel being turned on by Serwa and Moenghus fucking is to be expected, but that he is so horny he has to jerk off right there and then seems out of place. I suppose one could argue that seeing Serwa in the throes of passion completely overwhelms his judgement...but again this feels like a reach to me.

Martin has lots of sex, and likely some of it seems gratuitous - the women in the stockades to be used by any man who wants comes to mind. Though I believe that was meant to show the punishing nature of Bolton or Tywin (can't recall who did this) However, sexual and romantic desires don't dominate every man to the point of idiocy. Everyone knows Melissandre is hot - perhaps hypnotically so. But still many men distrust her or see her as some kind of succubus type abomination.

Even Esmi winding up in the whorehouse, listening while the girl there takes custom - it seems like half the city was in support of her and thought her divine. But she winds up in a brothel, because that is the safest place? I sort of get the theme that she was confronting the distance between herself now and herself then, but this might have heartened her to know that she had learned to read, been trusted with incredible responsibilities - that she was a powerful protagonist in her own right doing her part to prevent the Second Apocalypse.

None of this is meant to suggest Bakker is sexist - as I said above, I think Bakker wants us to look at ancient, pre-rational societies without an escapist's eye. Problem is I think he is pushing things too far in that direction. You pile on too much of something and the book loses its narrative consistency. I don't think the series is sunk, but it would be nice to see a major female character POV who isn't a prostitute. Serwa I think would be an amazing POV, given that she is part Dunyain, a Mandati who has touched Seswatha's heart (why did her father make her do that I wonder), and is capable of human emotion.

[Finn]

Before getting sucked in to the latest Bakker and women installment, I had actually checked in to note that the Qirri + eating sranc developments reminded me of the weird moment at the end of TTT when Aurang says something mysterious to the boy who is collecting salt.

Could the salt from a choraed sorceror have some intriguing properties if ingested (snorted, smoked, whathaveyou)? Maybe in the extended director's cut we see Aurang and posse back at the topos doing a few lines of wizard . . .