[BOOK SPOILERS] EP103 Discussion II

[arrowfan]

The guy playing Benjen is INCREDIBLE. The scene where he lays it our for Tyrion is so good. An awesome highlight. I sure hope we see him again.

No doubt, great stuff. Also like the follow up to that scene with Aemon and Mormont telling Tyrion about how dire the situation at the wall is. Tyrion shows some genuine concern.

Well besides Renly (and the jury is still out on Renly for me) the casting and acting is stellar. Jon is quick becoming my new favorite character.

Just watched the ep for 3rd time. The scene with Robert chastising the Lannisters (Tywin and Jaime)... seems over the top. I mean, Tywin is Robert's father-in-law, show some respect! I suppose it sets up some sympathy for the Lannisters and portrays Robert as a rude drunk. Not too far off from the truth. The ending of that scene is pretty cool. Robert asks Jaime what Aerys said as he killed him, "burn them all". Nice.

[shibby]

No doubt, great stuff. Also like the follow up to that scene with Aemon and Mormont telling Tyrion about how dire the situation at the wall is. Tyrion shows some genuine concern.

Well besides Renly (and the jury is still out on Renly for me) the casting and acting is stellar. Jon is quick becoming my new favorite character.

Just watched the ep for 3rd time. The scene with Robert chastising the Lannisters (Tywin and Jaime)... seems over the top. I mean, Tywin is Robert's father-in-law, show some respect! I suppose it sets up some sympathy for the Lannisters and portrays Robert as a rude drunk. Not too far off from the truth. The ending of that scene is pretty cool. Robert asks Jaime what Aerys said as he killed him, "burn them all". Nice.

That wasn't Tywin. That was Barristan.

[arrowfan]

That wasn't Tywin. That was Barristan.

Right you are. He's even got the king's guard armor on.

[L’Age d’or]

Right you are. He's even got the king's guard armor on.

Dude you watched the episode three times and did not notice the identical armor? let alone all the other obvious clues :lmao:

[WildlingGirl]

I know that everything has probably been discussed a thousand times over by now, but I just managed to watch the episode last night and I'd like to share a few thoughts (especially after I read five pages of the first discussion thread)...

First off, about the Kingsguard. It has not been explicitly laid out in terms of the oath and the honour, let alone the parallels with the Night Watch... but we get the very distinguishable white-gold armour worn by more than one knights, and Robert's comment about Jaime being a "glorified sentry". Their cloaks also look white rather than gold. I have to say get that the Kingsguard in Robert's and Joffrey's regime were portrayed as not-quite-the-Kingsguard-of-old in the books as well, and we mostly get the appropriate awe from Ned's delirious dream, Bran's shattered dreams and Jaime's imprisoned introspection later on.

I got who Barristan was right away, he fitted my mental image to the dot and clearly seems someone who Jaime wishes to impress, in contrast with his obvious disdain for wine-soaked Robert. Barristan also appears to submit to Robert's whims: if he wants to discuss first killings, he'll stand there and discuss them, unlike Jaime who asks "is that all, Your Grace" and goes. Lancel nailed it :drunk:

Jaime's love for Cersei does come across to me, they've got lots of intimate screentime, and he's not supposed to be an all lovey-dovey eye-batting fop anyway, he's a gruff knight in a men's world and very arrogant to his own kin too. I've enjoyed all the scenes flexing his character out and recreating the flashbacks.

Cersei for me should indeed be cunning, seemingly a caring mother while completely destroying her son as a future ruler, and certainly smarter than lackwit spoilt Joffrey - while she is still the wife of the King. It also struck me how her advice is congruent with her very female viewpoint, as a woman who taught herself "politics" because the men around her wouldn't bother. Politics that smack of teenage girl scheming as well, shows how little she's developed emotionally. Doesn't Tyrion reflect on all this later? It's even greater shown prominently because it will be more evident how she never realised how shitty things would become once she had Robert killed (DUH!) and the game of thrones started playing out with people she had never reckoned with, and who far outsmarted her.

But the scene with Joffrey is also setting Cersei up for losing power in Tommen's reign, as she always groomed only Joffrey for ruling and paid little attention to the other children. Putting all her eggs in one basket - so silly of her :rolleyes:

Great scenes with Ned, Catelyn, and Sansa and Arya. Ned trying to give Sansa a doll at 14?! After he killed her direwolf himself?! Come on, she's still mourning Lady. It'll be even more poignant as Sansa never really stops mourning from now on, until she becomes Alayna Stone and can cast away her Stark tragedy cloak for a while. Very much Catelyn's daughter too!

Loved Dany wrestling with her 14-year-old fear of Viserys and her wish/need to come across as more Khaleesi-like. Jorah choosing her and then obviously realising he has to report the news just ties in with Varys' all-knowing quips. By the way, I thought the whip-wielding Dothraki was Rakharo who then discussed armour and swords with Jorah. I felt Dany did know about the pregnancy, just not consciously - the satisfied smile said it all for me. And how she's brought Drogo around says it all for the power women could wield back then. Dear cameramen, please quit focussing on the dragon eggs, please!!!

Have to say that casting of Varys, Littlefinger (complete with acid-dripping monologue), Grand Maester Pycelle, Commander Mormont, Syrio, Yoren, and Pyp and Grenn were all spot-on for me. Not at all Maester Aemon though - the guy did not come across as kindly and wise at all, just stuck up, bitter and biting his words off at Tyrion. I hope he loses some of the stiffness when Sam comes along!

Finally, had to rewind the Syrio/Arya scene a few times, it was SO perfect and brought back fond memories of learning to fence and understanding the difference between the weapons and stances. Didn't know the actor was Greek, he came across as Spanish to me, like the Toledo assassins. Ned's face as he realised what teaching Arya to fence really meant was priceless, and great foreshadowing for her future career choice!

Can't wait for the Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things now!

:Edited to change the font and to add that Old Nan was perfect and Bran wise beyond his years in the scene - I loved both!

[theMountainGoat]

WildlingGirl - the gold cloaks are the City Watch, Kingsguard have always been in white. Strictly speaking they should have had white armour too but apparently it looked terrible on camera.

I'm willing to bet the series will skip the Lancel/Cersei shtooping, so we shouldnt get all caught up in how weenie, and unlike Jaime, he looks.

I'd take this bet but at Belfast Moot 2 last October Eugene Simon (the actor playing Lancel) confirmed that there will be a flirtatious scene between his character and Cersei in this season. So long as it did not end up on the cutting room floor of course.

So last night I was re-reading AGOT when something strange happened to my thought process during Bran IV. I thought 'oh no Tyrion doesn't arrive now, this is where Bran says "I'd rather be dead"'. Then I realised that was the TV show :uhoh:

With the show being such a close adaptation of the books I think over time there is going to be some blurring of the lines between which is which. Keeping them separate in our own heads is not going to be so easy with the show this good.

[WildlingGirl]

lordMountainGoat,

To clarify, Kingsguard's armour does look white-goldish to me, as in platinum is white gold. Their cloaks look whitish as well which is a good thing, not bad as my post seems to read in retrospect. As opposed to the City Guards who have burnished-gold chainmail armour and cloaks. A totally white armour would look like totally white limousines and some otherwise nice cars (BMW, Audi) look today, ie. totally ridiculous to me.

In general, I take it that in location terms King's Landing is distinguished by the soft golden light that diffuses every scene, like the atmosphere in Mediterranean countries in spring, whereas Winterfell is cold grey and earthy, the Dothraki sea has a harsh desert light, and the Wall is permafrost white. In response to those who'd like to be told where each scene is staged, my non-reader boyfriend also commented on how the light and surroundings tell you everything at a glance.

[Smashing Young Man]

Does Jason Momoa have a great job or what? All he has to do is show up on set and have simulated sex with a naked Emilia Clarke.

[The Anti-Targ]

Sorry if this has already been touched on, but here's a thought on a re-watch:

The guy playing Benjen is INCREDIBLE. The scene where he lays it our for Tyrion is so good. An awesome highlight. I sure hope we see him again.

I with you on Benjen. Lets hope he is Coldhands. Otherwise that's the last we see of him.

[GileanTheGrey]

To clarify, Kingsguard's armour does look white-goldish to me, as in platinum is white gold. Their cloaks look whitish as well which is a good thing, not bad as my post seems to read in retrospect. As opposed to the City Guards who have burnished-gold chainmail armour and cloaks.

I thought the goldcloaks wore black chain... or was that just Janos Slynt?

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Not at all Maester Aemon though - the guy did not come across as kindly and wise at all, just stuck up, bitter and biting his words off at Tyrion. I hope he loses some of the stiffness when Sam comes along!

I think he will. The point of that scene was to impress to Tyrion (and the audience) that the Night's Watch is a pale shadow of its former self and would be hard pressed to stop any sort of real threat from beyond the Wall. Thus, the dramatic, almost desperate (and yes, overacted, scene-chewing) delivery from Aemon.

Additionally, Aemon's lines in the scene were spoken by Mormont in the book, but for whatever reason were rewritten for the show, which obviously altered the tone of the conversation. I'll reserve judgment on the character til at least the next episode.

[legba11]

Dany is 17 in the show.

The Kingsguard armor is plenty white, Ned even makes fun of it. Does anyone really want them to look like stormtroopers?

[Talleyrand]

I loved the episode except KL seems to tropical to me. I mean i get they're trying to show it's a world apart but the Stromlands are even further south and they're not tropical or anything plus None of the people even have tans which seems a bit odd for living in a place like that

[MountainThatRides]

Boy, oh boy. It's so difficult to gauge my reaction to this show; it's so difficult to tell whether, as a reader and fan for many years, my expectations are too high, or if the show is doing the book a disservice with its additions and omissions. I believe it's the former, and attribute most of my trepidation to the simple fact that this story plays out so vividly (and specifically) in my head when I'm reading the books, and seeing it come to life is going to be disappointing in some way. So many page-to-screen adaptations suffer from this; people who have never read the books can embrace the show for what it is and be drawn in, while for those who've read the series, it's difficult to put the nitpicking aside entirely.

As for the episode, I can see how non-readers would think it's the best yet. As readers, I believe that we at least partially judge the quality of an episode by its fidelity to the source material, and how many direct scenes/bits of dialogue make the jump to the screen. I know I do. Episode 2 was, I thought, very promising in how much of the book it gave us. There were a lot of little dialogue bits where I knew what was coming, and I could say the lines as the characters were saying them; in Episode 3, we got less of this, but the Syrio scene went a long way toward making up for it.

Things with which I took issue:

The lack of direwolves, I suppose, though I'm not so outraged about it as some people seem to be. I understand working with animals is a fickle endeavor, but their amount of screen time compared to their relevance to the story seems unfair. If it wasn't so expensive, I might not have minded a live-action/CGI mix for the wolves to at least suggest their presence in the post-production of certain scenes.

The Cersei/Joffrey scene. I didn't like anything about it. The advice Cersei gave to Joffrey was okay at some points, but at others it was way uncharacteristic. It'd be more believable for Cersei to suggest he fuck Myrcella, or even Cersei herself, than "painted whores". Also, it put a great deal of emphasis on some northern/southern schism which is only a small cultural dichotomy in the book. The realm isn't really divided into northerners and southerners, not in that sense; the men of the north may view their southern counterparts with condescension, and vice versa, but it's the Seven Kingdoms, not the American Civil War. The standing army notion was also kind of ridiculous, though the way Cersei shot it down was somewhat redeeming.

The Daenerys/Viserys scene where she wandered off randomly and he rushed in after her just as randomly. What the fuck? It would have taken 30 seconds to establish that scene more believably.

The lone wolf speech. Of all the dialogue that made the transition from book to screen, I was counting on this one. It has such clear imagery and relevance to the plot, not to mention helps to establish Ned's philosophy on family. It makes no sense that they wouldn't use it.

Things I enjoyed:

The war stories scene. They could have introduced Barristan Selmy better, and it kind of made Robert look like a dick, but it helped to establish his "faded glory" mentality and the nostalgia he can't escape. They worked in mentions of Tarly (so in the next episode when Sam is introduced there will be a point of reference), plus Summerhall, the Kingswood Brotherhood, Simon Toyne, etc. Also, Robert making fun of Lancel was fantastic. Foreshadowed the "wineskin warrior" and helped to establish how Robert sees the Lannisters (i.e., a nest of vipers).

Jorah and Rakharo comparing their weapons. The "steel dress" reference and the Dothraki's disdain for the Westerosi fighting style is important, and the fact that despite their views, the Dothraki in the khalasar clearly consider Jorah to be an accomplished warrior, which seems accurate to me.

Arya and Syrio. Such a fan service, so delicious. Syrio didn't look like I imagined him, but that scene was satisfying as fuck. The dialogue was spot-on. The "men are made of water; pierce them, the water leaks out and they die" line made me smile like an idiot.

All the other changes didn't make an impact on me one way or another. Most were necessary for pacing/casting reasons. The Wall is actually quite a large chunk of the first book, and they had to condense it down to fit with the linear storytelling. Donal Noye getting the axe was unsurprising, though I hope he'll make an appearance later on. I also hope Thorne is fleshed out more as a character, though at this point a bond has already formed between John, Pyp and Grenn, so the need for Ser Alliser as a common enemy is dwindling. The introduction of Sam (along with Rast and his croneys) might call for Thorne to show his true colors, and really establish the brotherhood between John, Sam, Pyp, Grenn, etc.

Overall, I thought it was a good episode. A bit fast in the pacing, but the show is certainly becoming progressively more engrossing. Even some of my favorite shows didn't hook me right off the bat. Well, Rome did, but Deadwood and Firefly took maybe 2-3 episodes for me to be completely committed. The major problem being the high expectations as a reader, and having to constantly force myself to take the show for what it is and not grade it in comparison to the books. Most of the casting decisions are good, thankfully, though Catelyn should be sexier. Not a sexpot like Cersei, but she is a sexual being, in a very matronly medieval MILF sort of way. Like in the book when she's all naked and doesn't give a shit if Maester Luwin sees her red Tully bush because she's got a mystery to solve, yeeaaah!

Best casting so far: Ned, Robert, Old Nan, Tyrion and Arya. Varys is pretty spot on, too.

Most dubious casting so far: Renly and Littlefinger will have to grow on me. Also, I like the Hound but I think he should have a bit more fire in his belly. A bit more wrath and bitterness. He's just kind of dour and ho-hum. "Oh, yeah, he ran, just, you know, not very fast. Whatever. Fuck off, Stark, I'm all disinterested and shit, with my weird hair."

Edit, quoted from Lothbrok:

I loved the episode except KL seems to tropical to me. I mean i get they're trying to show it's a world apart but the Stromlands are even further south and they're not tropical or anything plus None of the people even have tans which seems a bit odd for living in a place like that

That bothered me too. I could see the coasts of Dorne being tropical, with palm trees and what not, but King's Landing? The Stormlands and Crownlands (very close geographically) are clearly described as temperate. Like, in terms of European climate, I've always considered central Westeros (the Riverlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, the Reach and the West) to be like France/southern Germany, while the Vale was more like the Alps, the North was like Scotland and Dorne was like Spain. The palm trees were just jarring.

[Xenophon]

The Cersei/Joffrey scene. I didn't like anything about it. The advice Cersei gave to Joffrey was okay at some points, but at others it was way uncharacteristic. It'd be more believable for Cersei to suggest he fuck Myrcella, or even Cersei herself, than "painted whores". ...

The lone wolf speech. Of all the dialogue that made the transition from book to screen, I was counting on this one. It has such clear imagery and relevance to the plot, not to mention helps to establish Ned's philosophy on family. It makes no sense that they wouldn't use it. ...

Jorah and Rakharo comparing their weapons.

I took that line about painted whores to be Cersei's rage towards Robert bubbling over. TV Cersei vs book Cersei, and all that. Also, I don't think even book-Cersei was pro-incest in general.

Totally agree about the lone wolf. The scene was good as is, but it could have been much better with GRRM's dialogue.

Is it just me, or does Rakharo look (how to say this nicely?) a little soft for a Dothraki warrior? I like the actor, he was great in the Borgias, but he's just not that intimidating looking. Jason Momoa could break him with one glance.

[Toe]

That bothered me too. I could see the coasts of Dorne being tropical, with palm trees and what not, but King's Landing? The Stormlands and Crownlands (very close geographically) are clearly described as temperate. Like, in terms of European climate, I've always considered central Westeros (the Riverlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, the Reach and the West) to be like France/southern Germany, while the Vale was more like the Alps, the North was like Scotland and Dorne was like Spain. The palm trees were just jarring.

They also changed to climate at the Wall to almost arctic when there was no snow there at beginning of the series (except the Wall itself).

[The King's Foot]

Not at all Maester Aemon though - the guy did not come across as kindly and wise at all, just stuck up, bitter and biting his words off at Tyrion.

Totally agree. Even said to my wife (who's reading through AGoT for the first time as we watch) that Maester Aemon isn't supposed to be like that at all. In the books he seems "above it all" in addition to being kind and wise. He's seen (no pun intended) good times and bad times, been through all the ups and downs, and he's supposed to be this calming, wise influence - not this bitter old man. It's only one scene, so there's certainly time to correct the portrayal, but I'm not a fan of Angry Aemon.

[MountainThatRides]

I took that line about painted whores to be Cersei's rage towards Robert bubbling over. TV Cersei vs book Cersei, and all that. Also, I don't think even book-Cersei was pro-incest in general.

Totally agree about the lone wolf. The scene was good as is, but it could have been much better with GRRM's dialogue.

Is it just me, or does Rakharo look (how to say this nicely?) a little soft for a Dothraki warrior? I like the actor, he was great in the Borgias, but he's just not that intimidating looking. Jason Momoa could break him with one glance.

Yeah, Rakharo isn't quite fearsome, but I believe in the book he's fairly young so I guess it's acceptable. Momoa doesn't really get to act much, the character is kind of fenced in because of the language, but he certainly looks the part for Khal Drogo. Very visually impressive.

Regarding the lone wolf thing, and the dialogue in general, I find that a lot of the changes they make are unnecessary. Martin's dialogue is great and really lends itself to television; when they use some of his dialogue and change other parts, or add their own scenes, you can kind of sense the difference and I think it disrupts the flow in a very minor way. It's not very noticeable but it's there. Can't really fault them, though; there's no way they'd be able to use everything he wrote line for line. Though, "the King eats and the Hand takes the shit" is better than "the King shits and the Hand wipes", though I suppose they both amount to the same meaning.

[The King's Foot]

One other thing I think I noticed was that in the opening credits, the locations were slightly different...we got the Wall and Winterfell and KL, but instead of Pentos we got Vaes Dothrak/Dothraki Sea. Am I imagining this? What this would imply is maybe the opening credits for each episode will vary based on which locations are being featured that week. That would be super badass in my opinion.

[MountainThatRides]

One other thing I think I noticed was that in the opening credits, the locations were slightly different...we got the Wall and Winterfell and KL, but instead of Pentos we got Vaes Dothrak/Dothraki Sea. Am I imagining this? What this would imply is maybe the opening credits for each episode will vary based on which locations are being featured that week. That would be super badass in my opinion.

That's exactly what they're doing. They alter the opening credits to show the locations which will feature in the episode. This will come in very handy once the war breaks out and people are spread all over the damn place. It'll give non-readers a better understanding of the characters' geographic relation to each other, and the size/scope of the realm.

Also, to concur, it is super badass. Not Gregor Clegane badass, but, you know. Maybe Bronn level of badass, which is pretty fucking badass.