The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[Borque]

Phew, finished this morning.

General reaction - awesome. Liked it better than TJE.

Now going to start with the spoiler threads. Lots of stuff to discuss, probably most of it has been covered already though.

[lokisnow]

this didn't make it into the edited post last night, but I thought this was an interesting quote

pg 118:

The world has its own ways, sockets so deep that not even the Gods can dislodge them. No urn is so cracked as Fate.

It's pretty evident that Akka is being driven by fate. But this line indicates that Fate is NOT a god. I never noted that before. It also seems to suggest that Fate is sort of the personification of The World's will.

[MisterGuyMan]

I think I just had an epiphany. Perhaps the 'No-God' moniker isn't just a name. What would the Outside be like with no Gods? Souls that end up in the Outside would find no Gods to claim them, no Ciphrang to prey on them and no Ancestors to shelter them. This would be an afterlife devoid of any order and ruled by pure entropy. The cumulative body of souls would still try to dominate any other wayward soul caught in its path but no single soul would ever be allowed to gain enough power to enslave or dominate other souls. Now insert this construct into mundane Earwa and would it resemble the No-God as we know it? All unborn souls are immediately sucked into the No-God's abyss. Anyone that died in the presence of the No-God would likewise lose their souls. As Achamian put it eloquently, the soul that encounters the No-God goes no farther. Absent any dominant personalities or factions, the multitude of souls would only be united in their feeling of helplessness and feelings of being lost. Going even further on that point, as an afterlife, there wouldn't be any bliss or torment to cement memories. With no stimuli, all souls go erratic and lose any semblance of what they were. Even further, the vast bulk of souls are stolen from newborns who start with no recollection at all. As one they all cry out with a single voice asking the simplest but most pertinent of questions: Who am I? What do you See? Questions of identity. The No-God would resemble a Topos. All souls in the mundane world would also sense this growing abyss that would claim all souls into itself. Their souls would literally be pulled toward it and any souled beings would sense it on the horizon.

It would only take a small leap from there to try and explain why the Gods would be blind to the No-God. If all souls are connected to each other, or are essentially shards of the same soul, then on some level souls are aware of each other. The Gods having the most awareness. Sorcerers recall more than most but imperfectly. The No-God, by definition, would be defined as the sum all souls that are no longer connected to all other souls.

I have other new thoughts for potential reasons why the NE is failing or should fail. I just need some time to organize them.

[Madness]

Anagkë, Goddess of fortune

Also known as “the Whore of Fate” Anagkë is one of the primary “Compensatory Gods,” which is to say, one who rewards devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife. Her Cult is extremely popular in the Three Seas, especially among the higher, political castes.[7] According to old Kiünnat tradition, Anagkë is the younger sister of Bukris.[8] Anagkë is also commonly called simply the Whore,[9] or the Whore of Fate.[10] Anagkë also seems to be associated with the stars. In the text a star is said to have “entered the horizon of Anagke.” The augur calls this an excellent conjunction.[11]

This has been posted before but, because its relevant:

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Gods

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Hm… OK, I can buy that.

As somebody who understands Gödel’s theorems pretty well, I was really annoyed with Mimara’s interrogation of the skin spy. A very naive interpretation of the “mechanical systems are by necessity incomplete” idea.

Your explanation makes it better.

Well, I may know very much about Gödel's theorems, but I also thought it was very cliched. Come on, it is the method humans used to confound rebellious robots in all old sci-fi pulps. I admit this explanation makes more sense, though.

[Borque]

So, now through with both spoiler threads. Only a few things to add at this point. With the reservation that some of it may already have been mentioned by others, I might very well have missed something.

First - I agree with the posters claiming that the misogeny feels like it has gotten worse. Though I can't say whether this is a question of me just looking more for it this time around for obvious reasons, or if there actually is more of it. I will withhold final judgement at least until the AE sequence is complete. I want to see where Scott takes this.

Second - the controversial Sorweel masturbation scene. I definitely found it jarring at first, but after thinking about it, it does work. I suspect the whole scene is set up by Serwa (and/or Kellhus). Possibly to condition Sorweel to behave more like an actual enemy of Kellhus/Serwa - the Nonmen probably wouldn't be happy at all with their Niom deal if the "enemy" turns out to be madly in love with the "daughter" and a diehard Kellhus supporter.

Third - Ishterebinth. Going there is going to be hugely interesting. The Nonmen there, "Intact" (if there still are any such ones left - that particular reference was from Akka/Seswatha and ~2000 years old) or not, definitely seem to be siding with the Consult from the direct evidence we get (NG claiming they have gone over and the emissaries pretending to be sent by Nil'giccas, which we know is false). But somehow I don't think it's going to be that simple, especially if Kellhus already knows this, which seems quite possible - it's entirely plausible he knows that the real Nil'giccas is with Achamian and the Skin Eaters. Or, he could have got relevant information from interrogating skin-spies, as has been mentioned here already.

Fourth - Nau-Cayûti. Since he apparently was used in the creation of the No-God, the Celmomian Prophecy scene on the fields of Eleneöt does look more disturbing:

"My son... Do you think he'll be there, Seswatha? Do you think he’ll greet me as his father?"

"Yes... As his father, and as his king."

"Did I ever tell you," Celmomas said, his voice cracking with futile pride, "that my son once stole into the deepest pits of Golgotterath?"

"Yes." Achamian smiled through his tears. "Many times, old friend."

"How I miss him, Seswatha! How I yearn to stand at his side once again."

The old king wept for a moment. Then his eyes grew wide. "I see him so clearly. He’s taken the sun as his charger, and he rides among us. I see him! Galloping through the hearts of my people, stirring them to wonder and fury!"

"Shush... Conserve your strength, my King. The surgeons are coming."

"He says... says such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha — an Anasurimbor will return..." A shudder wracked the old man, forcing breath and spittle through his teeth.

"At the end of the world."

Now, my interpretation, in the light of WLW knowledge, is that the "sun" Celmomas sees here is the No-God - operating like the "great light" radiating love and stuff that is often described in near-death experiences. This, I speculate, is how it appears to souls to draw them in.

And, if the Nau-Cayûti Celmomas sees here is connected to Mog-Pharau, that would surely raise some doubts about the Celmomian Prophecy.

Or Cel could just be slightly delusional from being almost dead and all.

Fifth - from the Qirri we can surmise that eating Sranc will have consequences. And those consequences are going to be more or less horrific, since it's Bakker writing. The question is exactly what they are, the most obvious possibility would be the entire Ordeal turning into gibbering, sadistic rapists, but that would maybe be too obvious.

Lastly, as a fellow and devout Nil'giccasari I really hate to rain on Trisk's parade. But. C=NG was discussed here as a hypothesis already back in -09, at that time I brought it up. I'm fairly sure I brought it up the last time it came up as well. However, I don't remember where it came from originally - if it was my own idea or if it was something I saw here or on the Three Seas forum earlier. That said, it does in no way diminish Trisk's excellent catch with the Seswatha NG dream, which provided important and much-needed evidence to The Cause.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I'm at work and so cannot check the timeline, but IF Eleonot and Celmomas' death occurred prior to the coming of the No-God and IF the Nau-Cayuti theory is true, could it be that NC was simply warning his father of his imminent return as the No-God, "at the end of the world" (or at least so they thought)?

Crackpot Celmomian prophecy misunderstanding.

[Maithanet]

I'm at work and so cannot check the timeline, but IF Eleonot and Celmomas' death occurred prior to the coming of the No-God and IF the Nau-Cayuti theory is true, could it be that NC was simply warning his father of his imminent return as the No-God, "at the end of the world" (or at least so they thought)?

Crackpot Celmomian prophecy misunderstanding.

Well, maybe I'm missing something, but if the clues are pointing to Nau-Cayuti being the son of Seswatha, we need to ask ourselves who could be Celmomas' actual son. I don't even have a decent idea of who the candidates might be.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

You're right, I forgot about the Seswatha hints. Which makes me wonder (like you) who, if anyone, Celmomas actually saw.

Do we think that NC knows he's not Celmomas' son? If not, I can still see him coming to Celmomas with a warning or prophecy.

[Jon AS]

You're right, I forgot about the Seswatha hints. Which makes me wonder (like you) who, if anyone, Celmomas actually saw.

Kellhus sends a message back in time, to condition the ground for his taking over the world so that he can then do whatever the hell it is he plans on doing. Duh. :P

[Borque]

I'm at work and so cannot check the timeline, but IF Eleonot and Celmomas' death occurred prior to the coming of the No-God and IF the Nau-Cayuti theory is true, could it be that NC was simply warning his father of his imminent return as the No-God, "at the end of the world" (or at least so they thought)?

Crackpot Celmomian prophecy misunderstanding.

Well the timeline is

2140 N-C "dies"

2143 Mog appears

2146 Eleneöt

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Well the timeline is

2140 N-C "dies"

2143 Mog appears

2146 Eleneöt

Yeah, checked it when I got home... so I guess my crackpottery is already shot out of the water :P

[Curethan]

Don't worry. If you are in search of crackpottery, you can join my new group the Meppanistas. We are the Sacred Possessors of the Fourth Sight, those who believe that Meppa is Fane incarnate and will save humanity by channeling all of the beauty of the Solitary God's voice into the mightiest gush of Water ever known right into the heart of the carapace, ever destroying it in a way that the Heron Spear could not.

Whilst Akka tapdances to 'Raindrops keep falling on my head'. Then Mog gives one last "YOU MUST TELL ME. WHO AM I." and mighty Meppafane drops an 'Arnie'; "You're all vawshed up..."

[Madness]

While there are many things that catch my eye during a reread, there are three I wanted to point out.

C.5, p. 141 - Kelmomas calls the voice Sammi. More interestingly, he refers to the person he sees trapped in every dying person's eyes, the only person he loves more than his Mother. Calls it, the Worshipper - it's spelt like this twice on the same page, typo?

- Shades of the Chiropractor in Neuropath. Though, what would that mean for a boy with two souls in a fantasy world?

C.5, p. 148 - Kelmomas is talking to Inrilatas about the proportions of God and resembling Him. Inrilatas leads Kelmomas to some kind of realization, follows a connection of memories noting his Whelming, Ajolki and Kelmomas sharing laughter, and Yatwer's inability to do anything while Kelmomas gleefully killed the Yatwerians, until there's a single word, Godhead.

C.6, p. 156 - The Stone Hags are shivering in the rain and the Skin Eaters are steaming because they're so hot? What's up with that?

EDIT: I have the bigger paperback set of the AE.

Couple more questions.

The Zeumi have an entire School, the Mbimayu, which didn't accompany the Ordeal? This would seem purposeful on Kellhus' part. Why would he strip the Three-Seas of Schoolmen and Chorae, leaving the NE's only threatening neighbour with their entire School?

I realize this might be mute, as I figure many readers have already agreed that it was Kellhus' intent that the Zeumi should conquer.

What matters here and in much of our speculation is the time frame. So many factions, even characters and plot lines are reactionary to Kellhus. Many choices are happening based on the fact of people not trusting Kellhus or trusting Kellhus, which Kellhus said was regardless once everyone has felt the dread presence of the No-God.

Is there anything aside from complete and utter weakness and decay for the NE that Kellhus might hope the Zeumi to accomplish before the No-God awakes?

K, done.

[Borque]

I'll just go for the easy ones. Haven't the faintest clue about the others.

C.6, p. 156 - The Stone Hags are shivering in the rain and the Skin Eaters are steaming because they're so hot? What's up with that?

I assumed that was due to the Qirri.

Is there anything aside from complete and utter weakness and decay for the NE that Kellhus might hope the Zeumi to accomplish before the No-God awakes?

Possibly to neutralise the Scylvendi, when/if they start pouring into the Three Seas. If Zeüm takes the NE they will be there to defend it. Their school would be handy for that, too.