The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[TakLoufer]

Sort of throwing this out here, but did anyone ever notice in TJE that Esmi didn't really start looking for Mimara until after Theli was born? I get the impression that if Kayutas and Theli had been born normal (or faked it like Kelmomas), then Mimara would probably still be in the brothel. :frown5:

[lokisnow]

I, for one, am really looking forward to reading Nerdanel's elaborate explanation of why Meppa=Moenghus.

I'm also looking forward to the LOTR=Earwa guy's explanation of why Meppa=Gandalf-the-White.

*waits*

(that's not sarcasm, I really do think both will be fascinating reads, I wish Nerdanel would hurry up and finish the book so we can hear more about Moenghus. :))

[Madness]

Fuck.

Sometimes, it's absolutely amazing to see ignorance everywhere.

I have other things I'd like to add to this debate, just settling from a move, change in experience and such but only got one thing for now.

Both Moenghus and Cnaiur have scarred arms a la Scylvendi. Moenghus did it to travel unmolested through Scylvendi lands. Cnaiur ... He's just the most violent of all men :D. God, I miss Cnaiur.

Does Meppa have ritual scarred arms in the Scylvendi fashion?

I'm still going with my theory that Meppa is a character who was one of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim and that as a character device, Bakker will use Meppa to explain more of what Moenghus was doing for thirty years.

CNAIUR!!!!!!

[jurble]

I like this idea. That plan would undeniably be a product of Kellhus seeing farther with TTT than anyone anticipated. The No-God itself becomes a tool.

On a separate note, has reincarnation been addressed either way?

Not that I recall, but I think it should be possible so long as a soul doesn't totally dissolve into the madness of the Outside. We're told that Seswatha burns strongly in Achamian, so while he may not be a reincarnation, Seswatha's soul on the Otherside may have noticed an affinity with him, or even there's some sort of unconcious soul-resonance going on, like souls have angular frequency, and Seswatha is resonating with Achamian's.

[Kalbear]

So we've talked about the causal loop and what that does to the Dunyain theory, right? That either the causal loop is anaethema to a Dunyain if they're not a part of it or is their goal if they are part of it.

And now we've seen two direct causal loops - WLW and Mimara. Both are because of the God.

We also know Bakker's love of Dune.

I think covering all these things that Kellhus' goal is to kill the god and break the causal loop for them while creating it for him. I also think that the No-God and the Judging eye are linked; it is too odd a coincidence that Mimara's JE and her fetus being stillborn, and this goes well with the notion that the No-God is unable to have a causal link (and thus severs all causal links).

[Madness]

Question.

I'm rereading WLW for the first time now but doesn't Achamian tell Mimira her baby will be stillborn but then later reminisces that he lied to her about this and the actuality of her birth would be worse?

Also, if Mimira is pregnant with Achamian's baby, what does that mean for Achamian and his Dreams? Is the Qirri related to any of those things either?

EDIT: Concerning White-Luck Warrior - what comes after determines what comes before, whereas for the Dunyain what comes before determines what comes after. Can't both of these things descriptively exist simultaneously without canceling each other out?

[jurble]

What Comes After Determines What Comes Before = Magic.

What Comes Before Determines What Comes After = Determinism.

One of these two things are actually real. Well, in a perfectly deterministic universe, I suppose knowing what happens in the future, you can predict the past. But that implies the future has already happened, or only one set future, which is magic. Even IRL, the future can't predict the past because the universe isn't deterministic, it's mostly deterministic, with a dash of probabilistic shit thrown in. In fact, there's multiple futures for many events. If multiple-world theory is correct, all these seperate futures exist simultaneously, if copenhagen convention shit is correct, the universe just picks a future. But there is no perfectly deterministic future.

That is to say, both the Gods and the Dunyain are wrong, if the world they were in, were our world. In their world, no idea.

[Madness]

It's not so simplistic.

I agree with the determinism part as a guiding description of what comes before determines what comes after. In the case of what comes after determining what comes before, however, I don't necessarily think it refutes the determinism principle.

Think of seeing time as a whole, like the Gods allegedly do. All events happen in the perfect synchronicity of a story already told, except those events which have happened, do happen, and will happen, all exist because of and are moved by random (and in Kellhus' or Dunyain case, not so random) determinism.

So White-Luck Warrior could still walk the perfect line of synchronicities and what he sees will come to pass inevitable but Kellhus' TTT could still be a legitimate description of what will come to pass and it will all follow the line of deterministic cause and effect.

So?

[Calibandar]

Well, just finished. I would be lying if I said I was anything but extremely disappointed with this book. I have not read the 600 posts before me but will do so later this evening, and see what everyone else made of it. But these are my first impressions.

I have many gripes. The endings of this book irritated me immensely. It feels to me that this book was too much for Bakker, that the promise of the lead-in volume that was the Judging Eye, could not be fulfilled. Instead of feeling the sense of awe that Bakker promised several times, and instead of feeling "that this is the book which will show the greater stakes", I end up feeling quite strongly that Emperor Bakker has no clothes.

Gripes:

1) Cleric's storyline.

I was extremely disappointed to find that in the end, he had his highlight in TJE's Cil Aujas scene. Not once did he approach that sense of awe in this book. The early chapters have him and Achamian burning some companies of Sranc. Well, we already knew sorcerers could do that. We keep hearing again and again how he needs to remember, needs trauma, after about 10 repetitions I got damned tired of it. Finding out he was Nil'giccas did not surprise me in the least, since we had Cleric pegged as either that or Nin-Ciljiras, who we now hear nothing about, so either Nin-Ciljiras appears in the third book, or Bakker made an error in the TTT glossary.

But really, the heart of my complaint is this. After all this build-up of the ancient, angelic Nonman King, who you cannot but hope that he will join the side against the Consult, he dies? And he dies a meaningless, accidental death caused by the greatest whiner in the series, the character who you hope at every turn will get his head kicked in? I dislike Achamian, I resent the fact that he is still in this series because he is so incredibly unsympathetic and I am sick of his consistent feeling oh so sorry for himself. I understand that Achamian wants Nil'giccas to remember who he is and get him on their side, but then Bakker pulls off this ignominious death? WTF? Is it original? Maybe. Did it surprise me? Yes, I guess, I had not expected Bakker to be this lame. It feels as if he came to the end of book two and simply didn't know how to deal with the character, so this is how it ends. Meaningless and disappointing, I was hoping for so much more from Cleric in book 3, as well as in this one.

2) The whole slog storyline.

Depressing what happened with Cleric, very poorly handled by Bakker. But the whole slog storyline...This book is 160 pages longer than TJE, but I have to say that a good deal seems to come from the fact Bakker has renewed his tendency to go on and on with his endless interior monologues. When I look at the Slog chapters all together, there is *so much* interior drama and doubting, first from Mimara, then from Achamian and God forbid we then move to Momemn to face more ramblings from the endlessly silly Esmenet, chosen by Kellhus for nothing more than her womb surely, because there is sign at any point of an above average intellect.

The whole section in the Mop was underwhelming. Some vague references to sentient trees, but nothing really happened with them so how is that interesting? Encountering the Hags, killing some Sranc, running into more ruins. That pretty much encapsulates the entire storyline from start to finish. It got to be exhausting, with the Nau Cayuti dreams as a small reprieve.

And then we end with Smaug on a pile of gold. Booorrrring. The fight between Akka, Cleric and Wutteat was poorly described and hard to empathize with. The Captain dies a meaningless and deeply disappointing death. Sarl continues to rave and the rest of the rapists get killed. Yippee.

I left all of this with a consistent feeling of "really Bakker, that's it?"

3) Maithanet.

I kept hoping he wouldn't be killed. Along with Achamian, no character bored or annoyed me more in the first trilogy than Esmenet. And when I heard there would be big characters dying in WLW, I hoped Esmenet and Achamian would be the ones. Maithanet was one of the very few characters remaining in Momemn who spoke sense and was interesting to read aout. Of course he gets killed by the Idiot Empress.

Whenever Esmenet's monologues began, this deep urge to skim read came over me, as it always has, but even more in this book. Can she do nothing else but doubt, feel guilt, doubt, whine, and then always make the wrong decision. No wonder many in the Three Seas wonder why the Holy Aspect Emperor chose this whore, so did I.

I understand I am meant to feel bad for Maithanet, that this is how Bakker designed it. He has been constantly aggrieved, misjudged by his lessers, and he was the only hope for the New Empire to remain standing against the enemies now aligning before them. He is Kellhus' half brother, an interesting character fromn the start. Now he is dead and he leaves a void in the series. This leaves Esmenet alone with her useless cronies( Oh yes, and the titular character. Don't blink or you miss him). It can only go worse from here for the New Empire, but there are no characters left to root for whatsoever. Killing Maithanet empties the jug for me. If everyone there dies and the Empire topples, I would not care one bit. I doubt that is the desired reader effect.

4)General disappointment with the book.

It is absolutely true that I enjoyed reading it for good parts, that I was deeply invested in seeing hoe the story would continue. And yet, in many of the chapters things did not go as I had hoped, and rather than surprise me positively, it all fell down. There is very little of the sense of awe. There is very little in the way of interesting revelations. The closer we get to end of the series, the less we see of the Consult, unlike the more we had been promised. Maybe book 3 will remedy that, you'd think so. But they were absent so much here. Pretty much nothing with Aurax or Aurang, or any of the other ranking members. We've seen the Bashrag and Sranc Scott, we know what they can do. But where is the revelation promised in WLW about how this book show us how the stakes have changed? We already knew from TJE that the Inchoroi had come from the Void to Earwa to shut the world, it says so specifically, nothing new. Really, what has changed? As interesting as the excerpt with Achamian dreaming about the Sauglish ruins was, so boring was the actual Sauglish chapter in the book, where we encounter ruins and a hoary old dragon who ends up flying away. And nothing new about the No-God in this book either. Perhaps Scott simply has nothing to report. Oh yeah, he is seen as the Black Heavens. Ok.

5 ( and last): Nonmen, Kellhus, ruins, and Ishual.

Disappointments on all fronts I have to say. To learn that even the last holdout of Nonmen, Ishterebinth, has sided with Golgotterath, that is a disappointing blow. As if the odds in this tale werent's stacked high enough in the Consult's favour, we now learn that all the remaining Nonmen Ishroi are on their side, whilst their King gets killed by accident. Mekeritrig is on their side, as are a hundred Nonmen who are already spotted with the Great Horde ( yet Scott never shows them in action, sadly). Ok, how can this possibly succeed? Only by Bakker doing a u-turn and suspending disbelief, I fear to say. With the Nonmen Quya on their side they might have had a chance. If they are not, Bakker will have to pull an Erikson and start levelling characters up D&D style in order for the Ordeal to succeed. All the Quya have turned Erratic and joined the Consult, says Nil'Giccas.

Kellhus. When do we finally get to see him in action? It's nice that we get some short chats between him and Proyas, and really, I understand full well why Kellhus cannot be a POV anymore. But how about showing us some more of what can now do after having mastered the Gnosis. There is one paragraph in the whole book that has him sparkling a blue brilliant light, saving the Army of the South from the Horde. That was fun. But that was it. Treat us a little bit Scott.

Ruins. Is it just me or did anyone else find themselves reading this book and hoping that they could read the tale of the First Apocalypse instead? I got so tired of reading those descriptions of ruins of the ancient North. It's all the same to me, and very little imagery was sparked. Would have been great to see Tryse, Kelmaol or Saugish when it was in it's prime. Not so great to keep reading over and over about how all if it's overgrown with moss. Sorry.

Finally, Ishual. Hard to see how one can be anything but disappointed as Achamian's entire storyline from the start of TJE has been about finding the Dunyain. I guess the most disappointing thing for a reader to get, would be to arrive at Ishual and find it dead. So in line with Cleric's depressing ending, that is exactly what Bakker has to offer.

Scowl. Again that sense of "really Scott, that's it?". Why not have the Dunyain on the Consult's side as well, stack the deck even more?

Really, after all this searching and trekking, how is this in any way a rewarding or satisfying ending for the reader? I understand it is bad news for Akka and Mimara, but what can the reader take from this except for a deep sense of underwhelming?

So, anything I liked?

I liked Inralatas development a lot. I thought his scene with Maithanet was easily the best in the 600 page book.

The Momemn chapters as a whole were reasonably engaging, except when Esmenent started getting emo again.

The Great Ordeal chapters on the whole were fairly good. Not great, certainly not, but Sorweel improved as a character, though it's clear that Bakker's " will he trust Kellhus or not" schtick is getting very old, very soon, since Sorweel is questioning himself with that again and again.

We know he will side with Kellhus, Bakker, move on already.

Hard to think of much more. It was a compelling book for the grandeur of it's overal Second Apocalypse storyline, but how Bakker chose to fill in that storyline, and especially the resolutions of some characters (and the sheer absence of others) , that was very, very poor. And it doesn't seem to me that we have learned much at all.

Weakest Bakker book by a mile. Does the Emperor have no clothes, or will Unholy Consult assuage all my fears? Will that book have something, a character or an event, that I *will* be awed by?

[jurble]

It's not so simplistic.

I agree with the determinism part as a guiding description of what comes before determines what comes after. In the case of what comes after determining what comes before, however, I don't necessarily think it refutes the determinism principle.

Think of seeing time as a whole, like the Gods allegedly do. All events happen in the perfect synchronicity of a story already told, except those events which have happened, do happen, and will happen, all exist because of and are moved by random (and in Kellhus' or Dunyain case, not so random) determinism.

So White-Luck Warrior could still walk the perfect line of synchronicities and what he sees will come to pass inevitable but Kellhus' TTT could still be a legitimate description of what will come to pass and it will all follow the line of deterministic cause and effect.

So?

Except, the White-Luck is everything that can go right does go right. That's how he functions, against all probability, the most inane circumstances will occur, because that's the definition of White-Luck. Everything he does, is a probability-defying gift. The Dunyain Probability Trance is based on assuming the least probable things don't occur. The White-Luck is based on the fact that the least probable will occur. We're explained this by Meppa, or Maithanet, I think. It's like, it's entirely possible for a lightning strike, if it had enough energy I suppose, to break the bonds in a tree, and rearrange them in a fashion that leads to a chocolate cake. But it's 1x10^-bazillion that it'll actually happen. So, a Dunyain would not take it into account during the Probability Trance.

But the White-Luck IS that, his every step is the least-likely, it's a Gift.

[Madness]

Think about it. It's the least likely probability all the way. That is still statistically possible. The White-Luck Warrior walks synchronicities.

[jurble]

But probabilities are multiplied when they occur in succession, and those 1/1,000,000 chances happening in succession 1/1,000,000^X trend towards 1/infinity = 0.

[Calibandar]

Hey Trisk,

Iam still very curious about the direction of where things are heading, believe you me. The Nonmen have become a major wildcard. So are the Dunyain, it is hard to believe that they have actually been killed. We can speculate that it was all ruined by the Consult, or by Kellhus. But we won't know. I think they are too big a player for Bakker to just remove them from the story though, and Akka's trek would make no sense at all if the Dunyain don't play some role of sorts. Enigmatic.

I think that the Nonmen of Ishterebinth may be sincere in that they will potentially back the Ordeal.

I am now going through the posts from everyone, so maybe this has been elaborated on, but why would you think so?

[Madness]

Skafra, do you not still describe a probable outcome?

EDIT: A number of possibilities concerning the Nonman.

- It is likely that Nin'Ciljiras is ruling in Nil'giccas stead.

- That the many of Ishterebinth's Intact are in fact Erratic.

- That many of the Erratics have allegiances to the Consult.

- That there are a remaining number of Intact.

[nonman_erratic]

Fuck..

Both Moenghus and Cnaiur have scarred arms a la Scylvendi. Moenghus did it to travel unmolested through Scylvendi lands. Cnaiur ... He's just the most violent of all men :D. God, I miss Cnaiur.

I'm still going with my theory that Meppa is a character who was one of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim and that as a character device, Bakker will use Meppa to explain more of what Moenghus was doing for thirty years.

CNAIUR!!!!!!

We don't get a description of Meppa's arms.

I like your possessor of the third sight/Moenghus Sr sect theory of Meppa.

Sometimes during sex, if it turns out it's that time of the month for her and there's blood, I think to myself, "I am Cnaiur urs Skiotha, most violent of all men," and smile.

I miss Cnaiur, too.

There are so many Bakker quotes that go through my head daily. I fucking love these books.

[Finn]

With Meppa and Cleric (and Erratics in general), Bakker seems interested in exploring the relation of memory and identity. I wonder if he's paving the way for this being a major plot point.

One of the issues I've had with the Dunyain mission is that it's fundamentally paradoxical. To become a self-moving soul having conquered the darkness that comes before would be to accomplish the mission, but the mission itself is then the darkness that comes before. In other words, to succeed is to fulfill a plan that predates and defines your existence.

The only way to do it would be to somehow put yourself in the position to be this self-moving soul AND lose the mission, lose the desire or drive that leads you to achieve this thing. You have to ascend the ladder and then kick the ladder away. One way to accomplish this might be to arrange for your own identity/memory to be wiped.

This all leads me back to "What do you see?" The No-God seems to embody some sort of metaphysical loophole, outside the otherwise all-comprehensive vision of the gods. If Kelhus can position himself as (or within) this loophole and *at the same time* arrange to forget who he was, will he have become a self-moving soul?

Cleric's sermon about "becoming" at the end of WLW reminded me of the Dunyain mission. It is only in losing yourself that you can attain a state of pure becoming. When Akka pointed out the paradox to him he only laughed, seeming to admit that this was a paradoxical state. (It should be said that Cleric's position seems more complicated as he's desperately trying to remember and celebrating forgetting all at once - as Akka points out).

I also thought it was interesting that paradox came up as that which only souled-creatures can comprehend. Perhaps comprehending paradoxes is for lesser souls and somehow becoming a paradox is for greater.

[Madness]

Lol @ nonman_erratic.

[gladius]

The nonmen of Ishterebinth are either hedging their bets, or planing to betray the Ordeal in a memorable way.

[lokisnow]

I completely disagree with just about all your criticisms. This line about Sorweel struck me though.

The Great Ordeal chapters on the whole were fairly good. Not great, certainly not, but Sorweel improved as a character, though it's clear that Bakker's " will he trust Kellhus or not" schtick is getting very old, very soon, since Sorweel is questioning himself with that again and again.

We know he will side with Kellhus, Bakker, move on already.

We don't know that.

It could very well be that Yatwer caused Sorweel to wake up. Yatwer may be clever enough to know that Sorweel was wavering (particularly as Serwa was conditioning him with the talks she was giving him). Yatwer may also be clever enough to know the best way to harden Sorweel's heart against all Anasurimbor forever. What better way to wrong a virgin teenage boy than with sex. And I feel that sex and carnality wold be Yatwer's weapon of choice to use on Sorweel, to harden his heart and to further make him her's.

In such an instance, Sorweel could see the truth of Kellhus' Ordeal with his own eyes and still turn against Kellhus. Kellhus could be battling Aurax one on one and Sorweel may still choose to attack Kellhus with his stealth chorae and kill him. Sorweel will make the choice that will best assuage and protect his own ego, that will feel like the greatest "right" to his own internal sense of I-have-been-wronged! And that right may conflict with what is right for the world.

In fact two of your big criticisms of the deaths in this book were exactly this sort, they died because of selfish decisions rather than for the good of the world. It would have been best for the world if Cleric sided with the Ordeal but he chose the selfish and memorable path. It would have been best for the world for Maithanet to competently manage the empire after the coup ousting Esmenet, but Esme chose the selfish path that protected her own internal sense of identity and rightness. We are seeing the fallibilities of mortals play out on a worldly stage, and each further failing seems to condemn the world more.

--

There has been some conversation about Wutteat. I recall in PON that wracu were described as having Iron or steel skin, and in light of TTT appendix, I had pretty much figured that Wracu were flying machines, not organic like Sranc and Bashrag. In light of what we've learned from TJE and WLW I wonder if Wracu split the difference. I wonder if they're sort of like thopters from Dune--organic machines. Wutteat could very well be driven not by consciousness but by an AI. He could very well have been capable of constructing more wracu, rather than fathering them (and note how there is a Father of dragons, but never any mention of a mother). Also Wutteat's neck was broken again. Cleric refers to him as a dead thing, but from our perspective he is pretty alive. Perhaps he never was alive in the sense that souled creatures are alive. Remember that Wutteat's neck was broken the first time during the battle of Pir Pahil (iirc) which was the battle when NJJ killed CC. Organic things don't typically survive a broken neck, much less two.

I have to wonder about Nil'Giccas and Wutteat both appearing in the world again, so to speak, after being not apart of it for so many millenium. I wonder if the whore moves in mysterious ways, and they are pieces she is playing (rather than Kellhus' pieces or the Consult's pieces).

Look at the Slog. Akka is the whore's piece, Kosotor is Kellhus' piece, Soma is the Consult's piece, Cleric was found like a gold piece on the ground and Mimara is? kellhus' or the whore's or The God's? But I think we're seeing three factions at work on the slog, which is why they wound up together, not because the grand design of Kellhus or the Consult.

Mimara is kind of the center of it all, isn't she? Wouldn't it be ironic if after all the flak Bakker has taken that Mimara has always been intended to be the whore who saves the world? Taking the low and elevating her to the most high of high levels. Rather than just being along for the ride, ala Esme, Mimara will be taking actions and having indpendent agency in fulfilling her destiny. It will be the flawed and fallen woman who is the world's salvation and greatest hope. It won't be the uber-perfect Ninja Gandalf Jesus Kellhus who saves the world, it will be a common whore. How dare Bakker make her a whore, he could just as easily have used a noble woman or a merchant woman, that would be more tasteful, and wouldn't at all change the literary meanings of her role, would it. ;)

The nonmen of Ishterebinth are either hedging their bets, or planing to betray the Consult in a memorable way.

fixed that for you, it could easily be the Consult who will be betrayed.

[jurble]

Dragons aren't robots, HIS SCALES ARE BRONZE AND HIS BONES ARE IRON -> some sort of organo-metallic matrix shit going on. Wutteat is still able to move and shit because he is UNDEAD, seriously. That wasn't a turn of phrase. Wutteat is dead. His neck is bronze, his muscles have detached from his skeleton, his head was smashed to bits by Akka and Cleric. He survives only because he has become so damned, somehow, that he has become like the Wight in the Mountain.