The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[jurble]

The Scylvendi haven't withdrawn, they lost an entire generation of warriors at Kiyuth. It takes 20 years to make a man, I imagine that their activity is beginning to increase now.

[Sariel]

Didn't Essemet (sorry about misspelling every single name... it's just how it is) comment on how the Scylvendi withdrawal freed soldiers to be sent to that city that never was attacked anyway?

Also, it's something like 25 years since the Scylvendi were defeated. I'm sure they've regained enough strength to be a threat.

[Curethan]

Ah, the Scylvendi.

The inchies planned to reduce the population to 144,000.

I wonder if this is humans and non-men or just humans or all ensouled critters on greater Earwa?

(The inchies possibly incorrectly assumed they had to exterminate the non-men at first or maybe humans rose to take the non-men's place as the unconcious arbiters of external metaphysical objectivity?)

Guess Eanna must be fairly depopulated outside of the three seas, thus the inchies concentrate their efforts there?

Now, assuming the Scylvendi were to be numbered amongst the final 144,000, it follows that their religon is in accordance with what the inchies would like established after locking off the outside. And really, they seem to keep pretty firmly to the original scriptures of the tusk... Also, Cnair's comment of the night sky as a wall with tiny holes makes a lot of sense to me in this context.

[nonman_erratic]

Am I the only one that thinks Kellhus never said that the Dunyain were damned? I thought he was specifically referring to Moe, presumably because of the countless number of women and children he sacrificed to sate the lusts of the captive skin spies. With everything we know of damnation and the Dunyain, is there anything an average Dunyain would probably do to damn himself/herself? Besides the faceless room, the only thing I could think of is their atheistic bent. Without a direct or indirect (i.e. Zeum's) way into the heavens of the Gods, it seems they'd fall to the spaces between the Gods' realms which I suppose is hell since the Nonman worship that and they're damned. Makes me wonder, is there an Earwan version of the pearly gates?

If, in the outside, your soul goes to whatever portion of the outside you worshipped in life, whether it be to one of the Hundred, your ancestors, etc, then there is a certain holiness to the nonmen worshipping the spaces between the gods... Perhaps worshipping the spaces helps to bridge the fractures between the aspects of the outside/god, and so is a step toward unity of god in the outside.

Conversely, perhaps worshipping the spaces between the gods merely allows you to maintain your individuality in the outside and not be absorbed by other entities. Though that presumably would condemn you to an existence without a plurality of being, and no ability to change or become. Which is bad if you a nonman.

[Gaston de Foix]

If, in the outside, your soul goes to whatever portion of the outside you worshipped in life, whether it be to one of the Hundred, your ancestors, etc, then there is a certain holiness to the nonmen worshipping the spaces between the gods... Perhaps worshipping the spaces helps to bridge the fractures between the aspects of the outside/god, and so is a step toward unity of god in the outside.

Conversely, perhaps worshipping the spaces between the gods merely allows you to maintain your individuality in the outside and not be absorbed by other entities. Though that presumably would condemn you to an existence without a plurality of being, and no ability to change or become. Which is bad if you a nonman.

I have a question for all you Bakker-lovers. I've finished the White Luck Warrior recently but I read the other books ages ago and can't claim I understood them very well. I was wondering- why aren't the Dunyain concerned about damnation? I mean ok, we can argue about Kellhus' motives, but what about Moengus, Mathainet, Serwa. Inrilatus, etc? It seems like however intelligent they are, their souls will still be damned.

[jurble]

Moenghus didn't seem to believe in damnation or his own, at least. It's why he doesn't forsee Kellhus killing him. Kellhus knows that eventually Moenghus will believe, and to prevent his damnation he will seal shut the Outside. Maithanet, and Serwa and the other half-Dunyain appear to believe that Kellhus IS the God, and thus they are not damned. Inrilatus is damned, because he intentionally damned himself.

[Gaston de Foix]

Moenghus didn't seem to believe in damnation or his own, at least. It's why he doesn't forsee Kellhus killing him. Kellhus knows that eventually Moenghus will believe, and to prevent his damnation he will seal shut the Outside. Maithanet, and Serwa and the other half-Dunyain appear to believe that Kellhus IS the God, and thus they are not damned. Inrilatus is damned, because he intentionally damned himself.

I thought the Kellhus kids were told his true nature as a Dunyain by their mother?

[jurble]

They still believe he is The God. Even Esmenet still believes he is a God. It's like how Achamian confronts Kellhus about being Dunyain in TTT, and Kellhus answers who else would God choose as his prophet except the one most likely to get shit done?

[Finn]

On the whole sin/damnation thing-

It seems as if there are now two models that aren't entirely compatible. On the one hand, there's the model in which sin is an objective fact (whatever this means and however this comes about). You accrue enough of the right kinds of sins, you’re damned. The Judging Eye seems to corroborate this insofar as it renders sin/damnation visible. In a way, this is a kind of existentialist model: you are what you do.

On the other hand, things said in TWLW seem to suggest that the outside is essentially a patronage system. If you're in good with Yatwer, for instance, I imagine that you can commit all kinds of crimes/sins and it won't be a problem. (See also the getting in through the backdoor via dead relatives in Zeum). If this is how it works, is the reverse also true? If someone is as pure as the driven snow but worships the space in-between the gods, is that person damned? In any case, in this model it's not what you are or what you do, but who you know (and who you're in good with).

It's also interesting that the Judging Eye seems to see damnation. That is, it may be seeing the current state of your soul, but it can also see your future in the Outside.

I wonder what the Judging Eye would see if it came upon a sinner who was destined to be saved by one of the gods despite the state of their soul? Or vice versa.

[jurble]

I think looking at the Captain clarifies the issue. Kosoter knows he is damned. He is a devout Zaudunyani, but the only reason he's a Scalper is because he knows the sins he has committed across his life don't outweigh his belief, so he's after a Shrial Remission. I think this implies that the Gods have the ability to wipe delete sins, if they find you acceptable.

[Gaston de Foix]

Just a nitpick: I think it would imply that The Captain believes this to be the case, but it doesn't necessarily clarify to the reader if he's correct about that.

I think this must be right; wasn't it remission by Kellhus that the Captain was after? IF Kellhus is a fraud, they are all damned. Is there anything to suggest Maithanet truly believes Kellhus is a God?

[MisterGuyMan]

The outside mirrors the mundane world on several levels. Akka observes that the differences between the Outside and the mundane world is a matter of degree and not actual substance. Even Moe and Kellhus, the first after decades of observation and the latter from firsthand study, observe that the outside is a glorified battlefield of warring factions.

Apparently your mundane life merely sets your position for the afterlife. Inithrism gives you a path to cozy up with a god of your choice in the hopes that they can protect you once your soul finds its way in the afterlife. This only applies, of course, to the compensatory gods. Gilgaol, the god of war, who is not a compensatory god would have otherwise taken the Captain under his protection. Zuem bypasses this by setting up ancestors together in similar groups that can watch for one another. Zuemi doesn't deny the existence of the Hundred, they just believe your own kin are more reliable allies in the Outside. This coincides with Kellhus' observation that the Outside is nothing more than innumerable factions warring amongst themselves.

By contrast the few that bruise themselves seem like they just mark themselves for any Ciphrang that is strong enough to claim them for an everlasting snack. This could explain why Cishaurim don't bruise. The Tusk specifically condemns sorcerers as an abomination. Fanism specifically exalts the Pshuke as being closer to the Solitary God.

After some contemplation here's my current theory. At one point one of the characters, I believe it was Kayutas, notes that the Great Ordeal is nothing more than a vehicle to transport the thousands of sorcerers. It's also noted that Topos are, quite literally, gates into Hell. The greater the Topos, the closer you are to the Outside. You're essentially in the Outside at that point on varying degrees. Kellhus' entire plan for the Ordeal is to take the entire expedition to the largest Topos in the world and... just stay there. At that point he'd have an actual army in the Outside backed a core of sorcerers in their thousands. Whatever Zauduyani survive would be able to help as well. We know that the Gods and Demons all value and collect human souls so they must have some purpose in the Outside. From there Kellhus builds strength by dominating the lower Ciphrang, recruiting tormented sorcerers' souls and begins building a mansion strong enough to eventually challenge the Hundred. Since it appears that the Hundred are just more powerful and more legitimate Ciphrang, the Dunyain axiom of dominating circumstance must extend logically to dominating the Hundred. Likely human souls, Nonmen souls, Ciphrang and even the gods are all essentially the same in the Outside.

[Curethan]

I wonder what the Judging Eye would see if it came upon a sinner who was destined to be saved by one of the gods despite the state of their soul? Or vice versa.

Read that bit near the end. Mimara quite explicity says that its not too late for the scalper about to rape her to be saved from damnation, but it seems to require action on his part (starting with not raping her). Damnation mixs with salvation within the soul - she sees the gold of the former beneath the corruption of the latter.

[gladius]

MisterGuyMan - I agree with your explanation of the outside.

[Happy Ent]

Done with the book.

Done with the 600+ posts that came after it. It almost broke me. Much has been said that I need not repeat.

--

I have increasing confidence that we are manipulating Bakker. By now, he is just a puppet that jerks according to which strings we pull. Maia got an explanation of why sorcerers don't build highway ramps. A female characters is not a whore, and possesses agency, and uses intercourse for personal gratification. "As ever, death came swirling down."

And I, finally, after years or nagging, got my sentient trees. Man, that was great. And the series was already pretty good from an arboreal perspective. I will try to write more about the Mop after I reread those chapters.

--

Claim: In Prince of Nothing, Bakker deliberately and overtly uses themes and events from the Real history of Earth: the crusades.

In Aspect Emperor Bakker deliberately and overtly uses themes and events from Tolkien. In particular, in the Slog arc. So far we've seen Moria, Fangorn, and Smaug. And maybe Gollum. I wonder if there's another iconic scene he will treat us to in the third book. Zombie army? Eagles? Granted, as many others already observed, the Holy War itself might parallel Aragorn's mad attack on the Morannon.

--

As usual, I seem to be the only one who likes characters that don't use swords or magic… I love Esmi, just as I love Catelyn, and don't find her behaviour particularly stupid. It's all doomed and heart-breaking, of course, and not particularly uplifting to read about.

I believe that form a narrative point of view Esmi needed to be cloistered from the world for some time, because otherwise she'd know that the Fanim are rushing towards Momemn. I need to re-read that chapter, but everybody else must know that they are close – Fayanal can't just move an army from Shigek (across a mountain range!) without anybody noticing. But to Esmi (and the reader) their proximity needs to be a surprise.

--

I needed too long to figure out that the thing called Soma had become the last of the Stone Hags. Obvious, really, with him keeping up despite the lack of Quirri.

--

Bakker's writing is almost flawless by now. The one thing that irritated me most in the first few books – the final sentences that just trial off into nothing, or end in a farcically exaggerated emotion, or in an authorial POV comment about human nature – are almost…

He screamed, for men always mistake volume for sincerity.

[Madness]

Ah HE. How I've missed your perspective. Cheers, my friend.

[Finn]

. . . an authorial POV comment about human nature

I thought that Bakker had gotten away from this a bit in TJE, but this was back in full force in TWLW. I've started to think of this as the Blog seeping in.

I'd never really understood what people meant when they said there was too much "philosophy" in the books. There is some philosophy (and obviously philosophical-underpinnings), but not *that* much and for the most part it's interesting. But then I realized they were referring to all this "wisdom" about human psychology that gets dispensed along the way: "Men are ever blind to the way they conflate desire with necessity . . . " "And so do men ever measure the world by the yardstick of their blah blah blah . . . "

The hilarious thing about TWLW is that he just throws this stuff in there regardless of POV. Everyone in the novel, it turns out, will sound like Bakker's blog sooner or later. (As someone pointed out upthread, even the Dragon!)

[Maithanet]

Has anyone mentioned that Cnauir is dead? I thought for sure there would be discussion on that. Just like in TJE, there is a bombshell hidden in What Has Come Before section. I mean, I expected that he was dead, but it was nice to have it confirmed quietly.

I thought it was obvious that Kellhus wanted the Southern Army destroyed. The way he was isolating his armies and leaving them to their own devices seems a very strange move on his part. And when he gave them the Mandate sorcerers, and once again left, it was obvious that they were walking on Conditioned ground. And then they form a plan on thier own which fails miserably, only to have Kellhus arrive at the last possible moment. Not to save the army, which was of course already murdered, but to save some of the sorcerers. You know, the ones he actually needs. And even still, not before a few of them buy it, to demonstrate the gravity of the situation. All according to plan.

I agree that the timeline with Fanayal arriving outside Momemn seemed a bit messed up, although it is hard to keep track of how long everything takes. I was also surprised at the lack of progress the Great Ordeal is making. I'd imagined that they had made it further in TJE.

For title of the last series, couldn't it be something simple like "The Last Dunyain" or "The Last Anasurimbor"? That would be a spoiler that Ishual is destroyed, and hence why he didn't mentioned it earlier.

I've seen a lot of discussion of the big questions: Why did Kellhus put Esmi in charge rather than Maitha? Did he intend for his empire to fall, and simply not care? The problem with that theory is if that's the case, why did he return to Esmi in TJE? What was the point of that trip, if not to try and bring the Yatwerians to heel?

I have trouble imagining that Kellhus would simply let his empire crumble because he couldn't be bothered. It is not like him to waste a tool; I suspect a deeper game.

Oh and poor Maithanet. He was really solid in this book.

I'm still trying to put together where I think this story is going, but I'll save that deeper discussion for after I've made it through everyone's posts. I've only read 15 pages of the thread, so I apologize if anything in here has been covered. I just really want to talk about the books, and reading the other 20 or so remaining pages is just too much waiting.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Is Cnaiur dead? Is Kellhus mad? We cannot necessarily trust that section.

Personally I think Meppa is Cnaiur. He doesn't remember who he once was, so even if I'm right Cnaiur has still, in a way, died.

[Yellow]

If you're referring to the "Before his death..." quote, then I still think it's entirely subjective and not necessarily true. People in the story believe it, so it's the narrative truth, if not the actual truth.

I found another quote regarding the 144,000 in chapter six. At the time it didn't really mean much, but looking at it again, it's quite interesting. From page 187 (UK TPB):

"For a time he suffered the eerie sense that he walked one of the great capitals of the Three Seas, that these were the ruins of Momemn, Carythusal or Invishi, and they were the Last Men, thirteen instead of the one hundred and forty-four thousand of legend, and that no matter how far they travelled, how many horizons they outran, all they would find is soot and broken stone."

This, taken with Wutteat's words and the header from chapter twelve, makes me think that the 144,000 have nothing to do with souls trapped inside the No-God. It really is the number that the Consult want to reduce the number of men to (no mention of Nonmen in that quote above). It's interesting that Akka knows of this theory. It most likely came from Seswatha of course... but where did he learn of it? Anyway, I'm sure this will probably be explained in the next book.

So for me, this rules out the idea that 144,000 souls are required to make the No-God. I reckon now that Nau-Cayuti was the sole soul (ha!) comprising the No-God (how that ties in with the long line leading to the golden room, I don't know). And my magic prediction hat is telling me Kayutas will fill the same role in the second apocalypse out of pure symnmetry.