The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)

[Madness]

I wonder, lockesnow, if you've stumbled upon a truly novel thought concerning this series.

We're getting damn close to having nanomachines in the real world, which, among other things, will have the ability to manipulate biological behavior.

Perhaps the No-God is simply an AI. We've fleshed out the whole metaphysical or supernatural theories concerning the No-God but I wonder if it could be more technological then anything else. In this way, Bakker might explore the philosophic controversies surrounding machine and biological intelligences and transhumanism.

Following this vein of thought, Wracu could be older versions of evolving scientific understanding on the Inchoroi's part.

This seems almost Nerdanel to me but I thought I'd mention it.

Btw, I just wanted to refute whomever said Gilgaol wouldn't favor Kosoter. According to TTT Appendix, Gilgaol wants followers who don't seek his favor but continue to serve His philosophies in Earwa. Kosoter and Cnaiur were perfect candidates. Cnaiur could actually make a reappearance in this story if he's dead and Gilgaol shelters him in the Outside.

EDIT: I'm not necessarily advocating the above before the Btw. I do think that most people read Wutteat as being truly undead in some Tekne fashion.

[nonman_erratic]

I wonder, lockesnow, if you've stumbled upon a truly novel thought concerning this series.

We're getting damn close to having nanomachines in the real world, which, among other things, will have the ability to manipulate biological behavior.

I've suspected that the mechanism whereby the inchoroi made the nonmen immortal was via some kind of nanotechnology.

[Madness]

Sure. I was more suggesting the novelty of the No-God being entirely a machine intelligence, which instead of ensouling the creatures of the Tekne, utilizes them the way the US military uses drones.

Obviously, this discussion is limited because we see the Consult's Tekne through the comprehensive framework of Earwa's indigenous humans. A sufficiently advanced technology always appears as magic or supernatural.

EDIT: I don't know what the etiquette is but I thought not to double post.

I feel I need to dump my thoughts as they come rather than trying to address everything in single posts, though that does work to sharpen my understanding of the books.

So, re-reading WLW.

Mimira has a dream about Kellhus that may or may not be a memory. The passage seems to suggest that he said to her "You are the eye that offends, Mimira. The eye that must be plucked."

Thoughts?

Also, someone mentioned a quote that is really illuminating but was misquoted. It's from one of Bakker's interviews post-TWP:

The dominant tradition in mainstream literature is to depict protagonists stranded in a potentially meaningless world trying to find some kind of compensatory meaning – usually through some conception of ‘love.’ You’ve literally seen this pattern countless times. Kellhus offered me an opportunity to turn this model on its head. What makes fantasy distinct is that the worlds depicted tend to be indisputably meaningful – in a sense that’s what makes them fantastic! I thought to myself, what would a story of a protagonist stranded in a meaningful world struggling to hold onto meaninglessness look like?

My bolding.

[Happy Ent]

Perhaps the No-God is simply an AI.

But is not this Thorsten's position on the three seas forum?

The core of the No-God is some creation of both Tekne and sorcery, presumably some kind of computing core, which can support a superconsciousness. (3 seas forum)

Or is there more to "simply"?

What I have no opinion about is to what extent the No-God includes or requires souls. We have a few hints that its creation requires lots of people to die in terrible ways, but beyond that I have no idea.

--

Regarding Wutteät's status there are two relevant quotes at the opening of Chapter Fifteen, The Library of Sauglish, about souls and life. For example, "Yet the soul lingers, like a second smell, [..] lest it sink and drown in Hell." I take that to indicate that Wutteät does indeed have a soul.

As to whether he is a construct or not? Hm… we know that it is difficult to bind souls to artefacts of the Tekne, though it can be done. (A skin spy among the Mandati.) So maybe the dragons are machines to which souls are bound, and the absence of "fresh" dragons is explained by the deteriorating technological proficiency of the remaining Inchoroi. They simply can't make more dragons like that.

On the other hand, Wutteät is old. Really old. He's been travelling, in whatever form, with the Inchoroi for a long time. If the Inchoroi can build dragons, why travel with them? Also, the dragons are clearly intelligent, but we don't recognise in them the control mechanisms built into the other Inchoroi species. They display a remarkable absence of lechery.

So, until further evidence, I will think of them as just some alien species, discovered many planets ago by the space trekking Inchoroi (oh, I feel a parody coming up: "It's life, Sil, but not as we know it"), and brought along on their extermination campaign as useful weapons or mounts.

[Calibandar]

Trisk

Let me ask you a question? What makes you think that they are insincere?

I think it's possible that they know that they could be the difference, and they just want to be on the winning side. Maybe they never believed that they'd see something such as the Ordeal and they never imagined that one such as Kellhus could exist, but now he and his Ordeal have their attention?

I thought the Embassy came across quite sincere. The one thing that strikes me as suspicious is that they claim to come on behalf of Nil'Giccas, and then afterwards even say they come bearing the Aspect Emperor Nil'giccas' greetings. Since Nil'giccas is no longer ruling in Ishterebinth, and since Nil'giccas claims to Achamian that all the Nonmen there have turned to Min-Uroikas, that seems to be untrue. It seems Nin-Ciljiras is the ruler there now, and we know that Bakker said on the Three Seas forum that he becomes a character in "Aspect Emperor".

There are many options of course. If the Embassy is for real, then Kellhus would presumably get Ishterebinth's full support. Unless there are still those that have sided with the Consult. He could also be fooled entirely, in which case he is doomed.

I guess what we have to establish is:

a) Can Kellhus read the Nonman's faces to such an extent that he would see it if they intend to betray him?

B) Is Kellhus aware of the fact that Cleric was Nil'Giccas and was that the reason that he had Kosoter prowling around?

I guess that where this is heading is that the Nonmen may still be undecided, or, they have chosen for the Consult as Nil'giccas says, but they could still be swayed now that the Great Ordeal has actually materialized. Maybe it is something Sorweel will do. Maybe it will be Serwa's doing ( I still like Latan's theory that her Anasurimbor blood could perhaps allow her to carry a Nonman child, who knows).

Strategically anyway, it seems the deck would be stacked far too much in the Consult's favour if all the remaining Nonman of Istherebinth would ally with them as well. It wouldn't be just disappointing as far as I'm concerned, but the Consult already has plenty of Erratics as it is. Sorweel is an important POV in this tale and it seems unlikely he would be whisked away to Ishterebinth if nothing surprising would be happening there.

I was hoping for a Nil'giccas vs Mekeritrig confrontation at some point, so his meaningless death depresses me.

Madness:

Mimira has a dream about Kellhus that may or may not be a memory. The passage seems to suggest that he said to her "You are the eye that offends, Mimira. The eye that must be plucked."

Thoughts?

I thought that was a remarkable little bit as well. We know now that Mimara has seen little of Kellhus when she was back at the Andiamine heights, and we know she has never seen him with the Judging Eye. But this quote tells us that Kellhus, as is his wont, has seen deep inside her and seen the truth of her. And clearly, Kellhus did not like what he saw. In addition to that we have been told that whereas Kellhus insisted that Serwa be trained as a witch at the age of 3, he let Esmenet have full control over Mimara's fate. In general Kellhus seems to have paid Mimara little attention and did not desire her to be trained in the Gnosis, despite being of the Few. He has seen the truth of her though, so maybe he is in some way responsible for her going to Achamian.

[Calibandar]

Some replies to older posts:

Brennan:

I really would like to know what the hell did NaCu do to his wife for her to set him up like that. What a crappy way to go out man, death march into the heart of The Ark. Does Akka dreaming about him make it legit that he was Seswatha's son?

Ieva is saying that Nau Cayuti had a mistress and that this mistress will hate hearing that Nau Cayuti died in his wife's ( Ieva's) arms. If I read it right, it seems she fed him something that didn't actually kill him, but he was put in a coffin, and then next he knows is taken out of that coffin in the heart of Golgotterath where Aurang stands tall over him. Did I get that right?

As to whether that means Nau Cayuti is Seswatha's son, it seems that way, but we still haven't had full confirmation on it.

Trisk:

They've taken Iothiah, no small feat, and they have Meppa, but it's implied that Meppa is the only Cishaurim left

Well it's more than implied, it is outright stated that Meppa is the last of the Cishaurim. Could Moengus have survived? Bakker is writing it in such a way that he knows we will be speculating, feeding us even more by stating that Meppa does not recall his own past. Of course, Meppa could just as well be a new character. But it would be very interesting if he is Moenghus. If he is though, then Kellhus would have failed to kill him, and that was Kellhus' goal. Kellhus does not tend to fail, so maybe chances are bigger that Meppa is just the last Cisahaurim, but not Moenghus.

Nonmen Erratic

Clearly the skin spies were placed near Akka by Kellhus. Sarl claims they found Cleric, "like a coin in the mud!" I highly doubt that was mere coincidence. The obvious is that Kellhus found Nil'Giccas first, and placed him with the Skin Eaters. But where did Kellhus find him? Wandering somewhere? Perhaps he found him in the Outside? Or perhaps the consult placed him somewhere where Kellhus would find him (Soma was clearly a skin spy in place to watch Nil'Giccas

What is unclear to me is that, while, we can take from Sarl that Kosoter was placed near Akka, it's unclear if Kellhus knew at any point about Cleric, let alone that he placed the company there to run into Cleric. From the quote provided about Soma and the Old Father, it does seem like the Consult know who Cleric is though, and Soma was sent to watch Cleric.

[lokisnow]

can anyone post a page number or a quote of the mimara/kell dream?

it's a dream, so it could be Mimara dreaming Kell saying something that Kelmo actually said. It could be Mimara dreaming about a piece of scripture she always feared (plucking out the eye that offends) and associated it with Kell in the dream.

However it is probably as the dream happened. It seems we can somewhat trust dreams in Bakkerverse, they tend to be intrinsically meaningful, so to speak. :)

Crackpot, considering the WLW perception of time. What if Earwa is important to the Inchoroi, as a 'special' world because eventually kellhus would occur on that world which would allow meaningfulness to be erased, ending damnation not just on Earwa, but throughout the universe. :-p Kellhus brings about the promised land, the natural world, ordered by laws and properties of nature.

A lot of the classic epics have interesting tropes in common. One that has always fascinated me (see what I did there, finding confirmation in Bakker's work in order to horn in some pet trivia of my own). Is the "cultural founder sees vision of glorious future of his heir on/near his death." for example, Aeneus, the founder of Rome, sees that all his sacrifices do have meaning, because it will result in the great emperors of Rome, including Julius Caesar. In Orlando Furioso, Ruggiero sees the great things of the d'Este family (the patrons who commissioned Ariosto to write it, lol). In Paradise Lost, Adam sees that though the fall of man condemsn the human race to tremendous suffering, that man will be redeemed by the coming of Christ. So clearly I'm sort of slotting in the Celmomian Prophecy in such a moment. Celmo sees his descendent coming back and redeeming mankind's eternal suffering/torment at the hands of Gods, Inchoroi, Cunoroi and Men by ending the world. Kellhus ends the world as we understand Earwa, he offers salvation in a way, but he does it by promising there is no heaven, but neither is there a hell. That's also an interesting inversion on Jesus I think Bakker would like, Jesus saving souls by guaranteeing there is no heaven. hah.

It's not entirely self indulgent to say so, I see lots of influences of The Aeneid and other such Poems in Bakker's writing, particularly in the epic cataloging, and histories parts of the story.

--

Side thought. The best place to hide something is in plain sight. What's been in plain sight for the entire series but despite the revelations we've had about gods and the outside, we never really bring up how that might change our understandings. I mentioned above that there are players of the game with pieces on the board the position, Kell, Consult, Yatwer, the God, etc.

What about Seswatha? Is Seswatha a major and active player in the Game and it only seems that he has a more passive role because he is hiding in plain sight.

So much of Akka's entire journey is controlled and conditioned by Seswatha's dreams, I think Seswatha has more agency than we've ever given him credence.

[Calibandar]

Madness:

Agreed that the WLW is the assasin that kills Maithanet, this seemed quite obvious to me.

Meppa and Fanayal, I believe, are the Solitary God's champions, the Pshuke's Holy Water an unelaborated phenomenon

I still find their role hard to say. It continues to fascinate that the Psukhe leaves no Mark, in other words, it is in accordance with God's vision. But you could say that Kellhus is another champion of the God of Gods as well, not just the Fanim.

Agreed that the White Luck Warrior is the Knight/ Representative of all the Hundred Gods, not just Yatwer. It seemed he was Yatwer's in TJE, but I think this book shows us he represents all of them.

I think it is quite clear by now that the secret voice in Kelmomas is actually Sammi, just like the ancient Anasurimbor Celmomas also had his dead sibling's voice inside of him. I think the voice is even called Sammi at some point.

A perspective in White-Luck Warrior refers to some of the Nonman as the Intact. This will be important.

Really? I have missed that, where are The Intact mentioned?

Also, Nin'Ciljiras probably rules in Ishterebinth and the Nin clan still seems to suffer some allegiance to the Consult.

I don't think we know this. Nin-Ciljiras may not be related in any way to Nin'janin. From PON, it actually seems as if he is not on the Consult's side, and that they require spies on him. He could be on their side, we just don't know. But if he is the ruler in Ishterebinth now, then why does the Embassay say it comes on behalf of Nil'Giccas?

[delete this account pls]

I'm not so sure the destruction of the Army of the South was something Kellhus intended or planned for. It's a hell of a hit to take to convince the rest of the Ordeal to start chowing down on Sranc, or to act as a lesson. He's lost one School, had another (his most powerful no less) mauled and a quarter of his strength is now gone. There's also the near destruction of the Army of the Middle North to consider. They were saved by the skin of their teeth, and I don't see how Kell could have planned for that.

ETA; Definitely not ruling out the possibility of course. it does seem awful convenient that the one Army that probably contains his least fervent supporters (for Fanim and Nilnameshi) is the one to get hit.

[jurble]

What is unclear to me is that, while, we can take from Sarl that Kosoter was placed near Akka, it's unclear if Kellhus knew at any point about Cleric, let alone that he placed the company there to run into Cleric. From the quote provided about Soma and the Old Father, it does seem like the Consult know who Cleric is though, and Soma was sent to watch Cleric.

He certainly knows, Cleric was with Kosoter when the Imperial servant, whoever he was, found them in the opening of TJE. That servant would have reported back to Kellhus, "Yo, there's a Nonman here." Moreover, Kosoter is Zaudunyani, if the Imperial had asked Kosoter to tell him the identity of Cleric, he would.

Moreover, Kellhus knows that Nil'Giccas doesn't rule in Ishterebinth. In The Warrior Prophet, Aurang tells a skin-spy that he knows everything Nin-Cilijaris or Cijilaris or whatever does. Skin-spies can be broken, if the state of Ishterebinth is common knowledge among the skin-spies, then Kellhus knows.

[Sci-2]

I completely disagree with just about all your criticisms. This line about Sorweel struck me though.

We don't know that.

It could very well be that Yatwer caused Sorweel to wake up. Yatwer may be clever enough to know that Sorweel was wavering (particularly as Serwa was conditioning him with the talks she was giving him). Yatwer may also be clever enough to know the best way to harden Sorweel's heart against all Anasurimbor forever. What better way to wrong a virgin teenage boy than with sex. And I feel that sex and carnality wold be Yatwer's weapon of choice to use on Sorweel, to harden his heart and to further make him her's.

In such an instance, Sorweel could see the truth of Kellhus' Ordeal with his own eyes and still turn against Kellhus. Kellhus could be battling Aurax one on one and Sorweel may still choose to attack Kellhus with his stealth chorae and kill him. Sorweel will make the choice that will best assuage and protect his own ego, that will feel like the greatest "right" to his own internal sense of I-have-been-wronged! And that right may conflict with what is right for the world.

In fact two of your big criticisms of the deaths in this book were exactly this sort, they died because of selfish decisions rather than for the good of the world. It would have been best for the world if Cleric sided with the Ordeal but he chose the selfish and memorable path. It would have been best for the world for Maithanet to competently manage the empire after the coup ousting Esmenet, but Esme chose the selfish path that protected her own internal sense of identity and rightness. We are seeing the fallibilities of mortals play out on a worldly stage, and each further failing seems to condemn the world more.

Wow. This is a great analysis of the characters. I still would like to have seen more intelligence from Esmi, but examining her tragic flaw in this light - where her children are more an excuse to justify her need for power - is masterful. It even fits in with what Inrilatas tells Kelmomas, that love is a justification for a need to master the world. In Kelmomas's case that is a need to murder, in Esmi's it's a need to shore up insecurities.

Out of curiosity, what led you this conclusion about Esmi? Is it something we see evidence of in TTT and TJE?

Mimara is kind of the center of it all, isn't she? Wouldn't it be ironic if after all the flak Bakker has taken that Mimara has always been intended to be the whore who saves the world? Taking the low and elevating her to the most high of high levels. Rather than just being along for the ride, ala Esme, Mimara will be taking actions and having indpendent agency in fulfilling her destiny. It will be the flawed and fallen woman who is the world's salvation and greatest hope. It won't be the uber-perfect Ninja Gandalf Jesus Kellhus who saves the world, it will be a common whore. How dare Bakker make her a whore, he could just as easily have used a noble woman or a merchant woman, that would be more tasteful, and wouldn't at all change the literary meanings of her role, would it. ;)

Well, we have that with Esmi as well, the prostitute turned Empress. It would have been interesting to see Mimara as something other than a prostitute, but that would almost let Esmi off the hook if she was a scribe in a library or something. Again, Bakker is giving us something I consider to be important, female characters who enter the inner circle of power - because that is what drives the story - but come from outside of it. This isn't revolutionary, but it does veer from the farm boys and girls coming into power.

Mimara I think is a great character, intelligent and reflective, with a complex history. Bakker even breaks the fourth wall a little, when he talks about decisions made atop pillows versus decisions made atop stones. Esmi started off a great character, but in WLW I can't help but feel she makes a lot of bad decisions - I just can't fathom her distrust of Maithanet, though your argument that internally she needs to satisfy her ego is a great one. It also explains Maithanet, who does exactly the same thing - refusing to think through the situation past the solution that shores up his insecurities.

[Kalbear]

]Mimara is kind of the center of it all, isn't she? Wouldn't it be ironic if after all the flak Bakker has taken that Mimara has always been intended to be the whore who saves the world? Taking the low and elevating her to the most high of high levels. Rather than just being along for the ride, ala Esme, Mimara will be taking actions and having indpendent agency in fulfilling her destiny.

I'm not sure you understand what 'independent agency' means when you're talking about someone actually fulfilling a destiny. If you're destined to do something it's hardly independent, is it?

Furthermore, Mimara is the least independent female character Bakker has introduced in his books; worse than Serwe. First she's sold into slavery and whoredom at a young age. Then she doesn't want to kill her captors, but she can't make that choice. Then she wants to learn the Gnosis, but they won't let her. Then she runs away but who she runs to is carefully decided upon and guided - she's sent to seduce Akka, basically, and done with full knowledge. Then we find out that she's a bearer of TJE, which (among other things) essentially reduces all her causality to a single, known line. She's been conditioned ever since Kellhus (and to a lesser extent, Kelmomas) has met her, and before that she was sold into slavery.

And then her role in the slog? She's the prize. She's something to be fought over. Between Somaspy, Kosoter, Akka and the rest of the group she's something to be fought for, or rescued from, or used. She's not someone to fight with them.

That's not agency. That's an object.

Bakker already elevated a whore to the most high of high levels and gave her 'agency'. Esme's story is essentially this in the first book; what you're describing is not any more relevant or interesting than her tale. It's not ironic if Bakker does this again; it's reiterating a central conceit.

[Sci-2]

I'm not sure you understand what 'independent agency' means when you're talking about someone actually fulfilling a destiny. If you're destined to do something it's hardly independent, is it?

I think the question here is will Mimara ultimately choose to fulfill her destiny - destiny meaning she ends up in a position to make that choice. After all, if she has control over damnation she might end up being the key to salvation if she chooses to make some particular sacrifice. As to her lack of agency, that I do largely agree with but I think her ability to reflect on her circumstances is telling - she has been manipulated but so has just about everyone else in the novel. That she can shoulder the Judging Eye, that she saves Akka from Hell...as much as she might hate herself she is one of the few shining examples of a good person in Earwa.

[Madness]

I have the random, or not so random, apparently, bigger paperback edition of TJE and WLW.

However, Mimira's dream description I'm talking about is in C.1, p.34 of WLW.

The mention of the Intact is C.15, p.537 of WLW.

But is not this Thorsten's position on the three seas forum?

HE, I never completely subscribed to Thorsten's theories. Some of his words are very illuminating frameworks. I always wanted to write a refutation to his overall metaphysics.

Also, though Calibander, Curethan, and others quizzed Thorsten, I don't know that we ever fleshed out exactly what it would mean if the No-God were a MacBook AI equivalent to our technology in the near future, per say.

I thought that was a remarkable little bit as well. We know now that Mimara has seen little of Kellhus when she was back at the Andiamine heights, and we know she has never seen him with the Judging Eye. But this quote tells us that Kellhus, as is his wont, has seen deep inside her and seen the truth of her. And clearly, Kellhus did not like what he saw. In addition to that we have been told that whereas Kellhus insisted that Serwa be trained as a witch at the age of 3, he let Esmenet have full control over Mimara's fate. In general Kellhus seems to have paid Mimara little attention and did not desire her to be trained in the Gnosis, despite being of the Few. He has seen the truth of her though, so maybe he is in some way responsible for her going to Achamian.

I agree, largely, except Mimira received the mundane training expected of an Imperial Court. She surprises the Captain in combat with her swordplay. There's reminiscences of fighting with Moenghus or Kayutas, which is likely a feat itself. So she's not just forgotten by Kellhus. I feel like Mimira no longer wishes to learn sorcery by the end of WLW, which might begin a true Prophet's journey in Earwa. Maybe Kellhus foresaw that. As Achamian says to Mimira, the God of Gods experiences her life all at once, somehow enabling her to have the Judging Eye her whole life, though her impending pregnancy has Achamian newly worried.

Ieva is saying that Nau Cayuti had a mistress and that this mistress will hate hearing that Nau Cayuti died in his wife's ( Ieva's) arms. If I read it right, it seems she fed him something that didn't actually kill him, but he was put in a coffin, and then next he knows is taken out of that coffin in the heart of Golgotterath where Aurang stands tall over him. Did I get that right?

We only have limited evidence to discern the location of his capture. However, rereading some TTT Appendix and the dream sequence, I would guess Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti made to rendezvous with some Knights and his household, following their escape from Golgotterath with the Heron Spear and, possibly, Aulisi, his concubine. Obviously, Aurang did some sex magic with Nau-Cayuti's wife like Esmenet's seductions and either controlled, or more likely, convinced Ieva to betray her husband. Likely, just guessing though, the encampment is ambushed in the night, Seswatha escapes alone with the Heron Spear and everyone save Nau-Cayuti is dead.

Agreed that the WLW is the assasin that kills Maithanet, this seemed quite obvious to me.

Clearly, it wasn't obvious to many readers so I couldn't assume.

To another point in your post, Calibander, Achamian mentions something called the Kahiht when comparing the Judging Eye to it and the White-Luck Warrior.

But, yes, I've enjoyed reducing characters in Bakker's work to the Erikson framework of the positions in the Houses. On this line, I had Kelmomas' Voice pinned as Sammi in TJE but I feel like, regardless, Kelmomas is chiefly Ajolki's benjuka piece. Also, depending on whether Kelmomas got the group version or the one-on-one version of the Kellian Whelming hypnotism and the fact that Ajolki might see the No-God and the future it represents, Ajolki and Kellhus might equally be using Kelmomas as unknown, or even recognized, allies.

Btw, Kal, I really enjoyed your post on Mimira above. I salute your reasoning as much as I seem at odds with your opinions.

A couple other thoughts as I do my reread of WLW and fact check for these posts.

- The kipfa'aifan, the Witness of Fane, pimples and cracks as if burnt when Psatma touches it.

- Kellhus, p.351:

"The man I know, the Greater Proyas, I hold in shackles of iron. I am Dunyain, my friend, exactly as Achamian claimed. To merely stand in my presence is to be enslaved."

Reminded me of the dread I feel when reading Neuropath.

I'm beginning to think that Kellhus will betray the Ordeal, whether by faking his death or clear betrayal. Proyas thoughts seem to lead us to believe that Kellhus is preparing him for a trial. Also, Maithanet mentions to Esmenet that no matter what happens in the New Empire, if the No-God is resurrected, they will unite for feeling his presence. Perhaps, Kellhus needs a unified Three-Seas and Ordeal and the No-God is another tool in his bid at Godhood. He might seek to resurrect the No-God, help the Consult do it faster?

[jurble]

We only have limited evidence to discern the location of his capture. However, rereading some TTT Appendix and the dream sequence, I would guess Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti made to rendezvous with some Knights and his household, following their escape from Golgotterath with the Heron Spear and, possibly, Aulisi, his concubine. Obviously, Aurang did some sex magic with Nau-Cayuti's wife like Esmenet's seductions and either controlled, or more likely, convinced Ieva to betray her husband. Likely, just guessing though, the encampment is ambushed in the night, Seswatha escapes alone with the Heron Spear and everyone save Nau-Cayuti is dead. I think it's interesting that Nau-Cayuti wanted to die like a Nonman, burned, and not buried.

No, no, no, Nonman are buried, not burned. Humans are burned. That's the whole thing, only Nonman heroes get burnt and turned into Qirri. Ieva claims that Nau-Cayuti wanted to be buried like a Nonman, because she knows he is still alive - she just poisoned him.

Nau-Cayuti's timeline isn't hard:

1. Aulisi is kidnapped.

2. Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti enter Golgotterath and seek the Heron Spear, though Seswatha claims Aulisi still lives.

3. They get the spear.

4. Ieva poisons Nau-Cayuti at their home in Tryse and claims he wants to be buried like a Nonman. She also claims that Aulisi will weep, which appears to indicate that Aulisi IS still alive.

5. Nau-Cayuti is taken captive by the Consult and tortured.

[Madness]

Good call, I'll edit that, Skafra. You might have responded with some evolving speculation. Lol.

EDIT: And you did. Apologies.

And Skafra, I meant to say the location of his capture is hard to define, not the timeline. Seswatha eventually tells Nau-Cayuti in the TTT Dreams that he thinks Aulisi is dead.

K, last edit.

[Calibandar]

Harren:

Another observation: Esmenet remarked at some point that the Scylvendi had become more active lately, harrassing the border, but then suddenly stopped showing any activity. While Esmenet fears it might be a trick, I believe the Scylvendi may well have been 'recruited' by the Consult to help them in their war against the Great Ordeal. We may see them turning up in The Unholy Consult during the march towards Golgotterath

I found that an interesting point as well, it happens when Esmenet is considering drawing troops away from the border with the Scylvendi to defend another city. The Scylvendi were first warring heavily at their borders, but suddenly went quiet. Made me think they might have been recruited by the Consult as well. They'd have to make haste going to the North though. In any case, Kellhus did not feel like recruiting them for his Great Ordeal even when he incorporated so many others. If Fanayal and the Zeumi will serve as the enemies of the New Empire, then the Scylvendi might serve another purpose in Scott's story.

Madness

Another thought along this line, is the Qirri an artifact of the Tekne, the Womb-Plague, and Nonman immortality or is it a unique property of dead Nonmen? As, I think, Razor suggested upthread, what will happen when the Ordeal begins eating Sranc, if the Qirri is an artifact of the Tekne?

Qirri is strictly a product of dead Nonmen. Kalbear's suggestion about what this means when the Ordeal starts eating Sranc is intriguing, but the effect could be null and void. The Sranc are a very far cry from the greatest of the Nonmen, and manufactured by the Inchoroi, which the Nonmen are not, by which I am saying that the difference might lay in the origin of their birth as much as the difference in stature.

Armitage

Interesting point about Kosoter "the Iron souled" having been to the Outside and now being possesed by a demon. This would make Sarl carrying his head around make more sense, indeed a parallel to Kellhus and this twin demon heads. On the whole, most of the quotes from TJE and WLW seem to point to Kosoter actually being a demon, or being inhabited by one, one now set free from it's human shackles. This would jive with the stuff about him seems to hate speaking, as if it were unnatural , and how he makes a grating sound etc.

This is a thing Bakker does a lot, making you wonder if he is describing something metaphorically, or if we should take it literally. Like the multitude of references to Kosoter's demonic look, or the way he describes Wutteat as iron spiked, bronze scaled and furnace hearted. You could that that literal and it could all well be true. Yet "iron", "bronze" and "furnace hearted" could be meant metaphorically as well, to describe his organic look.

[jurble]

Kosoter is a human, there's lots of lines that make sound as if he's a demon - the first book where he says that Cil Aujus is not hell because he'd remember hell, the numerous references in this book to him resembling a demon, how his blasted, damned soul resembles a Ciphrang, etc.

But I think, in the end, he is still just a human. There's no indication he's actually possessed. He'd a skilled warrior, damned by his numerous crimes, and a devout Zaudunyani.

Because, if he were a Ciphrang, why would he care about his own damnation so much? Ciphrangs are the torturers, not the tortured.

[MisterGuyMan]

Btw, I just wanted to refute whomever said Gilgaol wouldn't favor Kosoter. According to TTT Appendix, Gilgaol wants followers who don't seek his favor but continue to serve His philosophies in Earwa. Kosoter and Cnaiur were perfect candidates. Cnaiur could actually make a reappearance in this story if he's dead and Gilgaol shelters him in the Outside.

You're probably referring to something I said. Gilgaol definitely favors warlike characters like Kosotor and Cnauir. I just pointed out that Gilgaol is not a compensatory god. After rechecking I must admit my mistake. Gilgaol is indeed a compensatory God so he should actually reward warlike men with paradise in the afterlife.

Now that being said, now I'm wondering the exact rules governing damnation. Why wouldn't Gilgaol protect someone like Kosotor? My initial guess would be that since Yatwer is the only god more powerful than Gilgaol, Kosotor's crimes against Yatwer's followers must outweigh his warlike Gilgaol virtues. Gilgaol can only protect warlike men so long as some one more powerful doesn't demand damnation, in this case, Yatwer.

I've only just starting thinking about this so let me know what you think.

[delete this account pls]

Well, just going off of things that might be sins in Gilgaol's eyes - Kosoter has a penchant for murdering the men under his command for fairly minor infractions. I'd say he probably isn't shy about killing and/or raping non-combatants either, which is probably something 'officially' frowned upon in Gilgaol's scripture.

Beyond that, there has to be a range of acts that are officially condemned by the gods as a whole, right? So I imagine it's the usual stuff, the same things Christianity might regard as sins.