The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I've seen a lot of discussion of the big questions: Why did Kellhus put Esmi in charge rather than Maitha? Did he intend for his empire to fall, and simply not care? The problem with that theory is if that's the case, why did he return to Esmi in TJE? What was the point of that trip, if not to try and bring the Yatwerians to heel?

I have trouble imagining that Kellhus would simply let his empire crumble because he couldn't be bothered. It is not like him to waste a tool; I suspect a deeper game.

I don't think anyone before mentioned in this thread Kellhus saying to Esmi in TJE that The White-Luck will break against her. I just remembered it and, you know, it still may happen. Perhaprs Kellhus knew what he was doing, after all.

[generic]

I thought it was obvious that Kellhus wanted the Southern Army destroyed. The way he was isolating his armies and leaving them to their own devices seems a very strange move on his part. And when he gave them the Mandate sorcerers, and once again left, it was obvious that they were walking on Conditioned ground. And then they form a plan on thier own which fails miserably, only to have Kellhus arrive at the last possible moment. Not to save the army, which was of course already murdered, but to save some of the sorcerers. You know, the ones he actually needs. And even still, not before a few of them buy it, to demonstrate the gravity of the situation. All according to plan.

Possible. But the reasons he splits up the army are basically sound. Even if they could have started eating Sranc earlier water would still have been a problem. Also I think one of his secondary objectives is converting the Zeüm prince. And starvation was a neccessary precondition for getting rid of all his retinue. Finally the army of the south died awfully fast.

On the other hand: What is he doing with his time? Given his teleport ability why does he only make appearances in case of emergency? He must have been as aware of the coming crisis as the Consult. The Mandate Grandmaster seems astonishingly inept. If he was a Dunyani then the death of the South was planned.

[Finn]

Apparently your mundane life merely sets your position for the afterlife. Inithrism gives you a path to cozy up with a god of your choice in the hopes that they can protect you once your soul finds its way in the afterlife. This only applies, of course, to the compensatory gods. Gilgaol, the god of war, who is not a compensatory god would have otherwise taken the Captain under his protection. Zuem bypasses this by setting up ancestors together in similar groups that can watch for one another. Zuemi doesn't deny the existence of the Hundred, they just believe your own kin are more reliable allies in the Outside. This coincides with Kellhus' observation that the Outside is nothing more than innumerable factions warring amongst themselves.

Yes, this seems to be the direction the recent evidence is pointing us. My problem is that I have trouble squaring an Outside that is a free-for-all with amoral gods/demons in contention w/ each other with the whole objective morality/judging eye thing. What's the point of an objective morality if damnation or salvation is subject to the whims of powerful gods/demons?

Read that bit near the end. Mimara quite explicity says that its not too late for the scalper about to rape her to be saved from damnation, but it seems to require action on his part (starting with not raping her). Damnation mixs with salvation within the soul - she sees the gold of the former beneath the corruption of the latter.

Right, I had forgotten that bit. And I think it's in relation to the very same scalper that she sees the specifics of his damnation: being bounced around between particular demons. So . . . does she only see the probable future given the current state of the soul . . . ?

The nature of time - in the outside, to the gods, in relations to the Judging Eye - seems like it's going to be a key to the series.

[Finn]

I don't think anyone before mentioned in this thread Kellhus saying to Esmi in TJE that The White-Luck will break against her. I just remembered it and, you know, it still may happen. Perhaprs Kellhus knew what he was doing, after all.

This would seem to support Kal's theory that the Empire is a shiny bauble to distract the gods. There are a couple of instance where the idea that the Gods don't "see" so well comes up. The idea seems to be that because they see the "whole" and see it all at once (including past, present, and future), they see specific details, circumstances, etc less well.

Mimara and the gods see some version of the future, but it's also clear that the future is not yet written (why would the gods bother intervening otherwise?). I think we will all need to brush up on the Dune series before this is over.

[jurble]

Yes, this seems to be the direction the recent evidence is pointing us. My problem is that I have trouble squaring an Outside that is a free-for-all with amoral gods/demons in contention w/ each other with the whole objective morality/judging eye thing. What's the point of an objective morality if damnation or salvation is subject to the whims of powerful gods/demons?

Who says the Gods and Ciphrang are amoral?

[Finn]

Who says the Gods and Ciphrang are amoral?

Probably a poor choice of words. I have no idea what the gods/demons are or what they might think as individual agents. Collectively, however, they don't seem to present a unified front vis-a-vis morality. And they don't seem above saving or not saving who they want regardless of the state of the person's soul. Of course, this is just the impression I'm getting from some of the things we heard in TWLW. We don't know enough about the gods yet to say much of anything definitively.

[Happy Ent]

My problem is that I have trouble squaring an Outside that is a free-for-all with amoral gods/demons in contention w/ each other with the whole objective morality/judging eye thing. What's the point of an objective morality if damnation or salvation is subject to the whims of powerful gods/demons?

Allow me to hook unto that question.

The increasing number of details about the metaphysics revealed to the reader in White-Luck, as well as Judging, largely confirms the ideas that I have been harping on this form for a while. At least, I have seen little evidence that has made me re-think the priors I have been nourishing here for a while.

(I am sure the book would have made an even stronger impression on me, had we not figured out quite a bunch of stuff on this forum already. Imagine reading these books in a tempo without the benefit of digestion that our dozens of Bakker-threads provide.)

To address Finn's question: objectivity and malleability are no incompatible. The laws in my country are very real, and have very real consequences for them that break them. Yet they are social conventions. The central conceit of Bakker's metaphysics is that morality (and the implied damnation or salvation) is real as well. That does not mean that the rule of morality are set in stone or authored by a single entity whose authority trumps all others. It simply means that if you break the law (jaywalking, lying to your loved ones) then it has consequences (pay a fine, burn in hell).

The mechanism by which the rules of morality are authored are not conceptually different in Bakkerworld and ours. They are social constructs, authored by all living souls. The difference is the effect. In our world, it turns out that you don't actually burn in Hell. In Bakkerworld, Hell is real, and wicked souls go there.

Thus, just like the (mundane) Law, morality is both objective and malleable.

--

Thanks to whoever upthread speculated that Kellhus will bring about a World Without Gods. I'm not normally a fan of speculation about where the story is going, preferring to talk about what we've already seen. But this idea sounds very right to me. It's a standard fantasy trope, so for that reason it would appeal to Bakker to use it as the capstone. And it's perfectly compatible with Kellhus's original programming: the Dunyain did, in some sense, cloister themselves in a world without gods. Kellhus, as an agent of Modernity, should change Eärwan metaphysics to our world's metaphysics: no objective morality.

No meaning.

In this way, the inverse Bildungsroman would be completed: the perfect man comes down from his mountain, sees the world full of meaning, and then kills meaning. Entzauberung indeed.

I love it. I'm sure Bakker can make it really uncomfortable.

[Kalbear]

Thus, just like the (mundane) Law, morality is both objective and malleable.

You have a very different definition of objective than what I understand it to be.

I still think - and nothing tells me otherwise in WLW - that the rules are objective, but the entities out there can manipulate those rules differently depending. My suspicion is that if you are damned, you are likely to go to a demon of some kind - the ciphrang or one of the more powerful demons, aka Yatwer and the like. The truly saved do not go to those demonics; they go...elsewhere. We actually don't have an idea of what happens outside of damnation yet, only what happens when damnation occurs, but my theory is damnation is not influenced at all by the gods or the outside entities and is completely separate from those entities.

this is so far fully supported by the discussion. And it also allows Kellhus an 'out' - if he becomes a powerful entity in the Outside of his own right, he can 'save' his followers in the same way Yatwer can save her worshippers.

[lokisnow]

The nature of time - in the outside, to the gods, in relations to the Judging Eye - seems like it's going to be a key to the series.

I sort of fell like we got an explanation for the paradox of the Celmomian prophecy in White Luck Warrior. It's just buried rather deep. Because Celmo was close to the outside at the moment of his death, and because Kellhus presumably becomes a God (I've not yet worked out how Mim works into this) he will be able to see the past present and future simultaneously when experiencing the outside. This means that he would be able to send a message to the past to someone, like Celmo, who is near the outside upon death. This would also fit neatly within Earth mythology about seeing your ancestors/dead relatives at the moment of your death. ;) You could even work in the Zeumi ancestor bit, that Kellhus would only be able to make such a connection with someone whom he is already connected to or near in the outside--his ancestors. If the Zeumi Ancestor stuff is based on ancient Kuniuri, we can presume that the Anasurimbors, before Ishual at least, practiced Zeumi like ancester worship, and have a small contingent in the outside. Crackpot alert, perhaps it is the Anasurimbor ancestors outside that have been guiding Kell?

Thanks to whoever upthread speculated that Kellhus will bring about a World Without Gods. I'm not normally a fan of speculation about where the story is going, preferring to talk about what we've already seen. But this idea sounds very right to me. It's a standard fantasy trope, so for that reason it would appeal to Bakker to use it as the capstone. And it's perfectly compatible with Kellhus's original programming: the Dunyain did, in some sense, cloister themselves in a world without gods. Kellhus, as an agent of Modernity, should change Eärwan metaphysics to our world's metaphysics: no objective morality.

No meaning.

In this way, the inverse Bildungsroman would be completed: the perfect man comes down from his mountain, sees the world full of meaning, and then kills meaning. Entzauberung indeed.

I love it. I'm sure Bakker can make it really uncomfortable.

I love it too. Bakker has stated that with Prince of Nothing he is turning the toothless saw of modern literature on its head: "a protagonist trying to find meaning in an apparently meaningless world."

Kellhus' goals are not that different from the Consult's but I think he sees beyond them. They try to shut the world to the outside in order to prevent damnation, to put an end to objective morality. Unfortunately, shutting the world to the outside is a majorly bad idea because it results in the extinction of the human race. Kellhus, I think, has no intention of shutting the world to the outside. I think instead he intends to destroy or unify the gods themselves and completely remove their influence from Earwa.

I wonder if Kellhus' goal is to use the No-God against the Gods, rather than against Earwa. I wonder if he intends to resurrect the No-God, but to resurrect him in the outside, and use it to wage war against the Gods themselves. There's something very Greek/Zeus about such an idea...

Such silly speculations remind me of just how passionately curious I am about the nature of the Cunuroi. Who are they, where did they come from, why are they on Earwa?

[Happy Ent]

You have a very different definition of objective than what I understand it to be.

Yes, I know. That's why I tried to make it clear. I think Bakker made a pedagogical blunder in an interview a few years back when he said "Objective like the atomic with of Uranium" or something like that. He should say "Objective like the identity of the current president."

(I can, of course, be completely wrong about this. But so far, it fits. All I'm saying.)

[lokisnow]

also, Kal, I was just tweaking, I wasn't being very serious before regarding the brief uproar of Bakker hates women flames. My apologies if I offended.

Allow me to hook unto that question.

The increasing number of details about the metaphysics revealed to the reader in White-Luck, as well as Judging, largely confirms the ideas that I have been harping on this form for a while. At least, I have seen little evidence that has made me re-think the priors I have been nourishing here for a while.

We must beware confirmation bias, lest we all become one with Nerdanel. :)

[Finn]

You have a very different definition of objective than what I understand it to be.

I still think - and nothing tells me otherwise in WLW - that the rules are objective, but the entities out there can manipulate those rules differently depending. My suspicion is that if you are damned, you are likely to go to a demon of some kind - the ciphrang or one of the more powerful demons, aka Yatwer and the like. The truly saved do not go to those demonics; they go...elsewhere. We actually don't have an idea of what happens outside of damnation yet, only what happens when damnation occurs, but my theory is damnation is not influenced at all by the gods or the outside entities and is completely separate from those entities.

this is so far fully supported by the discussion. And it also allows Kellhus an 'out' - if he becomes a powerful entity in the Outside of his own right, he can 'save' his followers in the same way Yatwer can save her worshippers.

This would make sense to me. According to this idea, we have two separate models of the afterlife: one for those who are actually saved, another for those who are damned. Everything we've seen so far seems to pertain to the damned who would suffer more or less depending on their relation to some powerful god/demon. I particularly like this because then most of the religions of Earwa would seem to be demon-worshiping cults devoted to making the best of hell.

The Judging Eye would then seem to be aligned with the objective morality that separates the saved from the damned. According to this idea, we've heard next to nothing about those actually saved. Do they go to the solitary god? The god of gods that Kellhus invokes? Do they obtain sweet, sweet oblivion?

I would love it if the last were true. The sinners are sent to the Outside to suffer to a greater or lesser extent at the hands of demons. The non-sinners escape this fate by ceasing to be. Maybe the no-god was really a savior of sorts, allowing souls to escape the cycle of crime and punishment . . . :thumbsup:

[Kalbear]

Yes, I know. That's why I tried to make it clear. I think Bakker made a pedagogical blunder in an interview a few years back when he said "Objective like the atomic with of Uranium" or something like that. He should say "Objective like the identity of the current president."

See, I guess that's where I"m confused. There's no evidence to so far indicate that it isn't objective like uranium, and there's his specific quote saying that. Yet you say that he was actually in error in saying that (some folks fanwank it by saying Bakker's a philosopher and doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, you say he made an error and misspoke, whatever) but wouldn't it be easier to just think that he knows what he's talking about?

That a person like Bakker, who understands the use of language and meaning much better than many authors, would use the word he meant because he meant it the way he explained?

[Happy Ent]

That a person like Bakker, who understands the use of language and meaning much better than many authors, would use the word he meant because he meant it the way he explained?

Smarter men than him have used misleading examples.

The identity of the president is not up for debate. Neither is the atomic weight of uranium. Nor the reality of damnation in Eärwa.

The reality of damnation in our world is a subject for debate.

[Piper]

I reckon now that Nau-Cayuti was the sole soul (ha!) comprising the No-God (how that ties in with the long line leading to the golden room, I don't know). And my magic prediction hat is telling me Kayutas will fill the same role in the second apocalypse out of pure symnmetry.

Hhmmm, or Kayutas' name is a red herring. Perhaps its Sorweel, the favored son of a dying/dead dynasty (for symmetry's sake). Kel and his Dunyain brood are aware, but unworried, that he is favored by Yatwar because Yatwar's designs can't anticipate the No-God, including her champion's assimilation into it.

Still, has to deal with the rest of the people who seemed destined for the God Room. Maybe they have to find the right soul, and that dream was of the auditions? (Assuming Akka's new dreams aren't Kellhus influenced, of course.)

[lokisnow]

btw, the chorae that Sorweel received, it's an Anasurimbor family chorae, presumably from one of the fallen kings. presumably from the king that had a dispute with Celmo and left the original Great Ordeal. I wonder if that particular chorae will come to be significant.

I thought of another question I wish I had asked bakker before Pat sent the questions. Mimara sees her chorae as inward and Kosotor's as outward in the end of The Judging Eye. Is that a normal chorae variation, and can anyone other than one with the Judging Eye discern such a difference?

[Sebastian]

We must beware confirmation bias, lest we all become one with Nerdanel. :)

Speaking of Nerdanel... Could Moenghus pretending to die drowning be foreshadowing of (the other) Moenghus' fake death? :)

[Kalbear]

Smarter men than him have used misleading examples.

The identity of the president is not up for debate. Neither is the atomic weight of uranium. Nor the reality of damnation in Eärwa.

The reality of damnation in our world is a subject for debate.

This is so funny to me.

HE, you realize that you're falling into reader bias, right? That there is specific, well-used evidence that combats your claims and you rationalize it away because you think your argument is better. That you exaggerate the evidence that supports your view and denigrate the messages from the author as well as other information in the book.

What would Bakker say about that, I wonder?

This argument actually reminds me of the Bakker and women argument, where so many people were sure that he was just doing something that was realistic despite all the evidence that made it unrealistic. It took Bakker specifically stating that he did something to make a point. And even then I think some folks wanted to believe otherwise. What will it take you heretics to believe, now?

[MisterGuyMan]

I wonder if Kellhus' goal is to use the No-God against the Gods, rather than against Earwa. I wonder if he intends to resurrect the No-God, but to resurrect him in the outside, and use it to wage war against the Gods themselves. There's something very Greek/Zeus about such an idea...

I like this idea. That plan would undeniably be a product of Kellhus seeing farther with TTT than anyone anticipated. The No-God itself becomes a tool.

On a separate note, has reincarnation been addressed either way?

[Happy Ent]

HE, you realize that you're falling into reader bias, right?

Sure!