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The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]


thistlepong

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The last thread reached 21 pages. As I understand it, we need a new one.

grinachu gave the copper question a shot in V, here's my shot at elderberry

Elderberry

The first and last chapters of WMF: "Apple and Elderberry" and "Elderberry"

In each Bast employs a rhyme reminiscent of eeny meeny to make choices.

In the first he's looking for elderberry wine/spirits. In the last, he finds them.

Maple. Maypole.

Catch and carry.

Ash and Ember.

Elderberry.

Maple
- tonewood used for musical instruments, shatters when broken

Maypole
- odd intrusion of the Gregorian Calendar, possibly for its Yggdrasil symbolism

Catch and carry
- may refer to pregnancy

Ash and Ember
- familiar symbols withing the story

In addition to being tasty, elderberry wine/spirits may be use to dye hair black and may induce miscarriage. Both are potential uses for a cavorting ebon-haired Faen alchemist in training.

The symbolism of a life cut short or a doomed endeavor may help explain Kvothe's unconscious choice when the shamble-man harasses the Waystonein NotW:

With an almost casual motion, Kvothe grabbed a dark bottle from the counter and flung it across the bar. It struck the mercenary in the mouth and shattered. The air filled with the sharp tang of elderberry, dousing the man’s still-grinning head and shoulders.

Here Kvothe attempts sympathy and fails to set the attacker ablaze. Coincidentally the scen is reminiscent of his attack on Pike back in Tarbean, where the dreg does catch fire, but not in the spectacular way he expects

The full rhyme might be of interest. Here's the Waystone version:

Maple. Maypole.

Catch and carry.

Ash and Ember.

Elderberry.

Woolen. Woman.

Moon at night.

Willow. Window.

Candlelight.

Barrel. Barley.

Stone and stave.

Wind and water-

And the bonfire version:

Maple. Maypole.

Catch and carry.

Ash and Ember.

Elderberry.

Fallow farrow.

Ash and oak.

Bide and borrow.

Chimney smoke.

Barrel. Barley.

Stone and stave.

Wind and water.

Misbehave.

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The last thread reached 21 pages. As I understand it, we need a new one.

grinachu gave the copper question a shot in V, here's my shot at elderberry

Elderberry

The first and last chapters of WMF: "Apple and Elderberry" and "Elderberry"

In each Bast employs a rhyme reminiscent of eeny meeny to make choices.

In the first he's looking for elderberry wine/spirits. In the last, he finds them.

Maple. Maypole.

Catch and carry.

Ash and Ember.

Elderberry.

Maple
- tonewood used for musical instruments, shatters when broken

Maypole
- odd intrusion of the Gregorian Calendar, possibly for its Yggdrasil symbolism

Catch and carry
- may refer to pregnancy

Ash and Ember
- familiar symbols withing the story

In addition to being tasty, elderberry wine/spirits may be use to dye hair black and may induce miscarriage. Both are potential uses for a cavorting ebon-haired Faen alchemist in training.

The symbolism of a life cut short or a doomed endeavor may help explain Kvothe's unconscious choice when the shamble-man harasses the Waystonein NotW:

With an almost casual motion, Kvothe grabbed a dark bottle from the counter and flung it across the bar. It struck the mercenary in the mouth and shattered. The air filled with the sharp tang of elderberry, dousing the man’s still-grinning head and shoulders.

Here Kvothe attempts sympathy and fails to set the attacker ablaze. Coincidentally the scen is reminiscent of his attack on Pike back in Tarbean, where the dreg does catch fire, but not in the spectacular way he expects

The full rhyme might be of interest. Here's the Waystone version:

Maple. Maypole.

Catch and carry.

Ash and Ember.

Elderberry.

Woolen. Woman.

Moon at night.

Willow. Window.

Candlelight.

Barrel. Barley.

Stone and stave.

Wind and water-

And the bonfire version:

Maple. Maypole.

Catch and carry.

Ash and Ember.

Elderberry.

Fallow farrow.

Ash and oak.

Bide and borrow.

Chimney smoke.

Barrel. Barley.

Stone and stave.

Wind and water.

Misbehave.

Thanks for giving this a shot Thistle ^_^

So one point about the rhymes is clearly the subtle link between

fallow...farrow/woolen..woman/maple..maypole.

Beyond the alliteration, it seems like the repetition of similar words is necessary for performing grammarie.

Also it seems like the word ash is repeated, although perhaps it's ash related to ember in one verse, and ash the tree in another.

it seems like the three instructions in the verses are catch & carry and bide and borrow and misbehave respectively. I mean we can infer that Bast has some malefic intent towards the mercenaries and so the instruction 'misbehave' clearly has some consequences for them. What the other instructions are supposed to achieve, I'm not really clear.

One verse doesn't have any instructions at all. "Woolen.Woman/...". I don't know what to make of it.

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Beyond the alliteration, it seems like the repetition of similar words is necessary for performing grammarie.

I'm not convinced the rhyme has anything to do with performing any kind of magic. If nothing else, his failure to locate elderberry in chapter one suggests as much. What gives you the impression that it does? The bit of Grammarie we can be sure he performs with Chronicler's holly crown is mostly silent, isn't it?

Thinking about Merihathor's posts, I plotted out an order of events for the very ancient events. I figured I'd throw it up here in case anyone was interested.

  • Ergen - one world, one moon
  • Felurian at Murella - the sliver tree and the tasted fruit
  • The Broken Road - Hespe's tale of Jax
  • The construction (sewing) of Faen
  • Iax speaks with the Cthaeh
  • Iax pulls the moon into Faen
  • The Creation war -the old knowers wage war on Faen for long centuries
  • Lanre

    Learns to fight

    Marries Lyra

    Lanre and Lyra defend Belen from a surprise attack

    Lanre and Lyra raise armies

    Lanre and Lyra make the cities recognize the need for
    allegiance


  • The Blac of Drossen Tor

    Lanre dies defeating a great beast

    The enemy is
    set beyond
    Skarpi
    the doors of stone (
    shut behind
    Felurian
    )

    Lyra calls him back to life


  • Rumors abound about Lyra and Lanre
  • Lanre speaks to the Cthaeh
  • Lanre engineers the betrayal of Myr Tariniel (and the seven cities)
  • Lanre sacs Myr Tariniel (one city is spared)
  • Selitos curses and temporarily banishes Lanre
  • Formation of the Amyr (Aleph's Choice)

Depending on how long the war was, Saicere could have been shaped before the War, for Lanre, or simply some time before Drossen Tor (based on average length of ownership something like 500 years.)

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...I guess my question is simple. Do you feel that you've gained something from all this theory-crafting? Or are we chasing our own tails, too impatient to wait for the last book to unlock the missing bits?

For myself: I enjoy digging for pieces and symbols and themes and pulling the threads together. I do this for a living (along with real-life digging in the ground), so I don't find the activity wasted or unpleasant later when any theories are shot down with the release of more information. However, maybe others find it fruitless; I think this is dependent on individual personalities :-)

Thanks for the timeline and discussion on grammarie, guys. Very interesting. I don't know what to make of it, other than perhaps speaking the words, whether out loud or silently, is a type of weaving together of elements. Or perhaps this is music of sorts; did you notice the alternating rhythms created via syllables? 4/4/4 then 4/3/4 then 4/4/4. Perhaps the right words spoken in the right cadence with three stanzas is an element of grammarie /shrug.

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For myself: I enjoy digging for pieces and symbols and themes and pulling the threads together. I do this for a living (along with real-life digging in the ground), so I don't find the activity wasted or unpleasant later when any theories are shot down with the release of more information. However, maybe others find it fruitless; I think this is dependent on individual personalities :-)

Well said Merihathor.

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Re grammarie of Bast:

What kind of magic do you think Bast is performing in the following part? Is it grammarie-glamourie or a sort of 'shaping' or...? He creates a living thing, out of ink and beer...? He almost seems as powerful as Felurian...

"Without taking his eyes from Chronicler, Bast laid his bloody palm flat on the table. The wood groaned and the broken timbers snapped back into place with a sudden crackling sound. Bast lifted his hand, then brought it down sharply on the table, and the dark runnels of ink and beer suddenly twisted and shaped themselves into a jet-black crow that burst into flight, circling the taproom once.

Bast caught it with both hands and tore the bird carelessly in half, casting the pieces into the air where they exploded into great washes of flame the color of blood."(ch 105)

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I'm not convinced the rhyme has anything to do with performing any kind of magic. If nothing else, his failure to locate elderberry in chapter one suggests as much. What gives you the impression that it does? The bit of Grammarie we can be sure he performs with Chronicler's holly crown is mostly silent, isn't it?

Thinking about Merihathor's posts, I plotted out an order of events for the very ancient events. I figured I'd throw it up here in case anyone was interested.

  • Ergen - one world, one moon
  • Felurian at Murella - the sliver tree and the tasted fruit
  • The Broken Road - Hespe's tale of Jax
  • The construction (sewing) of Faen
  • Iax speaks with the Cthaeh
  • Iax pulls the moon into Faen
  • The Creation war -the old knowers wage war on Faen for long centuries
  • Lanre

    Learns to fight

    Marries Lyra

    Lanre and Lyra defend Belen from a surprise attack

    Lanre and Lyra raise armies

    Lanre and Lyra make the cities recognize the need for
    allegiance


  • The Blac of Drossen Tor

    Lanre dies defeating a great beast

    The enemy is
    set beyond
    Skarpi
    the doors of stone (
    shut behind
    Felurian
    )

    Lyra calls him back to life


  • Rumors abound about Lyra and Lanre
  • Lanre speaks to the Cthaeh
  • Lanre engineers the betrayal of Myr Tariniel (and the seven cities)
  • Lanre sacs Myr Tariniel (one city is spared)
  • Selitos curses and temporarily banishes Lanre
  • Formation of the Amyr (Aleph's Choice)

Depending on how long the war was, Saicere could have been shaped before the War, for Lanre, or simply some time before Drossen Tor (based on average length of ownership something like 500 years.)

Thistle great idea. I think we can put Taborlin the Great on the list can't we- the silver age of Naming and all that with his enemy scyphus. The fact that one of the Chandrian was his enemy clearly dates it to after the formation of the Amyr. Perhaps we can put the Aturan empire on as well?

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Re grammarie of Bast:

What kind of magic do you think Bast is performing in the following part? Is it grammarie-glamourie or a sort of 'shaping' or...? He creates a living thing, out of ink and beer...? He almost seems as powerful as Felurian...

"Without taking his eyes from Chronicler, Bast laid his bloody palm flat on the table. The wood groaned and the broken timbers snapped back into place with a sudden crackling sound. Bast lifted his hand, then brought it down sharply on the table, and the dark runnels of ink and beer suddenly twisted and shaped themselves into a jet-black crow that burst into flight, circling the taproom once.

Bast caught it with both hands and tore the bird carelessly in half, casting the pieces into the air where they exploded into great washes of flame the color of blood."(ch 105)

I think this is glamourie actually, the art of making things seem. It's interesting that blood is used in some way to do it, but there was no crow which Bast tore up. It was all illusion.

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I think this is glamourie actually, the art of making things seem. It's interesting that blood is used in some way to do it, but there was no crow which Bast tore up. It was all illusion.

I agree. Grammarie is what he does with the phrases listed above...or so it seems?

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grinachu - that was my thought also, it was a glamourie.

On my first re-read of WMF (not quite through it yet), a couple of things have popped out at me:

1. On page 146, after Denna has hoodwinked Kvothe and his pals by playing dumb about how to play Corners ("To the gullibility of the well-educated," she toasts), practically her next breath is, 'So what's all this magic stuff you fellas do? How does that work?' Methinks she may know more than our arcanists do, and is just playing them to see what and how much they know!

2. Later, when Kvothe and Denna fight, she throws this at him: "I know things they don't teach at your precious University! Secret things!" (Page 496) I was also a lot more aware of all her braids/braiding/unbraiding/re-braiding of her hair this time through, thanks to a lot of comments on here.

3. Page 208: Fela - the namer! - dreams that "Valaritas", which is inscribed on the copper plate door in the archives, was "the name of an old dead king. His tomb was behind the door." Barrow king, anyone? :)

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Back to the coded letter from Denna (p. 314), I also noticed a weirdly capitalized section on page 137, a Chandrian entry Kvothe found in the archives. Here are the 2 sets of caps, put on your cryptographer hats:

p 137: M F D S A T A F P I

p 314: Y O O S S H C M W F M L (and maybe the P in Postscript)

I haven't sussed anything out of it, but maybe someone else here can...I'm looking at you, Marihathor! :)

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Ok so I finished the book a few days ago and liked it, but I had a few problems with it. First and foremost is that the book ends at pretty much the exact same point, plot-wise, as it began. Kvothe's got a little more money and a little more knowledge, but other than that nothing much has changed after nearly 1000 pages. Oh except that we now know that Kvothe is a super awesome sex machine. Which brings me to another problem i had with the book: Felurian. I can understand why she's in the book, but her section dragged on so long, with so little actually happening, that I had to force myself to keep reading in hopes that we might at some point get back to the story. And don't get me started on the initial sex scene between Kvothe and Felurian. And as soon as we're done with the fairy sex goddess we get thrown into the overlong Ademre portion of the book. Again I see why it's there, but 200 pages was way too much time to spend on it. And that's the biggest problem I had with the book, the thing I feared would happen, and did; it's overwritten. This book could have been 300 pages shorter (and probably published 2 years earlier) and it would have been a better book for it.

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Thistle great idea. I think we can put Taborlin the Great on the list can't we- the silver age of Naming and all that with his enemy scyphus. The fact that one of the Chandrian was his enemy clearly dates it to after the formation of the Amyr. Perhaps we can put the Aturan empire on as well?

It's... impossible to locate Taborlin in the narrative. Or at least I haven't been able to. I'm actually leaning toward him as a more contemporary figure.

My timeline jumps forward abruptly after Tehlu & Pals get empowered and the Amyr form. At the moment it's incomplete and difficult to just cut and paste.

Atur in brief

  • 1000 years ago - The Aturan Empire and the Tehlin Church

    The Lackless control most of the area East of Atur


  • They spread their Empire, the Church, and the Iron Law through most of the Four Corners over a 700 year period

    They burn Caluptena to destroy records and histories


  • 300 years ago - Nalto presides over the collapse of the Empire

    The Pontifex issues the Apura Prolycia Amyr


The wood groaned and the broken timbers snapped back into place with a sudden crackling sound.
I think this is glamourie actually, the art of making things seem. It's interesting that blood is used in some way to do it, but there was no crow which Bast tore up. It was all illusion.
I agree. Grammarie is what he does with the phrases listed above...or so it seems?
grinachu - that was my thought also, it was a glamourie.

He breaks the table (same chapter: 105) and then repairs it. The crow may be glamourie but the table isn't. It's not huge but I don't think rhyming or weaving are expressly required for grammarie. The really odd bit of that scene for me was Kvothe's utter indifference to Bast's, "He'll write what I say or I'll eat his heart in the market square."

Kettricken, I have no idea what to do with that, but nice catch on page 137.

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He breaks the table (same chapter: 105) and then repairs it. The crow may be glamourie but the table isn't. It's not huge but I don't think rhyming or weaving are expressly required for grammarie.

Weaving was used euphemistically on my part, not as literally weaving. Maybe you caught this, but wasn't sure from your wording here. I meant to say that the phrases have a pattern in rhythm and word choice. Sorry for any confusion if that arose :-)

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On my second read I've noticed two phrases standing out. My hardback doesn't search so well so I'm throwing it out there for further digital reader investigation.

1. I notice that not only Elodin, who we might expect it from, but Denna is mentioned as having fidgeting hands like Tempi

2. A couple of people are described as 'surprisingly good dancers' - Dennas patron, possibly Ambrose...I can't remember. This made me think (a bit out there) that Ambrose' eccentric father could be the patron

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It's... impossible to locate Taborlin in the narrative. Or at least I haven't been able to. I'm actually leaning toward him as a more contemporary figure.

....

The really odd bit of that scene for me was Kvothe's utter indifference to Bast's, "He'll write what I say or I'll eat his heart in the market square."

Wow I am falling further and further behind on this thread. There's stuff I wanted to ask Merihathor and I have some thoughts on the timeline as well, which really deserves more than my episodic attention.

Quick point on Taborlin- he's repeatedly referred to as a hero from the stories. Now what sort of timeline that is whether three hundred or three thousand I'm not sure but contemporary he's not. I understand the difficulties of dating of course, it's not a time line without dates.

To go back to Kvothe's indifference the question I have is how much is Kvothe aware of Bast's actions. It seems like he is aware Chronicler's presence is as a result of Bast's actions. It's interesting that in NOTW Kvothe destroys the elderberry bottle, but in WMF when Bast goes looking for it, Kvothe doesn't recognise that the elderberry was destroyed.

My first thought was that Kvothe had lost his sense of smell. Apart from that being a really weird plot point though, there's no other evidence to support it. It would diminish the pathos of losing mobility in his hands. My second thought was continuity error. My third thought, which I present for your comments, was that Kvothe knew what Bast was upto but deliberately chose not to interfere. Why, I can't imagine. To be clear, I'm not saying he suspects Bast of involvement with the mercenaries, but he does know that he is seeking to manipulate the story.

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I do think that Bast is on Kvothe's side (or even his son), but I'm afraid that his efforts to re-awake the old Kvothe will accidentally end up killing Kvothe...

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1. I notice that not only Elodin, who we might expect it from, but Denna is mentioned as having fidgeting hands like Tempi

Thanks for joining the discussion. I wondered this as well, but from looking over a few of her scenes, she's almost always fidgeting with her ring or the finger it's supposed to be on.

I'm not sure what it is but I am of the opinion that Bast might not be on Kvothe's "side" at all.

Ski, this was so clear to me in NotW. Now I'd be disappointed if it were the case. Though I'm not sure what a satisfying conclusion for Bast would be.

To go back to Kvothe's indifference the question I have is how much is Kvothe aware of Bast's actions. It seems like he is aware Chronicler's presence is as a result of Bast's actions. It's interesting that in NOTW Kvothe destroys the elderberry bottle, but in WMF when Bast goes looking for it, Kvothe doesn't recognise that the elderberry was destroyed.

There's at lease one more bottle of elderberry in there when Bastus goes looking in the morning. The blonde soldier grabs it that evening.

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