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The White-Luck Warrior II (spoilers)


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Even Serwa got the nightmares before learning the Gnosis. That is probably very significant because it means that it is still true that everyone who learns it gets converted automatically. If that is used it would be another Dune(sequel) parallel. And there is only one school left that both wants the Gnosis and is not yet under control.

She gets the nightmares because she touched Seswatha's heart. Note that Kellhus does not get the nightmares (or there's no indication that he does). It's a product of the Mandate - not of the Gnosis.
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She gets the nightmares because she touched Seswatha's heart. Note that Kellhus does not get the nightmares (or there's no indication that he does). It's a product of the Mandate - not of the Gnosis.

Yes, but that means that the Gnosis still can't be freely taught by anyone except Khellus and maybe Akka.

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The last scene with Sorweel seemed rather silly. I suppose he was starting to get a little too friendly to be called an enemy.

Crackpot theory:

Serwa can teleport as much as she wants without rest; this trip is merely a way to manipulate Sorweel into doing, feeling, or seeming like something. Seeing that scene between Serwa and Mo was part of their manipulation of him.

I think this in part because you should never trust the Dunyain, and in part because the whole "I can only cast 2 level 7 meta-gnostic spells before having to rest" strikes me as too RPGish. (And yes, I know this is a book with a character called 'Cleric.') I don't know if we've ever had a sorcerer say something like that before.

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Khellus seems to prepare to die. I can't really think of another reason why he suddenly tells Proyas the truth. Anyone remember the scene in one of the Dune sequels where they find the Worm's spice hoard complete with instructions on what to do? I think Khellus may prepare something similar.

=Ishual

does Bakker like Superman? I'll admit that's a silly question for a book about the ultimate ubermensch, maybe Ishual has been Kell's fortress of solitude for a while now?

Will Marlon Brando meet Akka at Ishual!

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The trial of reading this thread and the previous one has nearly broken me.

First, loved the book. Dragged in places, mostly because I didn't want to read the Esmi chapters, but was overall quite amazing. Unlike many here, I loved the battle scenes - then again, I'm a big fan of the classics, so maybe that explains that.

A few observations:

1. Something that I don't think anyone has mentioned. This would be super cliche and would need a lot of explanation, but my first thought was that Meppa was Cnaiur. The age and skin fit, and there weren't any descriptions that would rule it out. This would, however, be a little... obvious.

2. Somebody mentioned that the next series may be named The Solitary God. I really like this thought. My theory has always been that Kellhus' ultimate goal is the destruction of the No-God and the Consult with the aim of making himself the ultimate God of Gods. I think that he plans to sacrifice the hundreds of thousands of faithful at Golgotterath, so that they can influence the Outside enough to make him a God in truth. So, with that in mind, perhaps Kellhus left Esmi in charge knowing that she would fail and that Fanayal would strike. Kellhus comes back, purports himself as the next Fane or even the Solitary God himself - and there's an empire already well on its way to being conquered by Fanim awaiting him.

I had more points but have forgotten them over the course of reading the threads :P

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Or any of the Mangaccea, or the Quya. Plenty of folks out there to teach it if someone cared to learn.

The Mangaecca makes me wonder why Kellhus didn't give the Gnosis to all the schools. Surely he's considered the possibility that over 2,000 years the Mangaecca have been recruiting, and that even a slow recruitment rate + immortality = they outnumber his own Gnostic sorcerers.

Finally finished. Amazon's betrayal will not be forgotten.

Several unsorted observations:

Why do they call Iokys the Necromancer? He summons demons not the dead. Makes me suspect chanv is dead people.

When I was reading the book, I assumed Iyokus is the Necromancer, simply because he's like 120 years old, blind, pale, and a sorcerer. I mean, visually, he looks like the stereotype of a necromancer.

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What if Kellhus' plans are to unite the gods? If he can bind the spaces in between the gods wouldn't this create a lot less discord? That could be why he let the Cish continue on, there needs to be someone to preach about there only being one god because soon there will only be one god.

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Khellus seems to prepare to die. I can't really think of another reason why he suddenly tells Proyas the truth. Anyone remember the scene in one of the Dune sequels where they find the Worm's spice hoard complete with instructions on what to do? I think Khellus may prepare something similar.

Gratified that someone else got this impression, it seems important.

[dons crackpot hat] He may also be preparing to go into a crunch situation quest ala his circumfixion where he dont know if he will succeed/live etc. Assault Golgoteroth whilst their troops are enganged, quest for the Heron Mcguffin on anarcane ground or summink.

I barely comprehend why Inralatus tried to murder Maitha, assumed it was because every time he gets to break a taboo he feels less suffocated.

I was fairly sure he just wants to heap maximum damnation on himself. As demonstrated in the first trilogy, who you kill and why is important as to whether murder is holy or profane.

Kellhus made some interesting comments on how he evaluates such situations when talking to Proyas. I wonder how effectively he is negotiating these 'boundaries' of the outside, or if it is all just lies to reinforce Kellhusism.

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I don't thinkg "The Solitary God" works as a title for the third trilogy, unless TUC moves Kel along much farther than I think it will. The names are Kellhus descriptions at the start of the series.

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Yeah, I just don't see Khellus as able to rewrite reality to the point of becoming the God of Gods. More and more I'm doubtful he can even become *a* god.

My big worry is the end of UC is going to jump the shark on this. Right now we barely have an inkling of Khellus's power, what the TTT is, what the No-God is, what the power of the Consult is, the strength of the Intact Non-men, the power of the Judging Eye, what Water of the Cish exactly is...

Magic works best when the rules are established - so far the metaphysics are a blur, given to us by unreliable narrators. Right now it feels, to me anyway, we just will not settle things by the end of UC.

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"What father murders so many of his sons?"

"A divine one," the Exalt-General declared

I believe that this is a major hint.

Kellhus wants to use the Ordeal to become a god.

I'm thinking about why Kellhus wanted the destruction of the southern army, because there is no way that he didn't know what would happen to it. Assuming that he doesn't want the slaughter of his entire army, it would make sense to destroy those who could never return home peacefully after the collapse of the empire - the Fanim traitors. But this isn't plausible, there must be some other reason.

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Despite him it being a better narrative strategy sadly it's impossible to say which parts are the grand plan and which parts are happenstance with the non POV Kellhus.

Although I guess his heart to hearts with Proyas might just be a way of showing us more of him. If not for those we would have had almost no Kellhus in this book

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An aside: why do so many people spell Kellhus as Khellus? His name shortened isn't Khell (like the ch in chess) and the syllables are KELL-Hus - Hus like Hussar. Khellus would be similar to jealous.

Because his milkshake is better then yours. He could teach you but he would have to charge.

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HI, Earwan scholars, delurking here to ask a question:

The consensus, or leading theory at least, regarding the missing Dunyain seems to be that Kellhus was somehow behind it. Why? Two things nag at me that would appear to disqualify him:

1) Why lay the groundwork years in advance for Achamian's quest to find the coffers, with Kosoter, etc, just to show Akka an empty ruin?

2) Achamian notes that, when he finds it in the coffers, the scroll tube containing the map to Ishual has already been opened. This implies that whomever was involved with Ishual's destruction got its location from the map, yet Kellhus would not need a map.

This of course begs the question as to who exactly opened the map, and what the strategy was to leave the opened map behind for someone else to find. The consult? Wracu suggests their presence there, but I don't know why they would suspect the map existed to begin with. The Mangaecca? They might have some reason to think this existed. Non-men?

It also makes me wonder if the map was tampered with, and that's why it was left behind, and Akka has discovered some random decoy ruin.

Why was Seswatha transmitting dreams of the coffers to begin with? Was Akka's subconscious somehow pulling out this info, coercing Seswatha somehow, due to his need to expose Kellhus? And why were his dreams subverted suddenly to Nau Cayuti's experiences - was this from Seswatha, or because of the Qirri, or because of the weird topos-like quality of the Mop, where these dreams started?

Thanks for any help!

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HI, Earwan scholars, delurking here to ask a question:

The consensus, or leading theory at least, regarding the missing Dunyain seems to be that Kellhus was somehow behind it. Why? Two things nag at me that would appear to disqualify him:

1) Why lay the groundwork years in advance for Achamian's quest to find the coffers, with Kosoter, etc, just to show Akka an empty ruin?

2) Achamian notes that, when he finds it in the coffers, the scroll tube containing the map to Ishual has already been opened. This implies that whomever was involved with Ishual's destruction got its location from the map, yet Kellhus would not need a map.

This of course begs the question as to who exactly opened the map, and what the strategy was to leave the opened map behind for someone else to find. The consult? Wracu suggests their presence there, but I don't know why they would suspect the map existed to begin with. The Mangaecca? They might have some reason to think this existed. Non-men?

It also makes me wonder if the map was tampered with, and that's why it was left behind, and Akka has discovered some random decoy ruin.

Why was Seswatha transmitting dreams of the coffers to begin with? Was Akka's subconscious somehow pulling out this info, coercing Seswatha somehow, due to his need to expose Kellhus? And why were his dreams subverted suddenly to Nau Cayuti's experiences - was this from Seswatha, or because of the Qirri, or because of the weird topos-like quality of the Mop, where these dreams started?

Thanks for any help!

From the dreams of the gates we know that it would take a sorcerer of rank, and probably a Mandate sorcerer to open the gate to the coffers. On the other hand, it seems to be a magical lock, not a gate to a storage chamber of the outside, because when Wuteat wreaked the lock, things outside were not lost.

I don't think Akka was led to the wrong ruin, the description of their journey to Ishual is the inverse of Kellhus journey out of the Ishual valley.

It is very possible that someone else got hold of the map first though, but why would they leave it if they did? the simplest explanation is that Wuteat broke it.

In terms of who is likely to search the coffers, well it might be: the Inchoroi, The Mandate, The Mangaecca, Ishterebinth, Scylvendie, Atraithau, Zeum or Moenghus. I think it unlikely that others would try to get there. The Inchoroi and the Mangaecca have the easiest way of getting in there, the scene with the thing called soma and the sranc shows that they have some authority and control over wild sranc, wuteat's presence is also indicative that they may have left him there as a guard dog. It would be like the Consult to destroy the Dunyain. They would keep some captives to rape-terrogate but what would the Dunyain really give up? they have no info, really, on Kellhus, and it would take a lot of patience and forethought from the Consult to really get just how valuable Dunyain could be. I think they'd try a little slaughter to soften up the Dunyain, they'd rape-terrogate a few to no useful net intelligence, and since they don't have the patience to learn the intricacies and fallibilities in Dunyain worldview they wind up killing everyone else in disgust. They note that they're fucking crazy powerfully physically, with Kellhus' superhuman physical abilities, but that would come out in interrogation, they spend their life training the body in order to sharpen the mind.

So if the Consult attacks Ishual, they destroy it and learn nothing, and they probably think they have nothing to gain by allying with the Dunyain, they're a threat and they just wipe them out to minimize the risk. It is very likely survivors hid in the thousand thousand halls and Akka and Mimara are in terrible danger.

If Isherebinith finds Ishual, they may get attached to the Dunyain, and I could see a battle followed by a truce, followed by the Nonmen taking the Dunyain to Ishterebinth (this would send Akka and Mim to Ishterebinth as well, uniting the Akka and Sorweel threads).

If the Scylvendie find Ishual it would be indicative of Cnaiur living, and persuading a small army to journey up the Demua Mountains to the far north. I find this unlikely and I find it absurd that no one would have heard of such a scylvendie operation.

Atraithau could find Ishual and no one would be the wiser, but without sorcerers they have no real chance against the Dunyain.

Zeum could both reach the coffers (by boat) and possibly to Ishual, but I can't imagine them sending a force large enough to overcome the Dunyain. However a few sorcerers of rank accompanied by an elite guard could maybe make it there. But we know this sea journey is incredibly risky, and sending sorcerers on such a journey when you don't even know what you're looking for in the coffers seems an incredible waste.

Moenghus could have destroyed Ishual after he sent for Kellhus. He could leave from when we first see him in Momemn in TDTCB and head through Scylvendie territory and up to Ishual, he can presumably speak Sranc and presumably wouldn't have a problem dominating them, even blind. and then use his Cishaurim skill to hunt down every last Dunyain. He'd then head straight south, knowing that he'd get to Shimeh long before the conditioned holy war gets there.

So really, the only likely scenarios are: Kellhus did it, The Dunyain did it themselves, The Consult did it, Ishterebinth did it.

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