The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[Zizoz]

Why does Sim have to be a king to die?

[Sylvester]

If we assume that Kvothe kills him, it makes sense since Kvothe is a Kingkiller...

But it's true that nothing seems to indicate that he dies, I mean that Kvothe never seems to be particularly melancholic or feel any special emotion towards Sim... I must admit I cannot think of any quotes indicating that something bad will happen to Sim...

On a completely different matter, I'm extremely curious about your opinions on what is perhaps the biggest mystery of the storyline and, for me, one of the most interesting ones, along with the Lackless Box: the Chandrian's purpose. I mean, the fact that Arliden says he's discovered it shows that it can be done, and that's why he was probably killed, so "what's their plan? Chandrian, Chandrian..."

Any ideas?

I'd probably post my own later on, but I miss some substantial quotes to support it, so I'll just be searching for them now...

[Gaston de Foix]

Sylvester, the reason for Sim being the target is that Caesura is referred to as the Poet-Killer and Sim is a reasonably talented poet.

[Kettricken]

so I just got a message from Pat, and he basically said that there are other things in WMF that deserve more attention than this code. Basically I take this as confirmation that there is no hidden message although he didnt say so outright.

Yes, it feels cool to say I got a message from Pat.

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!! :)

Yeah, I never figured the possible code was anything pivotal, more that I'm into word puzzles and it really bugs me not to be able to solve/find a solution...

[Merihathor]

If we assume that Kvothe kills him, it makes sense since Kvothe is a Kingkiller...

But it's true that nothing seems to indicate that he dies, I mean that Kvothe never seems to be particularly melancholic or feel any special emotion towards Sim... I must admit I cannot think of any quotes indicating that something bad will happen to Sim...

On a completely different matter, I'm extremely curious about your opinions on what is perhaps the biggest mystery of the storyline and, for me, one of the most interesting ones, along with the Lackless Box: the Chandrian's purpose. I mean, the fact that Arliden says he's discovered it shows that it can be done, and that's why he was probably killed, so "what's their plan? Chandrian, Chandrian..."

Any ideas?

I'd probably post my own later on, but I miss some substantial quotes to support it, so I'll just be searching for them now...

If the conversation between Haliax and Selitos is accurate or close to the true conversation, then their plan is to destroy the world so that Haliax can have oblivion (or so he hopes) to escape his pain and joylessness. They are prevented from this, in theory, by the Amyr and perhaps the angels, as well.

To answer an earlier question about why Sim has to be a king to die: because this is a title of Kvothe's--Kingkiller. The question is--who is the king that Kvothe kills. So, Thistlepong's possible theory is that the king is Simmon. I hope that clears it up for you :-)

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Sylvester, the reason for Sim being the target is that Caesura is referred to as the Poet-Killer and Sim is a reasonably talented poet.

And we all know how Kvothe feels about poets.

On that note, does anyone remember Kvothe and Ambroses first encounter? Ambrose was writing poetry. Or attempting too.

[Merihathor]

And we all know how Kvothe feels about poets.

On that note, does anyone remember Kvothe and Ambroses first encounter? Ambrose was writing poetry. Or attempting too.

Yeah, I remember. Was a funny scene, so stuck with me.

Some bits and pieces regarding the first capital letter puzzle that you guys might find vaguely interesting:

First set, regarding the Chandrian

My approach was to take the capitalized words and work them into some kind of story (I did try just the letters, but got nowhere):

Man

Farmer

Dannerlings

Spinners

Asse

Tanner

Arrival

Frustrating

Profitless

Inquiry

The name of the place that this writer was gathering his information was Hillsboro. Seemingly unrelated, the name of the place where the wedding party was killed by the Chandrian was Borrorill. Kvothe thinks that this place is called "Borrow Hill," but it sounded otherwise because of the people's accent (p. 532, hardcover NTW). During his time there with Denna, he speaks with a local pig herdsman, and they talk about having dinner together, but the herdsman's accent makes the word sound like "danner." All these pieces together made me wonder if Hillsboro and Borrorill are the same place, but that the name has naturally altered over time. If so, then my muddled, weak guess for this puzzle is: A farmer (Man, Farmer) in Hillsboro starting asking questions (Inquiry), but the arrival of a tinker (Tanner [i pulled this from the "Tinker Tanner" song]) who spun (Spinners, Asse [spider = silk = weaving = storytelling]) a story to cover up the truth made the inquiry frustrating and profitless. The questions were about the Chandrian vase, which was later buried on the farmer's land. I have more wonderings about the tinker below.

Meh. See? Not that great. Maybe someone else will have better luck with piecing this together with either my approach or another (better) one.

Regardless, I then started thinking about tinkers, and why they are so prevalent in the books. I re-read the tinker stories and started to wonder if the tinker figure is Selitos. I'm thinking of the story of Jax, where he bargains with the tinker to trade Jax's happiness for all the tinker owns, even his staff and hat (of which the tinker is quite fond). This tinker, with his hat and staff, reminded me of Odin, who often traveled in the mortal world with a staff, blue cloak and wide-brimmed hat. Some of Odin's 200+ names reflect this: "Broad Hat," "Staffbearer." In any case, the link isn't very strong and it's just a thought I had. Why include references, over and over, to "Tinker Tanner" if this doesn't have meaning? That was my thought, at least.

Other various and unrelated thoughts:

"It was the cut-flower sound of a man who is waiting to die." This phrase made me wonder if Rothfuss means more than flowers we place on graves, but is he hinting here that Kvothe took a blossom from the Cthaeh's tree?

Are Puppet and Teccam the same person?

Aura is the goddess of the breeze/wind in ancient Greece. This made me wonder about Auri.

I tried to put the two Lackless poems side by side to connect the two, and this is my attempt:

• ring unworn - ring that's not for wearing (ring of wood? or ring of some kind from Vintas...is this ring the key for the round openings in the VALARITAS door?)
  
• time that is right - under her black dress (night with a full moon, black dress being a euphemism for night?)
  
• candle without light - her husband's candle (sympathy wax, but I'm not sure of this anymore)
  
• son of the blood - husband's rocks ("rocks" being a euphemism for testicles, and thus indirectly, descent?)
  
• door that holds the flood - door without handles (Archives door? or a waystone in the ruins of Myr Tariniel in the mountains near the end of the Great Stone road?)
  
• thing held in tight keeping - secret she's been keeping (that her family holds the key)
  

Regarding sygaldry: "Teh" means "lock," which made me think of Tehlu, but I don't know if this has meaning or not.

[Marsala]

On a completely different matter, I'm extremely curious about your opinions on what is perhaps the biggest mystery of the storyline and, for me, one of the most interesting ones, along with the Lackless Box: the Chandrian's purpose. I mean, the fact that Arliden says he's discovered it shows that it can be done, and that's why he was probably killed, so "what's their plan? Chandrian, Chandrian..."

Any ideas?

I'd probably post my own later on, but I miss some substantial quotes to support it, so I'll just be searching for them now...

The picture of Haliax on the Chandrian vase showed him surrounded by the phases of the moon. His purpose is likely connected to the moon, either completing or reversing Iax's theft of it.

[jurble]

Sim does not get killed by Kvothe, reread the scene, Kvothe is not shocked or saddened by "Kaysera, the poet-killer", he's bemused. The most likely origin of the appellation poet-killer is due to ignorant villagers not knowing what a Caesura is, and having half-heard a break in a poem's verse to be breaking a poet in half or something silly.

[GM Pierce]

I don't have this figured out well enough to even make a good question, so I'll throw it out for what it's worth.

It dawns on me that in an obscure way Kvothe may not be "illegitimate". Natalia Lackless was not married to Kvothe's father. She may have been bethrothed to someone in the nobility.

In British law betrothal had some of the aspects of an actual marriage even though not consummated: Richard III of England had his older brother's children declared illegitimate on the grounds their father had been betrothed to another woman when he married their mother.

The giving a ring (possibly a ring not for wearing) has any number of possible meanings.

[AverageGuy]

It dawns on me that in an obscure way Kvothe may not be "illegitimate". Natalia Lackless was not married to Kvothe's father. She may have been bethrothed to someone in the nobility.

In British law betrothal had some of the aspects of an actual marriage even though not consummated: Richard III of England had his older brother's children declared illegitimate on the grounds their father had been betrothed to another woman when he married their mother.

I'm not really following here. How would being betrothed to a nobleman make Kvothe legitimate?

[GM Pierce]

I'm not really following here. How would being betrothed to a nobleman make Kvothe legitimate?

In some cultures, betrothal is considered to be an actual marriage. If the woman rejects completing the marriage it's a great scandal, but her children could still be considered descendents of the one she was betrothed to. Kvothe might not exactly be legitimate, but he might still be the heir of our supposed noble. In the real world, the laws of inheritance are very very weird.

That may be too much of a stretch plot-wise, or it may be that I presented the idea badly. If it has any validity, there will be a clues elsewhere in the story.

[Gaston de Foix]

The picture of Haliax on the Chandrian vase showed him surrounded by the phases of the moon. His purpose is likely connected to the moon, either completing or reversing Iax's theft of it.

"Kill the

Chandrian? Kill Lanre? How could I even begin? I would have more luck trying to steal the moon. At

least I knew where to look for the moon at night." (NOTW, Chapter 27)

"It would be easier for me to get a piece of the moon than that much money.2 (NOTW, Chapter 36)

I think these quotes support your argument.

It's also possible that his power is somehow connected with the Moon or waxes and wanes with the moon. We know that candles are used in Taborlin the Great kind of magic and Lanre seems to have two candles under his hand. Here's an alternative quote from NOTW.

"There was one with no face, just a hood with nothing inside. There was a mirror by

his feet and there was a bunch of moons over him. You know, full moon, half moon, sliver moon." (Chapter 82< NOTW).

Not really sure why I am commenting on my own post, but I just had a further thought while in the tube about the Chandrian's purpose.

As an aside, I do think the relationship between Chandrian & the Moon is significant and the sanskrit meaning of Chandrian is a big clue as was mentioned by someone else in an earlier version of this thread. Post on this coming, hopefully soon.

Back to the topic of the Chandrian's purpose.

Arliden apparently knew what their purpose was,

1. but didn't connect it to any immediate threat to his life or his safety from either the Chandrian or any third parties.

2. We have this quote from Chapter 12, NOTW about his methodology:

"For months it 'was stories about Lanre. Then he started gathering old faerie stories too, legends about bogies and shamble-men. Then he began to ask questions about the Chandrian. . . .

That was months ago. Over the last half year he had asked more about the Chandrian and less about

Lanre, Lyra, and the rest."

3. didn't know a great deal (if anything) about Naming, the purpose of Greystones, or sympathy, shaping, the Creation War etc.

There's something a little contradictory about Arliden's approach here. He seems to accept the Chandrian are real and speaks of them in the present tense and of course we are told he has worked out their purpose.

But he never takes them seriously. I just don't know how to make sense of that...

[Spaceman Hobbes]

In some cultures, betrothal is considered to be an actual marriage. If the woman rejects completing the marriage it's a great scandal, but her children could still be considered descendents of the one she was betrothed to. Kvothe might not exactly be legitimate, but he might still be the heir of our supposed noble. In the real world, the laws of inheritance are very very weird.

That may be too much of a stretch plot-wise, or it may be that I presented the idea badly. If it has any validity, there will be a clues elsewhere in the story.

We really don't know how legitimacy and illegitimacy function in Kvothe's world. And even if it does become an issue, bastards of merit, for lack of a better term, could be legitimized. Having your uncle being Maer might help too.

[Zizoz]

I burst out laughing when I read "Frustrating Profitless Inquiry". I think that's the answer.

[Thaykora]

I took a couple days to write something this time. At first it was two different posts, but they wanted to play together, so I let them. This resulted in sad humor.

If you consider Ambrose as one of the most-likely characters to become the King that Kvothe kills to earn the title of 'Kingkiller', then this post might make you think twice. Although, I suppose it could also trigger a terrible, twice-thinking, illness. With a rash.

If you're like me, and you enjoy the challenge of hunting for answers to the handful of questions you still have, then this post can also be an example of a skeptic-like approach. If you're lucky, it might even help develop treatments for chronic tail-chasing.

______________fancy line break________________

With the sheer number of ways each reader may uniquely interpret the books and bring about subsequent discussion, the case for the King (in Kingkiller) could end up being made for dozens of characters in the book. Since little is agreed upon in terms of narrator reliability, we could fill hundreds of threads trying to play connect the dots- without ever seeing one dot.

Keeping that in mind, this how I might approach the Ambrose-king idea.

Many discussions tag Ambrose as a serious candidate for the King that Kvothe kills. The major reasoning usually follows: One, he is a major antagonist in the story. Two, he is in-line to become a King. Three, Ambrose writes poetry and Kvothe's sword is referred to as "the poet-killer". In short, if you're looking for an easy meal, Ambrose is your guy.

I'll break down the first two reasons at the bottom, but let's start with number three since it has a fancy list. If poetry is part of any yardstick for finding this Gonna-Die-King, it's probably fair to note that one of the main reasons for picking Ambrose might also force us to consider a few others...

Indulgers in Poetry: (a proofreading free zone, feeling lazy)

• 
  
• Arliden claims to hate poetry, but seems to recite one about greystones (though it's possible to attribute the quote to Laurian or Kvothe)
  
• Laurian seems to make up her own version of the greystone poem (although you may be able to attribute the quote to Arliden)
  
• Kvothe recites a Lackless poem he heard, his mom over-hears
  
• Imre is said to support poets (an unknown number of would-be dead-poet-kings could be hiding here)
  
• Wilem and Simmon urge Kvothe to write poetry for Denna
  
• Wilem writes a poem insulting Ambrose
  
• Elodin recommends 2 books that are all poetry
  
• Geoffrey came to Imre to make a name for himself with his poetry
  
• Simmon studies Eld Vintic poetry for 3 terms
  
• The Chancellor teaches Simmon Eld Vintic poetry
  
• Puppet is said to have read Eld Vintic poetry to Sim when they first meet
  
• Sim is said to be 'dangerously well informed about poetry'
  
• Kvothe admits to reading poetry in Junpui!
  
• Rethe writes 4 lines of poetry in Shehyn's story
  
• Kvothe spontaneously makes a poem for Penthe
  
• Penthe spontaneously makes a poem for Kvothe (Kvothe claims this is the first poem ever made for him)
  
• Meluan Lackless may be courted with dozens of poems
  
• Kvothe resists an urge to show Denna 'poems' he has written
  
• Kvothe implies that 'something' took letters, songs and one poem to achieve (context partially implies he was referring the courting of Meluan, on behalf of the Maer)
  
• Kvothe tells us that only one thing could move him to the 'madness' of poetry
  
• A young trouper boy recites his own Lackless poem
  
• 'the innkeeper' recites what is likely a poem, about Kvothe's rings
  
• Chronicler recites the first two bits of a poem about "bleeders"
  
• Kvothe finishes the rest of it in thought
  

Maybe-Indulgers of Poetry (or, a list of people caught "reciting" something)

• 
  
• Arliden recites "The Ballad of Ben, Brewer Supreme"
  
• Arliden appears to recite a monologue while Kvothe reads along (one and a half times)
  
• Kvothe/Pike/Lin/Nalt (someone) recites one line about Tehlu
  
• Kvothe recites the first ten lines of Ve Ullora Sartane to Nina
  
• Lorren recites University rules twice, possibly from the Rerum Codex
  
• Lorren recites from a book that prompts Kvothe to wonder which book it was, Rerum Codex?
  
• Kvothe recites a list of materials he needs to make sympathy lamps, to Jaxim
  
• Kvothe recites University rules, possibly from the Rerum Codex
  
• Kvothe recites a list of 'things women do' to Celean
  
• Magwyn recites the Atas of 'Saicere' to Kvothe
  
• Kvothe recites the Atas of 'Caesura' to Magwyn
  
• Kvothe recites 'the Atas' to all who are present during the 'stone trial'
  
• Alveron claims to be able to recite the Eight Oaths of Atreyon from memory
  
• Chronicler 'numbly' recites sounds after Kvothe asks to be shown 'the consonants'
  
• Haliax asks a question of Cinder "like a schoolmaster reciting a forgotten lesson"
  
• Trapis' story had "stately and grand" parts that Kvothe describes "as if he had been reciting them"
  
• Tempi says, "The Lethani does not put down roots in fear" and Kvothe describes this as sounding recited
  

After all that, I probably still missed some. Clearly, if Ambrose is someone we consider to be a candidate for this king, we have to also consider names on that list. Or we have to decide that the "poet-killer" sword name doesn't imply a connection, or is a red-herring. Personally, I suspect a red-herring or a joke.

The other 2 reasons Ambrose is popular (with no cool lists):

First, citing his commonly accepted antagonist role doesn't reveal anything about his character; all it reveals is that many people commonly accept him as an antagonist- Hell, main antagonist or not, Rothfuss makes a point of reminding us not to expect a traditional ending. Expectations have no bearing on what may happen in the story. The only thing they might do is show you more of what you're expecting to see- like that rash I mentioned earlier.

For the second argument, I don't see enough reason to take Ambrose's (father's) peerage as a hard fact OR a lie. Both sides are weak. Consider that Ambrose's father is brought up often, and his wealth/power is usually mentioned, but only one person ever clearly states his line to the throne, and that is Sim/Simmon.

A few other details that stand out as odd, if anything they make Simmon feel less reliable: Sim only mentions it once in each book, and during extremely similar conditions. Both occasions Manet and Wilem are also at the table, both times Manet appears to elicit this information out of him, and both times Manet quickly takes-back control of the conversation. Being a bit strange, I do find myself asking- Why is Simmon the only person who seems to have access to this knowledge, and is willing to provide it? Coincidence? Jakis-fanboy with a crush? Does Manet suspect it!?

One final consideration: At no clear point do we see a narrative voice (proven to be neutral) that reveals the inner workings of Sim. The same is true for many characters, maybe even all of them. In other words, we can't just assume he is perfectly credible because we list him as one of Kvothe's friends.

If I missed any huge details, I'll hit myself, and maybe fix it. Also, writing a post over a few days, at random times, sounds like a great way to clearly articulate something... but that doesn't work out when every time you sit down, you write in a different tense. And then not realize it until you think you're done. My last 30 minutes was awesome.

[Merihathor]

I burst out laughing when I read "Frustrating Profitless Inquiry". I think that's the answer.

Yeah, that made me laugh too, but I tried anyway ;-)

[Gaston de Foix]

Marsala, on 08 May 2011 - 07:03 AM, said:

The picture of Haliax on the Chandrian vase showed him surrounded by the phases of the moon. His purpose is likely connected to the moon, either completing or reversing Iax's theft of it.

"Kill the

Chandrian? Kill Lanre? How could I even begin? I would have more luck trying to steal the moon. At

least I knew where to look for the moon at night." (NOTW, Chapter 27)

"It would be easier for me to get a piece of the moon than that much money.2 (NOTW, Chapter 36)

I think these quotes support your argument.

It's also possible that his power is somehow connected with the Moon or waxes and wanes with the moon. We know that candles are used in Taborlin the Great kind of magic and Lanre seems to have two candles under his hand. Here's an alternative quote from NOTW.

"There was one with no face, just a hood with nothing inside. There was a mirror by

his feet and there was a bunch of moons over him. You know, full moon, half moon, sliver moon." (Chapter 82< NOTW).

Not really sure why I am commenting on my own post, but I just had a further thought while in the tube about the Chandrian's purpose.

As an aside, I do think the relationship between Chandrian & the Moon is significant and the sanskrit meaning of Chandrian is a big clue as was mentioned by someone else in an earlier version of this thread. Post on this coming, hopefully soon.

Back to the topic of the Chandrian's purpose.

Arliden apparently knew what their purpose was,

1. but didn't connect it to any immediate threat to his life or his safety from either the Chandrian or any third parties.

2. We have this quote from Chapter 12, NOTW about his methodology:

"For months it 'was stories about Lanre. Then he started gathering old faerie stories too, legends about bogies and shamble-men. Then he began to ask questions about the Chandrian. . . .

That was months ago. Over the last half year he had asked more about the Chandrian and less about

Lanre, Lyra, and the rest."

3. didn't know a great deal (if anything) about Naming, the purpose of Greystones, or sympathy, shaping, the Creation War etc.

There's something a little contradictory about Arliden's approach here. He seems to accept the Chandrian are real and speaks of them in the present tense and of course we are told he has worked out their purpose.

But he never takes them seriously. I just don't know how to make sense of that...

[thistlepong]

3. didn't know a great deal (if anything) about Naming, the purpose of Greystones, or sympathy, shaping, the Creation War etc.

There's something a little contradictory about Arliden's approach here. He seems to accept the Chandrian are real and speaks of them in the present tense and of course we are told he has worked out their purpose.

But he never takes them seriously. I just don't know how to make sense of that...

Presumably you're suggesting that their purpose might be more clear if we excised those bits from consideration?

Given he new to check for Abenthy's gilthe, he may have knowledge of the magics taught at the University. And given Lanre's entire life takes place within the context of the Creation War an he made some connection between his story and the Chandrian; he might know plenty. I don't know, of course. But the implication is there. As an aside, did anyone get the impression that "Below the Walls" might be about Gibea?

[Gaston de Foix]

Presumably you're suggesting that their purpose might be more clear if we excised those bits from consideration?

Given he new to check for Abenthy's gilthe, he may have knowledge of the magics taught at the University. And given Lanre's entire life takes place within the context of the Creation War an he made some connection between his story and the Chandrian; he might know plenty. I don't know, of course. But the implication is there.

As an aside, did anyone get the impression that "Below the Walls" might be about Gibea?

hunh- I was just wondering about the song today. Gibea is very plausible as the subject of the song.

You are right. I was trying to eliminate stuff that might plausibly be their purpose that Arliden wouldn't stumble over. For instance, I doubt it has anything to do with Greystones being the way to Fae or the Chandrian trying to seal apart the worlds of Fae and human. I also doubt it has much to do with the left over business of the Creation War.

Generally speaking, if there's a lot of lore that Arliden knew about the "true shape of the world" to quote Bast in WMF, he would likely have shared it with his son. That Kvothe doesn't know about the Creation War or Ergen or shaping and naming and that even well educated and intelligent people like the Maer don't know, implies that it's quite a very heavily guarded secret.

I thought Arliden was worldly-wise but not formally educated. The gilthe seems the sort of knowledge about arcanists that savvy people have. It doesn't mean that Arliden knows that much about magic.

Obviously the front-runner for the purpose of the Chandrian continues to be the whole destroy the world thing from Skarpi 1. That's a very vague explanation obviously and says nothing about their methods.