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Ran

Glimpses from Anne Groell

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Welcome, LaHotah! Could you explain a bit more about what you mean?

AFFC Arya II

"Who are you?"

"No One," Arya Answered in Braavosi.

"You Lie," said the waif. "You must lie gooder."

Arya laughed. "Gooder? You mean better, stupid."

"Better stupid. I will show you."

The next day they began the lying game...

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-The only other man I remember with greyscale was one of Balon's dead brothers, Harlon? Well, he's both dead and has greyscale on his mouth and lips, so that matches Tyrion's comments, but that can't be what it means. Wait, one of Dany's prophesies was also about a dead man on the prow of a ship with GREY lips. That fits too. Me thinks I have me a crackpot theory...

I too thought of Dany's prophecy in the House of the Undying Ones and wondered if it was related to the Victarion snippet:

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

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About the Wintefell chapter, does anyone have any guesses on who the POV is? I know Theon is the likely suspect but given what we know about his current state, and the spoiler POV we have from him, I feel the text doesn't read like his character.

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Why? To succeed, Ramsay needs to intimidate people who know better into keeping silent, or discredit/murder those who speak the truth. He doesn't really need to fool anybody. He could say that Jeyne Poole was Ned Stark and it would work just as well.

The main reason: Theon. I was thinking (I guess more hoping) that Theon would redeem himself by exposing the fake-Arya plot absolutely taking away Ramsay's claim to Winterfell. Technically, this could still certainly happen after the scene read by Anne, but I imagined that Theon would have a hard time going along with the plot the first time he met "Arya."

I guess I just desperately want Theon to redeem himself.

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About the Wintefell chapter, does anyone have any guesses on who the POV is? I know Theon is the likely suspect but given what we know about his current state, and the spoiler POV we have from him, I feel the text doesn't read like his character.

I think it would have to be Theon. Unless there is some other brand new PoV we really wouldn't have anyone else at Winterfell that would know Ramsey quite as well as this PoV seems to.

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I imagined that Theon would have a hard time going along with the plot the first time he met "Arya."

I'd argue the opposite. Theon going along with the plot is exactly what I'd expected. He's always shown a susceptibility to domination by a stronger personality, be it Robb, Balon, Ramsay, or even Luwin (who almost gets him to join the Night's Watch). Now that he's been physically and psychologically broken, that tendency is even more pronounced: he grovels and pleads to Ramsay, he thinks how kind Ramsay has been for not flaying him further, etc. I expect to be under Ramsay's thumb for a while. If he's captured by Asha, he'd probably swing back to her way of thinking and spoil the ruse at that point; but on his own? I'd be shocked if that happened.

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Theon is most certainly not becoming a problem for the Boltons for a while. But I'm sure that Stannis, Asha, and/or the Manderlys (if they have Rickon Stark) will jump on the opportunity to deliver their own 'wedding present' to the new 'Lord of Winterfell'. Theon is likely the POV who is showing us these events. If he is going to be freed we will see if he is still in the shape to become a puppet 'Lord Greyjoy'.

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Theon is most certainly not becoming a problem for the Boltons for a while. But I'm sure that Stannis, Asha, and/or the Manderlys (if they have Rickon Stark) will jump on the opportunity to deliver their own 'wedding present' to the new 'Lord of Winterfell'. Theon is likely the POV who is showing us these events. If he is going to be freed we will see if he is still in the shape to become a puppet 'Lord Greyjoy'.

I agree on the Manderlys opposing the Boltons and maybe Rickon ending in White Harbour. I think Rickon will come to White Harbour and will be shown through Davos POV (I believe, the Manderlys tricked Cercei with a false head and false hands, to get his son back - resembling the dwarven heads, Cersei had to observe and that Davos still is alive ). Or he'll be caught by the Boltons - we knew from the Bran chapter, where he met the Little, that Ramsey is looking for Bran and Rickon. Osha was heading for the Kingsroad and her two options were going to White Harbour or to Last Hearth (ignoring the Dreadfort, because she knew or could at least suspect, that she couldn't find help there). So both are good options, but I suppose, if she met Greatjons uncles and Wyman Manderly, she would more tend to Wyman (as I would ;) ) - and also going to Last Hearth could put them into the hands of the Boltons, as one of the uncles was in the Reek chapter and we do not know, if they would give Rickon to the Boltons instead of protecting them.

Both options - going to White Harbour, or being caught by the Boltons would be able to show Rickon without introducing a knew POV (Osha).

About the Manderlys opposing the Boltons and the maybe the Iron Throne: In one Davos chapter we see the hidden fleet in White Harbour and there is certainly a reason for hiding it and for bulding it (we know the intension of its building was to fight the Ironborn, but you can switch your plans). White Harbour is near to Moat Cailin and also to Greywater Watch - so there could be a possibility of the Manderlys and the Reeds uniting against the Ironborn in Moat Cailin, but well, there is certainly much speculation in it, but geographically it makes sense and it would provide security against possible help for the Boltons from the south. Also the Reeds should now be joined by Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover and this would provide a good new alliance of northern houses, opposing everyone, who's threatening the north.

And Theon: I think it will be really interesting to see if he will change his mind and become a lesser selfish man. He regreted the thought about joining the NW when he saw Ramsey's men attack the other northern forces and he also did not regret killing the children - maybe subconscious in his dream, but no more. Maybe he'll have a similar progress and change of mind, like Jaime had it since losing his hand (I don't say Jaime changed completely, but he's thinking more about what he's doing, what he has done, and what happens to other people, without beeing the nicest guy you have ever met, but he also seeks kind of redemption). Maybe his new life as Reek will change him, but maybe the opposite will happen and he'll just become more bitter in the end.

Edit:

Regarding another subject of this thread:

The guy talking about his brother and the death of the king could also be a sparrow. I think if Cersei gets out of her trouble and then Tommen dies and (paranoid as she is), she could think the sparrows are involved in it, not matter how far it's fetched. And even if there is an enormous number of sparrows in Kings Landing - Cersei wouldn't hesitate to order the Gold Cloaks to kill all the sparrows or imprison them (she earlier in AFFC thougt about the guards to beat a way through the sparrows).

Certainly not the likeliest option (I can't remember a sparrow who it was worth to get a POV ;) ), but a possibility.

Btw: I'm sad that they did not elect Septon Luceon instead of the High Sparrow - then we would have the High Weasel instead of the High Sparrow!

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Last Hearth is an unlikely destination for Osha, as it lies north of Winterfell, and if she had intended to go there, she and the Reeds could (and likely would) have gone together for some time at least.

If Osha went to White Harbor, I'm pretty sure she should already be there when Davos arrives there in ADwD. Having Rickon Stark in his care should make Lord Manderly particularly cautious, and it would also explain why he continued to build the fleet he intended to build for King Robb. Without Rickon, the only real option Manderly had after the Red Wedding was yielding to the Lannisters. The question is, is Manderly going to risk something after Davos delivers Stannis' offer, or does he intend to wait to make his bid. Technically Rickon has to get older before he can reveal him to the world, so it's not that unlikely that him doing nothing openly right now has as much to do with Rickon's youth as with the fact that he wants his heir back.

But I'm pretty sure that he is going to do something when the news about Cersei being an utter fool arrives in the North. Or he might make his decision when he hears about Tywin's death. Even if Cersei was much more competent, she would always be discarded as a woman, and never be seen as a leader of the same level as Lord Tywin.

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Last Hearth is an unlikely destination for Osha, as it lies north of Winterfell, and if she had intended to go there, she and the Reeds could (and likely would) have gone together for some time at least.

If Osha went to White Harbor, I'm pretty sure she should already be there when Davos arrives there in ADwD. Having Rickon Stark in his care should make Lord Manderly particularly cautious, and it would also explain why he continued to build the fleet he intended to build for King Robb. Without Rickon, the only real option Manderly had after the Red Wedding was yielding to the Lannisters. The question is, is Manderly going to risk something after Davos delivers Stannis' offer, or does he intend to wait to make his bid. Technically Rickon has to get older before he can reveal him to the world, so it's not that unlikely that him doing nothing openly right now has as much to do with Rickon's youth as with the fact that he wants his heir back.

But I'm pretty sure that he is going to do something when the news about Cersei being an utter fool arrives in the North. Or he might make his decision when he hears about Tywin's death. Even if Cersei was much more competent, she would always be discarded as a woman, and never be seen as a leader of the same level as Lord Tywin.

I really think Osha was aware of Bran, Hodor and the Reeds going to cross the wall. She had enough hints about it after Bran's question how he could head for the wall and with what he told about his wolfdreams. I think she knew they were heading beyond the wall and that she would have to take another direction with Rickon and not to be with them.

And about Wyman Manderly:

Certainly there is no option to give Rickon a claim, because he is so young, but I got the impression, that he is a very loyal follower of the Starks and the "true north". I really think he has got no reason to offend Cersei, whatever he thinks about her, but to defend the north and to hold it all together - I think he (and Howland Reed) are the ones to hold it all together and take some pressure away from the north, so that they can put their forces in whatever may come.

Certainly he's not aware of the Others, but maybe Howland is, and anyway he'll try to secure the north from the southern influences and from the Boltons. Everything further is certainly more then rough speculation.

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White Harbor is so large though, it would be very hard for Wyman to hide them for a long while, however if he is in communication with Greywater watch, he probably knows a way to spirit them there, knowing they'll never be found with Reed's people.

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I don't see the Manderlys taking action against the Boltons for a while. If I'm Wyman Manderly, I'm going to spend the next few months (or more) waiting to see how things shake out, and I wouldn't planning on acting right away. Not when I hear that Tywin's dead, not when I receive Davos or the commands from Cersei to have him executed, not even when my son is returned to me. The result of having played Cersei false in the matter of Davos's execution is that House Manderly would have a target on its back if that treachery is ever revealed. So it's not worth it to take any kind of stand against them until I know that I'm on the winning side.

It may be true that Wyman Manderly is a believer in the values of the north and the Starks (with the exception of his religion). But I don't see how that changes the equation. It doesn't serve the Starks to fight a pointless rearguard action that leads to enemy occupation of White Harbor. The smart play may be to hunker down and endure, teach Stark values to your children and grandchildren, and wait to see how things turn out in a decade, or a generation.

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Well, that's not going to happen. And the Boltons are intending to occupy White Harbor in the end. At least if Ramsay gets his way. Between him and the Manderlys there is no love left, and I can see him taking the whole Hornwood business personal.

Lord Wyman has to take a side sooner rather than later, or the whole point of showing us White Harbor in ADwD would be pointless.

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Lord Wyman has to take a side sooner rather than later, or the whole point of showing us White Harbor in ADwD would be pointless.

To be clear, I don't think that Wyman Manderly _will_ hunker down and wait this whole thing out. However, I think that his inclination will be to do just that until the situation changes. That could mean the arrival of Daenerys, that could mean Stannis winning a battle against the Boltons, or--my pet theory--it could mean Melisandre successfully raising the stone beast at the end of ADWD.

And I don't know why you think that Ramsay wants to occupy White Harbor. All we know right now is that he's going to marry Arya and rule from Winterfell, perhaps bumping off his father along the way. Why (absent provocation) should he attack a noble house that's currently giving him homage?

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I too thought of Dany's prophecy in the House of the Undying Ones and wondered if it was related to the Victarion snippet:

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

Yup, that's Euron for sure. He's following Victarian to screw him over and take Dany for his bride - which fits the Undying vision - and when that warlock juice he's been drinking fades off his lips, we'll see they are grey and that he's been drowned this entire time BA-DUN DUN!!!! (For real though. He's a "drowned crow" in the dwarf lady's vision in ASOS.)

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From the YouTube video, couldn't quite understand Ann Groell's voice very well:

p1: The night was rank with the smell of man.

p. 452 "Which game?" Tyrion might have asked. He climbed up onto the chair. "I play better with a full belly and a cup of light (x)." Then the thin man turned obligingly and called for the slave girl. "Fetch him food and drink."

p. 958 This one could not be waved away as some drunken (x) or kick of a horse. The dead man was one of Ramsay's favorites, one scrupulous, ill-favored man at arms called Yellow Dick.

p. 1256 Ancient tidings. I saw him die. The poor man saw a dragon and stumbled as he tried to flee. Then a thousand of his closest friends stepped on him. No doubt the yellow city is awash in tears. Did you ask Meeneer (Meereen") to toast his memory?"

Yes, the two versions are different.

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Does anyone have a super hi def big screen superduper computer that can actually zoom in on the pages of writing as she moves the pages from one pile to the other?

Also, has anyone created an updated map of Westeros/Essos including what was shown at the beginning of episode 2?

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Is the mystery of the last word gnawing at anyone so bad that when you get the book you flip right to the back to see what it is? I only ask because I think it's kinda funny how much specualtion has gone on regarding what the last word starting with a D could be. To me, it doesn't matter what the last word is without knowing every word that comes before.

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