The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[Gaston de Foix]

Thanks for joining the discussion. I wondered this as well, but from looking over a few of her scenes, she's almost always fidgeting with her ring or the finger it's supposed to be on.

There's at lease one more bottle of elderberry in there when Bastus goes looking in the morning. The blonde soldier grabs it that evening.

Isn't that because Bast converts another bottle in elderberry?

[thistlepong]

Isn't that because Bast converts another bottle in elderberry?

My apologies; I didn't expect that interpretation at all. Why wouldn't he have just done that in the morning instead of mucking about trying stuff at random? Kvothe introduces him as a Glamorer, so I can dig the flaming crow being only an illusion. And he has some grammarie which he uses to extent the viability of the holly crown. But I don't really see any reason to belive he turned a sweet wine into another one. Occam again: Kvothe says there's more in there and there it is.

[Kettricken]

I'm not sure what it is but I am of the opinion that Bast might not be on Kvothe's "side" at all.

It seemed to me that Bast isn't much of a helper around the inn unless outsiders (except for Chronicler) are there. He pretty much lazes around unless Kvothe tricks him into doing work. Seems to imply a relationship of almost equals to me...

[Niamh?]

I'm sorry, I don't know how to make a reply to this comment from the previous thread in this thread, if you know what I mean.

unJon in the previous thread said:

"If alchemy is a 'science' then I think it's hard to say that sympathy is not a 'science.' Sympathy has rules with precise measurements and follows the law of the conservation of energy and diminishes with distance (or, and this is just a guess, the square of distance)."

My reply to this has nothing to do with anything, its just something I want to share.

Alchemy is scientifically possible. at least the part about forming gold from other base metals. Alchemy is the practice of transforming one element into another (specifically in this case, a precious metal such as gold)

There are two ways to do this, either by nuclear fission or nuclear fusion.

Nuclear fusion involves the fusing of hydrogon/helium nuclei or heavier nuclei of elements together to form a new element. However, as the nuclei you are working with get bigger, the harder it is and the more energy is required to fuse them.

It takes considerable energy to force nuclei to fuse, even those of the lightest element, hydrogen. This is because all nuclei have a positive charge (due to their protons), and as like charges repel, nuclei strongly resist being put too close together

For example, to fuse helium nuclei, this requires temperatures above 100 million K and heavier nuclei require even higher temperatures. So that method is out, although there is some lab work being done around this area of chemistry.

Nuclear fission, on the other hand is much easier. Rather than building up of elements from smaller nuclei, this involves the breaking down of larger nuclui, the so called 'heavier elements'.This is usually done by neutron bombardment. (using a particle accelerator)

The problem with this is there are many different isotopes of an element produced and not all of them are stable. Since there is only one stable gold isotope, 197Au, nuclear reactions must create this isotope in order to produce usable gold.

It can be done however, the element you need to split so happens to be platinum (or mercury), which as we know is much more valuable than gold. The gold that has been produced is also impure therefore it is worth less than its naturally formed counterpart.And the production costs of this greatly exceeds the market price of gold.

Sorry for the length, but once you get talking about something...heh. This is a basic explaination devoid of many of chemical details and procedures. Just wanted to share :D

[Kettricken]

p 137: M F D S A T A F P I

p 314: Y O O S S H C M W F M L (and maybe the P in Postscript)

Apologies for being self-referential...this code is like a popcorn kernel stuck in my teeth! This may be seeing what one is looking for, but "owl myths" are contained in those letters. There are a LOT of owl references in this book, and googling owl myths, there are many many differing and contradictory mythological owl references (wisdom, portend of death/bad juju, good luck, witches'/wizards' familiars). Any ideas?

[Gaston de Foix]

Apologies for being self-referential...this code is like a popcorn kernel stuck in my teeth! This may be seeing what one is looking for, but "owl myths" are contained in those letters. There are a LOT of owl references in this book, and googling owl myths, there are many many differing and contradictory mythological owl references (wisdom, portend of death/bad juju, good luck, witches'/wizards' familiars). Any ideas?

I wouldn't rush to conclude this is a code. I thought when I first read it that it was quaint writing of the sort that you sometimes find in medieval texts. Random capitalisations pop up all over the place.

Oh one more thing, assuming it is a code, which I have doubts about, the first one is 10 letters and therefore presumably one or at most two words. The second is 12 or 13 letters and therefore two or three at most. Does the first preceding letter or the first succeeding letter spell anything tangible?

[Kettricken]

I wouldn't rush to conclude this is a code. I thought when I first read it that it was quaint writing of the sort that you sometimes find in medieval texts. Random capitalisations pop up all over the place.

I would agree with you, except that none of Denna's other letters contain any random caps. Seems pointed to me.

[Kettricken]

Oh one more thing, assuming it is a code, which I have doubts about, the first one is 10 letters and therefore presumably one or at most two words. The second is 12 or 13 letters and therefore two or three at most. Does the first preceding letter or the first succeeding letter spell anything tangible?

Preceding/succeeding letters (both textual and alphabetical) spell nothing. I am open to any other ideas of approaches to code-breaking...the letters are fairly common ones, think Wheel of Fortune - R S T L N E - vowels etc. They really seem to almost have meaning!

Or, perhaps I am schizophrenic...seeing patterns that aren't there. :wacko:

[Gaston de Foix]

I would agree with you, except that none of Denna's other letters contain any random caps. Seems pointed to me.

what other letters has Denna written?

[Kettricken]

what other letters has Denna written?

She has sent several notes to Kvothe trying to meet up with him, such as when she was trying to give him the lute case she had made for him. There were 3 or 4 such notes to him at Anker's.

[Merihathor]

Edited to add: incoming novel. Sorry for the length!

Aethe/Rethe and Wereth, the Ademre and the Lethani:

I’ve come to the tentative conclusion that Rothfuss has taken bits from Indo-European and Indo-Iranian culture and mixed it with bits from Asian, Greek and Anglo-Saxon culture. I'll start with the over-arching themes and then look at linguistics a bit.

Starting with alchemy, we have a path used to gain enlightenment, in which a crucial step on the path includes the union between opposites. So iron (waking/mortal) marries copper (sleeping/immortal); within the book, roah wood is an example, as it’s said to have iron and copper in the wood itself. Dualism also surfaces in our world, such as in Asia with the yin yang symbol/philosophy, in the Middle East with religions like Zoroastrianism, and in many Gnostic traditions as well. During our time with the Ademre, we learn of the Lethani, which seems to be a philosophical mindset that seeps into martial art, thus uniting spirit and body. The Lethani evades concise, concrete definition, somewhat like real world philosophies like Taoism and Daena/Asha. Also like Taoism, the Lethani crosses from the spiritual to the physical in the form of martial disciplines, and is thus reminiscent of Tai Chi Chuan, Tao and I Ching. I listed Daena/Asha above. Does that name ring any bells? I explain about this in a bit.

I wanted to touch briefly on each of the aspects introduced to us about the Ademre: the Lathanta, the Lethani, and the Ketan.

The Lethanta

One facet of the Ademre culture that Kvothe encounters pivots around a sacred tree, the Latantha. I found a tree that might be the inspiration for the tree's name in the books. The tree is called Meliaceae Aglaia leptantha, and grows primarily in Indo-China, Thailand and Borneo. A compound within Aglaia leptantha was found during laboratory tests to effectively eradicate 20 kinds of human cancer cells that cause melanoma, and breast and brain cancer. (source: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060510/news_1c10scibrief.html). While the tree doesn’t seem to match the book description—other than its large leaves—I’m including it for fun ;-)

The Lethani

A second facet of the Ademre is expressed in their philosophy, called the Lethani. To begin a discussion, I'll start with the story about Tehlu that Trapis shares with Kvothe and the children, since this seems to include a discussion about a path/philosophy:

NTW, hardcover, page 159

Then Tehlu drew a line in the dirt of the road so that it lay between himself and all those who had come. "This road is like the meandering course of a life. There are two paths to take, side by side. Each of you are already traveling that side. You must choose. Stay on your own path, or cross to mine."

"But the road is the same, isn't it? It still goes to the same place," someone asked.

"Yes."

"Where does the road lead?"

"Death. All lives end in death, excepting one

Which doesn’t? The life that…?

. Such is the way of things."

"Then what does it matter which side a man is on?" It was Rengen asking these questions..."What is on our side of the road?"

"Pain," Tehlu said in a voice as hard and cold as stone. "Punishment."

"And your side?"

"Pain now," Tehlu said in the same voice. "Punishment now, for all that you have done. It cannot be avoided. But I am here too, this is my path."

"How do I cross?"

"Regret, repent, and cross to me."

Rengen stepped over the line to stand beside his God. Then Tehlu bent to pick up the hammer that the smith had dropped. But instead of giving it back, he struck Rengen with it as if it were a lash. Once. Twice. Thrice. And the third blow sent Rengen to his knees sobbing and crying out in pain. But after the third blow, Tehlu laid the hammer aside and knelt to look Rengen in the face. "You were the first to cross," he said softly so only the smith could hear. "It was a brave thing, a hard thing to do. I am proud of you. You are no longer Rengen, now you are Wereth, the forger of the path."

Then in WMF, we’re given a story about the simultaneous origin of the Ademre and the Lethani from Shehyn (which makes me think of the Shaolin monks everytime I read the name; I think it’s the vaguely similar sound). Aethe is highly skilled in archery and has a small school emerge around him related to this. A woman called Rethe joins him as a student, but they eventually have an argument and have a duel over this. Rethe arrives with no weapons, sits atop an unobstructed hill, and then is pierced near her heart with an arrow from Aethe. He regrets this action done in anger, and gives the leadership of the school to her. During her tenure, she tells him 99 stories that eventually become the Lethani.

The Ketan

The final facet I'll discuss relates to the Lethani, and seems to be a physical representation of this philosophy. The Ketan is a series of prescribed movements, and a seeming reflection of Tai Chi in our world. The word “ketan” may have been taken from Sanskrit for “flag, poem, and home.” In the story of Aethe and Rethe, the ribbon (flag) Rethe raises has been inscribed with a poem (from which arises the Lethani and Ademre):

Aethe, near my heart.

Without vanity, the ribbon.

Without duty, the wind.

Without blood, the victory.

I wonder, therefore, if the choice of this word to name this practice was intentional.

Regarding the two stories about paths/philosophies: I find it interesting that in one story, the creator of a path is a man, but in the second story, the creators are both man and woman—a marriage of opposites. I don’t know if these are different versions of the same story. I looked at the names linguistically to see if connections existed, and I’ll get to that later. However, I quoted them both as they both seem to be discussing an esoteric path and it made me wonder.

My interpretation (which I don't think anyone else will agree with, but c'est la vie): The story of Wereth is the church’s version of the Aethe/Rethe story. I don’t think the church thinks much of women, although we haven’t been told this outright. We're given no mention of Perial other than in the story of Tehlu, but all emphasis in this story is placed on how she relates to Tehlu and his deeds. She is mentioned as a good-hearted woman, and thus chosen for Tehlu’s avenue to rebirth. She does not seem to be raised in esteem much beyond being a means to tell Tehlu's story. The scene with Puppet, Kvothe, Willem and Simmon, where the Tehlian priest puppet strikes down the woman puppet asking a question sparked this thought in me. It’s weak, but I wonder if it’s there and if we won’t find out more about this later.

Anglo-Saxon culture

To continue with my thoughts--Aethe/Rethe became Wereth in the church, so I think this is a warping of the truth here because of church motives/ideals. Given the alchemical/dualistic themes we’ve seen in the books, the birth of the Lethani via a woman and a man coming together in some way makes sense to me when fit into the larger framework. So, I began to look for linguistic clues in history and mythology, knowing that Rothfuss dabbles and might be inspired to name in this way. The Ademre are described with light hair and grey eyes, so I chose to look at Anglo-Saxon culture for linguistic clues. I also picked Anglo-Saxon because of the use of Skarpi/Sceop as names, the use of Eld Vintic that has similar patterns to Anglo-Saxon poetry.

(an online source for Anglo-Saxon: http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b0623.html)

Note: Anglo-Saxon had many diphthongs; I picked the diphthongs that came the closest to the spelling in the books. Some of these letters have accents, which affect pronunciation. However, I don’t have a way to indicate these, so I’ve noted the accented letter at the end. A pronunciation guide: http://weofodthignen.livejournal.com/158550.html

Ge-thweran: to forge (poetic sense)

Rethe: right, just

Eathe(alternate spellings: Ethe/Ythe): easy, smooth (accent over a in 1st; accent over the e and y in alternates)

A-leithis: right path, improve (accent over a)

Laetan: to let, allow, suffer, forsake, cause

Laeth: to hate/loathe (accent over a)

Lath: injury, grief, pain (accent over a)

Lathettan: to be odious (accent over a)

Leohtian: to give light (accent over o and a)

Lathian: to call, invite (accent over a)

Latian: linger, to be slow

Latteh: harmful tree (accent over a and e)

Leoth: song, poem, verses, lay (accent over o)

If Aethe could be Eathe/Ethe/Ythe in Anglo-Saxon, then we have part of the path being “easy.” The path, the Chinvat Bridge, described in Zoroastrianism (see below) is easy for those that follow Daena/Asha, which is the concept of just/right thought, word and deed. This then brings us to the other half of the duo, Rethe. In Anglo-Saxon, her name means “right, just.” The two names seem to fit to create an overall symbol for the Lethani.

Proto-Indo-European

I also looked at Proto-Indo-European words, but this is very tenuous, as this takes reconstruction from current languages. I tend to trust some of the information linguists come up with, but recognize that their theories are built sometimes on sand. What I found:

Note: common consonant shifts in Indo-European languages includes v > w and l > r, among others

Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles;Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волосъ)? (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the Supreme thunder-god Perun, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology. No direct accounts survive, but reconstructions speculate that he may directly continue aspects of the Proto-Indo-European pantheon and that he may have been imagined as (at least partially) serpentine, with horns (of a bull, ram or some other domesticated herbivore), and a long beard. By all accounts, he was considered as an evil god with gray shades. One possibility is that the name derives from the Proto-Indo-European root *wel-, meaning wool. "Volos" is also the Russian word for "hair." This seems logical since Veles was believed to be deity of horned cattle. The name may also be related to Slavic terminology for oxen, for which the South Slavs and Russians all use "вол/vol."

Woah, right? So IF this is where Rothfuss got the name, then does this mean that Wereth is Veles is the Cthaeh/Encanis? That evil is what drives us down the right path, and thus, he “forges” the path, if indirectly? I think this is a huge stretch, but including it just in case. Let’s go back to more solid ground.

Justice/right path around the world

The Lethani seems to be a path focused on correct thought, word and deed, in that all must be just and/or reflect and honor the true nature of a person or thing. So, looking at justice in various incarnations, we have Themis and Dike (Greece origin), Forseti (Norse), Utu/Shamash (Sumerian/Mesopotamian), Ma’at (Egyptian), Mithra (Indo-Iranian) and Daena (Zoroastrian).

Themis: She is described as "of good counsel,” and is the embodiment of divine order, law, and custom, although this term is difficult to define.

Dike: (Greek: Δίκη, English translation: "justice") was the spirit of moral order and fair judgement based on immemorial custom, in the sense of socially enforced norms and conventional rules. She ruled over human justice, while her mother Themis ruled over divine justice. Her opposite was adikia ("injustice"): in reliefs on the archaic Chest of Cypselus preserved at Olympia,[6] a comely Dikē throttled an ugly Adikia and beat her with a stick. (Master Ash, is that you?)

Forseti: (Old Norse "the presiding one," actually "president" in Modern Icelandic and Faroese) is an Æsir god of justice and reconciliation in Norse mythology.

Utu/Shamash: (Akkadian Šamaš "Sun") was a native Mesopotamian deity and the sun god in the Akkadian, Assyrian and Babylonian pantheons. Shamash was the god of justice in Babylonia and Assyria, corresponding to Sumerian Utu.

Ma’at: Ancient Egyptian concept of truth, balance, order, law, morality, and justice. Maat was also personified as a goddess regulating the stars, seasons, and the actions of both mortals and the deities, who set the order of the universe from chaos at the moment of creation.

Mithra: Zoroastrian divinity (yazata) of covenant and oath. In addition to being the divinity of contracts, Mithra is also a judicial figure, an all-seeing protector of Truth, and the guardian of cattle, the harvest and of The Waters. Together with Rashnu "Justice" and Sraosha "Obedience", Mithra is one of the three judges at the Chinvat bridge, the "bridge of separation" that all souls must cross. He later became associated with the sun, and either became a messenger or a deity of his own right in other religions over time. Note: “Mith-“ became “Mir” in Middle Persian.

Daena: Zoroastrian concept representing insight and revelation, duty, faith, right conduct, social order, and a feminine noun which translates to "that which is seen or observed.” She is ambiguously associated with a reward for the faithful Zoroastrian in the afterlife. She is described as being finely dressed, and accompanied by dogs (Dalcenti, is that you?! :-p Kidding; maybe due to the chthonic nature of dogs in ancient culture).

Religion and myth:

Related to the dragon-slaying myth common throughout most mythologies is the "Sun in the rock" myth, of a heroic warrior deity splitting a rock where the Sun or Dawn was imprisoned.

Eastern religion/Gnosticism

Zoroastrianism:

Zoroastrianism was founded by the Prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra) in ancient Iran. However, it is debated to exactly when he lived, as estimates range from 1700 BCE to 500 BCE. An approximate date of 1500–1200 BCE has been established through archaeological evidence and linguistic comparisons with the Rig Veda.

According to Zoroastrian belief, when Zoroaster was 30 years old, he went into the Daiti river to draw water for a Haoma ceremony; when he emerged, he received a vision of Vohu Manah. After this, Vohu Manah took him to the other six Amesha Spentas, where he received the completion of his vision.

Zoroastrians believe that there is one universal and transcendent God, Ahura Mazda. He is said to be the one uncreated Creator to whom all worship is ultimately directed. Ahura Mazda's creation—evident as asha, truth and order—is the antithesis of chaos, which is evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict.

Dualistic deities:

Ahura Mazhda: "Mazda", or rather the Avestan stem-form Mazdā-, nominative Mazdå, reflects Proto-Iranian *Mazdāh (female). It is generally taken to be the proper name of the deity, and like its Sanskrit cognate medhā, means "intelligence" or "wisdom". Both the Avestan and Sanskrit words reflect Proto-Indo-Iranian *mazdhā-, from Proto-Indo-European *mn̩sdʰeh1, literally meaning "placing (*dʰeh1) one's mind (*mn̩-s)", hence "wise". Ahura designates deity. Perhaps this is where “Menda” came from for Tehlu

Ashuras: Those who are worthy of worship, including the Ahura Mazhda “trinity” and the seven emanations of Mazhda after creation, called the Amesha Spenta.

Amesha Spenta:

Modern images: http://www.pyracantha.com/Z/ameshas.html

The six divine sparks or emanations from Ahura Mahzda after creation (Ahura Mahzda being the head of these six).

• [Vohu] Manah, approximately meaning "[Good] Purpose"

• Asha [Vahishta] "[best] Truth/Righteousness"

• Khshathra [Vairya], "[Desirable] Dominion"

• [spenta] Armaiti, "[Holy] Devotion"

• Haurvatat, "Wholeness"

• Ameretat, "Immortality"

While Vohu Manah, Asha Vahishta, and Khshathra Vairya are consistently of neuter gender in Avestan grammar, in tradition they are considered masculine. Armaiti, Haurvatat, and Ameretat are feminine. The doctrine also has a physical dimension, in that each of the heptad is linked to one of the seven creations, which in ancient philosophy were the foundation of the universe:

• Ahura Mazda → Middle Persian Ohrmazd (NP Hōrmuzd) (together with, or represented by, Spenta Mainyu) is the guardian of humankind

• Vohu Manah → MP: Wahman (NP Bahman) of cattle (and all animal creation)

• Asha Vahishta → MP: Ardwahisht (NP Urdībihišt) of fire (and all other luminaries)

• Khshathra Vairya → MP: Shahrewar, of metals (and minerals)

• Spenta Armaiti → MP: Spandarmad, of earth

• Haurvatat → MP: Hordad (NP Xurdād) of water

• Ameretat → MP: Amurdad (NP Murdād) of plants

Yazatas: Thought to be the equivalent to Christianity’s angels.

Ahriman/Angra Mainyu: Yasht 15.43 assigns Angra Mainyu to the nether world, a world of darkness. He is the god of darkness, mockery, evil thought/word/deed. The seven daevas (demons) are created as a result of his destruction, as are the lesser hamkars.

Daevas: Old Avestan daēuua or daēva derives from Old Iranian *daiva, which in turn derives from Indo-Iranian *devá- "god," reflecting Proto-Indo-European *deiu̯ó with the same meaning. For derivatives in a European context, see Tyr. The Vedic Sanskrit cognate of Avestan daēuua is devá-, continuing in later Indic languages as dəv. Equivalents in Iranian languages include Old Persian daiva, Middle Persian dēw, New Persian dīv, Kurdish dêw (giant, monster) and Baluchi dêw (giant, monster). The Iranian word was borrowed into Armenian as dew and Georgian as devi.

Mirroring the task of the Amesha Spentas through which Ahura Mazda realized creation, the six antitheses are the instrument through which Angra Mainyu creates all the horrors in the world. Further, the arch-daevas of Vendidad 10.9 and 19.43 are identified as the antithetical counterparts of the Amesha Spentas. The six arch-demons as listed in the Epistles of Zadspram (WZ 35.37) and the Greater Bundahishn (GBd. 34.27) are:

• Akoman of "evil thought" opposing Wahman/Bahman of "good thought" (Av. Aka Manah versus Vohu Manah)

• Indar that freezes the minds of the righteous opposing Ardawahisht of "best truth" (Av. Indar versus Asha Vahishta).

• Nanghait of discontent opposing Spendarmad of "holy devotion" (Av. Naonhaithya/Naonghaithya versus Spenta Armaiti)

• Sawar/Sarvar of oppression opposing Shahrewar of "desirable dominion" (Av. Saurva versus Kshathra Vairya)

• Tauriz/Tawrich of destruction opposing Hordad of "wholeness" (Av. Taurvi versus Haurvatat)

• Zariz/Zarich who poisons plants opposing Amurdad of "immortality" (Av. Zauri versus Ameretat)

Hamkars: Demons of lesser rank, in a nutshell.

Neutral concepts:

Daena—Zoroastrian concept representing insight and revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daena ).

Asha— commonly summarized in accord with its contextual implications of 'truth' and 'right(eousness)', 'order' and 'right working,” but it is a difficult term to pin down. The polar opposite of Asha is Druj, or “lies, deception” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asha ).

Zoroastrianism is often compared with the Manichaeism, which is nominally an Iranian religion but has its origins in the Middle-Eastern Gnosticism. Superficially, such a comparison may be apt, as both are uncompromisingly dualistic, and Manichaeism nominally adopted many of the Yazatas for its own pantheon. Gherardo Gnoli, in The Encyclopaedia of Religion, says that "we can assert that Manichaeism has its roots in the Iranian religious tradition and that its relationship to Mazdaism, or Zoroastrianism, is more or less like that of Christianity to Judaism". As religious types, they are, however, quite different: Manichaeism equated evil with matter and good with spirit, and was therefore particularly suitable as a doctrinal basis for every form of asceticism and many forms of mysticism. Zoroastrianism, on the other hand, rejects every form of asceticism, has no dualism of matter and spirit (only of good and evil), and sees the spiritual world as not very different from the natural one, and the word "paradise" (via Latin and Greek from Avestan pairi.daeza, literally "stone-bounded enclosure") applies equally to both. Manichaeism's basic doctrine was that the world and all corporeal bodies were constructed from the substance of Satan, an idea that is fundamentally at odds with the Zoroastrian notion of a world that was created by God and that is all good, and any corruption of it is an effect of the bad. From what may be inferred from many Manichean texts and a few Zoroastrian sources, the adherents of the two religions (or at least their respective priesthoods) despised each other intensely.

Symbolism:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Faravahar-Gold.svg

The Faravahar symbolizes wisdom (the figure of the older man rising from circle), kingship/divine right to rule (the ring held out by the figure), the sun, fire and immortality (the ring encircling the figure), power (the wings), and truth (3 rows of feathers in the wings and in the tail: right thought, words and right deeds—asha). The figure arises out of asha, symbolized by the tail. Asha is also reflected in the wings—one side (our left) to designate what we should face or turn towards, the right side that which we should avoid (bad thought/word/deed). The same holds for the two ribbons on either side: the left side, under the face, for the Amesha Spenta, the right for the Angra Minu. I don’t want to get into a huge discourse over this image and its symbolism in order to keep this as brief as possible. However, I’ve written peer-reviewed papers on this image, if anyone wants to read them for more information.

The Egyptian winged sun, in one of its incarnations: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Winged_sun_sharpe.png (notice the two snakes, or uraei—symbols of divine power and protection; this is vaguely reminiscent of the caduceus).

Alchemical echoes here-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Winged_Sun_alchemical.jpg

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism )

The arrow/archery imagery in WMF:

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ashur_god.jpg )

I don’t really see a connection, other than it has similar imagery as the faravahar symbol and perhaps that Rothfuss saw this and wove it into the story with Aethe/Rethe. Pure conjecture ;-)

Texts of some import to our story:

The Book of Arda Viraf is a Zoroastrian religious text of Sassanid era in Middle Persian language, describing the dream of Viraf through the next world. Arda Viraf is chosen for his piety to undertake a journey to the next world in order to prove the truth of Zoroastrian beliefs, after a period when the land of Iran had been troubled by the presence of confused and alien religions. He drinks wine and a hallucinogen, after which his soul travels to the next world where it is greeted by a beautiful woman named Den who represents his faith and virtue. Crossing the Chinvat bridge, he is then conducted by "Srosh, the pious and Adar, the angel" through the "star track", "moon track" and "sun track" – places outside of heaven reserved for the virtuous who have nevertheless failed to conform to Zoroastrian rules. In heaven, Viraf meets Ahura Mazda who shows him the souls of the blessed (ahlav). Each person is described living an idealised version of the life he or she lived on earth, as a warrior, agriculturalist, shepherd or other profession.[4] With his guides he then descends into hell to be shown the sufferings of the wicked. Having completed his visionary journey Viraf is told by Ahura Mazda that the Zoroastrian faith is the only proper and true way of life and that it should be preserved in both prosperity and adversity.

The Chinvat Bridge (Avestan Cinvatô Peretûm, "bridge of judgement" or "beam-shaped bridge"[1]) in Zoroastrianism is the bridge which separates the world of the living from the world of the dead. All souls must cross the bridge upon death.

The Bridge's appearance varied depending on the observer's asha, or righteousness. As related in the text known as the Bundahishn, if a person had been wicked, the bridge would appear narrow and the demon Vizaresh would emerge[2] and drag their soul into the druj-demana (the House of Lies), a place of eternal punishment and suffering similar to the concept of Hell.[3] However, if a person's good thoughts, words and deeds in life were many, the bridge would be wide enough to cross, and the Daena, a spirit representing revelation, would appear and lead the soul into the House of Song.

Some related religions, pulled out to emphasize common themes--

Manichaeism:

Mani began preaching at an early age and was possibly influenced by contemporary Babylonian-Aramaic movements such as Mandaeanism, and Aramaic translations of Jewish apocalyptic writings similar to those found at Qumran (such as the book of Enoch literature).

Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God) was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan). Humanity, the world and the soul are seen as the byproduct of the battle between God's proxy, Primal Man, and Satan. The human person is seen as a battleground for these powers: the soul defines the person, but it is under the influence of both light and dark. This contention plays out over the world as well as the human body.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism )

Mazdakism:

In addition, Mazdakism is reported, in one late work, to have distinguished three elements (Fire, Water, Earth), and four Powers (Discernment, Understanding, Preservation and Joy, corresponding to the four chief officials of the Sassanid state[5]), seven Viziers and twelve Spiritual Forces. When the Four, the Seven and the Twelve were united in a human being, he was no longer subject to religious duties. In addition, God was believed to rule the world through letters, which held the key to the Great Secret that should be learnt. This description suggests that Mazdakism was, in many ways, a typical Gnostic sect.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdak )

Yazdanism:

There are seven cycles to the life of this universe. Six of these have already happened, while the seventh one is to yet unfold. In each cycle, there is a set of six reincarnated persons (one female, five male) who will herald the new cycle and preside over it (the seventh one in the set being the ever-lasting, the ever-present Almighty). The reincarnation of the deity could be in one of the three forms: a reflection incarnation, a guest incarnation, or the highest form embodiment incarnation. The principal feature of the Yazdani faiths is the belief in seven benevolent divine beings that defend the world from an equal number of malign entities.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdanism )

Mandaeism:

Only pulling this out because of the similarities to Tehlu’s name, so it might be the basis or where Rothfuss came up with the name.

In the Shahnameh (Persian for "Book of Kings"), written by Ferdowsi Toosi referred to a man named Mardas, an Amir lived about 800 years ago in the southwest of Iran (dasht-e savaran-e neizeh gozar) who seems to be one of the mandaecs, because he prayed to god after washing himself all the time especially at dawn. This religion also is called Moghtaseleh means "those who wash themselves a lot" (Ghosl in Arabic means Bathing) The term comes from Classical Mandaic Mandaiia and appears in Neo-Mandaic as Mandeyānā. On the basis of cognates in other Aramaic dialects, Semiticists such as Mark Lidzbarski and Rudolf Macuch have translated the term manda, from which Mandaiia derives, as "knowledge" (cf. Aramaic מַנְדַּע mandaʻ in Dan. 2:21, 4:31, 33, 5:12; cpr. Hebrew: מַדַּע‎ maddaʻ without the nasal insert). This etymology suggests that the Mandaeans may well be the only sect surviving from late Antiquity to identify themselves explicitly as Gnostics.

Perial:

The Greeks (who tended earlier to use names related to "Median") began in the fifth century BC to use adjectives such as Perses, Persica or Persis for Cyrus the Great's empire (a word meaning "country" being understood).[6] Such words were taken from the Old Persian Pārsa - the name of the people whom Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid dynasty first ruled (before he inherited or conquered other Iranian Kingdoms) and of whom he was one. This tribe gave its name to the region where they lived (the modern day province is called Fars/Pars) but the province in ancient times was larger than its current area. In Latin, the name for the whole empire was Persia.

In the later parts of the Bible, where this kingdom is frequently mentioned (Books of Esther, Daniel, Ezra and Nehemiah), it is called "Paras" (Hebrew פרס), or sometimes "Paras u Madai" (פרס ומדי) i.e. "Persia and Media".

More word play:

Greek word mantes (meaning prophet or fortune teller)—Manet, aka Rothfuss himself.

Tyr and Veles and animal symbolism—owl, wolf, snake, bull. Wolf/Owl: Bredon. Tyr absorbed into Odin, the one-eyed god, later in time. Selitos one-eye? I see a lot of this playing going on, where Rothfuss takes images, or kennings in you will, for heroic figures and weaves them in such a way as to hint at identities. We don’t have all the information, of course, so these are still glimpses in the fog.

Given the descriptions for Daena in Zoroastrianism, I’m wondering if this is where Rothfuss got the name for Denna. I’m not sure what he’s trying to say about her with this name choice, but I imagine it will become clear with the third book.

I probably could do a better job at synthesis, but I’m pressed for time as usual, so I’ll have to leave these pieces dangling for now. I hope I’m not too obscure and scattered and haven’t confused anyone. I'm sorry for the rushed feel and disorganization :-)

[Gaston de Foix]

She has sent several notes to Kvothe trying to meet up with him, such as when she was trying to give him the lute case she had made for him. There were 3 or 4 such notes to him at Anker's.

you are right, thanks for reminding me. Is it plausible to say the random capitalization is because she's drunk? Again my real concern is, how would this fit into the plot? I thought the scene with Nina in Wise Man's Fear was a little heavy handed, little more than a plot contrivance really. Kvothe tracing a book he has marked as worthless and discovering a hidden message ther? doesn't seem likely and would be just as awkward to write I am sure.

[Kettricken]

you are right, thanks for reminding me. Is it plausible to say the random capitalization is because she's drunk? Again my real concern is, how would this fit into the plot? I thought the scene with Nina in Wise Man's Fear was a little heavy handed, little more than a plot contrivance really. Kvothe tracing a book he has marked as worthless and discovering a hidden message ther? doesn't seem likely and would be just as awkward to write I am sure.

I don't believe it is a plot point as much as a hint to us as readers. Just for fun and to show off his mad skillz!

[Thaykora]

you are right, thanks for reminding me. Is it plausible to say the random capitalization is because she's drunk? Again my real concern is, how would this fit into the plot? I thought the scene with Nina in Wise Man's Fear was a little heavy handed, little more than a plot contrivance really. Kvothe tracing a book he has marked as worthless and discovering a hidden message ther? doesn't seem likely and would be just as awkward to write I am sure.

Unless, of course, we're all just as gullible as several characters imply to each other.

I often find it important to remind myself that I should not read a book as if I was watching the plot take place in my "minds eye". Instead, it's better to remember that every single word, descriptor, and metaphor is carefully chosen to serve a purpose. Especially so from Rothfuss.

Then again, perhaps Rothfuss has been too distracted building snow men during those long winters up North? :laugh:

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I don't believe it is a plot point as much as a hint to us as readers. Just for fun and to show off his mad skillz!

Hmmm...I can't create any complete messages using all the capital letters. But maybe a message is hidden only in the random caps letters.

[Kettricken]

Hmmm...I can't create any complete messages using all the capital letters. But maybe a message is hidden only in the random caps letters.

Random caps only are what I listed before; so frustrating! Thanks to anyone trying to crack this code. (which is still what I think it is...)

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Random caps only are what I listed before; so frustrating! Thanks to anyone trying to crack this code. (which is still what I think it is...)

God that's frustrating. I can't make any sense of it.

[Thaykora]

Random caps only are what I listed before; so frustrating! Thanks to anyone trying to crack this code. (which is still what I think it is...)

If you're quite sure of it, here's a website with some Cipher-tools:

http://rumkin.com/tools/cipher/

[Merihathor]

I saw the capital letters and also came to the conclusion that it's probably a hidden message, but I'm not good at this sort of thing. I don't know if the letter sets even go together. In any case, I'll keep fiddling with it. One of us is bound to come up with something, even if it's not the right thing :-)

[thistlepong]

Random caps only are what I listed before; so frustrating! Thanks to anyone trying to crack this code. (which is still what I think it is...)

p 137: M F D S A T A F P I

p 314: Y O O S S H C M W F M L (and maybe the P in Postscript)

p137: (nothing) Even reducing it to SAFPI (the rest make some sense being capitalized)

p314: WMF MY SCHOOL (which at the time includes the ocean in a storm, the anger of a gentle man, and based on some of y'all theories nights with no moon...)

Given the descriptions for Daena in Zoroastrianism, I’m wondering if this is where Rothfuss got the name for Denna. I’m not sure what he’s trying to say about her with this name choice, but I imagine it will become clear with the third book.

Fascinating post again, Merihathor. The above bit seemed to score your post or at least jump out at me each time it came up. I'll admit this was 'cause I think Denna's is the righteous path. We don't see nearly as much of her, but weighed against Kvothe she looks pretty good. He's brutal; she's flexible. In the one physcial confrontation we're shown, she threatens and controls with her knife rather than assaulting with it. He's thoughtless; she's compassionate. There are a few ways to come at this, but their relationship is a good one. She loves him. He doesn't even consider it a possibility to love her. He's a theif. She's clever, but receives gifts given freely. It's interesting to see that reflected in your post. I appreciate the wide net you cast.