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Angalin

The R+L=J thread, part XI

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Forgive an ignorant noob, but even if R+L does, in fact, =J, surely he would have no legitimate claim to the iron throne? Once Robert took it, the right of claim for any surviving Targaryens would be null and void, correct? They would need to take it by force, which Jon would never do.

Stannis, Edric or Genly would be next in line, wouldn't they? Assuming it's discovered that Tommen isn't Robert's son. What circumstances would lead to Jon ever sitting on the throne?

Sry if this has been covered (which I'm sure it has), or if I'm messing up the line of succession (which I'm sure I have), I just have no patience to trawl through the many, many pages of postings in this topic.

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Forgive an ignorant noob, but even if R+L does, in fact, =J, surely he would have no legitimate claim to the iron throne? Once Robert took it, the right of claim for any surviving Targaryens would be null and void, correct? They would need to take it by force, which Jon would never do.

Stannis, Edric or Genly would be next in line, wouldn't they? Assuming it's discovered that Tommen isn't Robert's son. What circumstances would lead to Jon ever sitting on the throne?

Sry if this has been covered (which I'm sure it has), or if I'm messing up the line of succession (which I'm sure I have), I just have no patience to trawl through the many, many pages of postings in this topic.

Well...yes. I mean, if you want to get technical, if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and Rhaegar and Lyanna had gotten married prior to having Jon (thus, he's not a bastard), and somehow they could actually convince people this was the case, Jon would be the rightful heir. Robert's claim is technically from the Targaryen line too. He really won the throne due to fighting for it, but technically, if you closed your eyes and ignored Viserys and Dany, Robert was actually the rightful heir after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children were all killed. Robert's grandmother or great grandmother or something like that was a Targaryen.

All of that said, you're also right that there's no way Cersei and crew would give up the throne by anything other than force. They don't care about rightful heirs, they'd just call Jon or whoever a liar. But in theory, for anyone who actually cared about rightful heirs, if Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar, then he'd be heir to the throne, with Dany being the next in line (females are further removed than males even if she's Aerys' daughter while Jon would be his grandson). After those two it would be Stannis (if you go by Tommen not truly being Robert's son), even in the original Targaryen line.

I'd also point out that if you remove Jon and Dany and go only by what the people believe to be the line right now, and also remove Tommen and Myrcella (in this scenario we're pretending everyone believes they're Cersei and Jaime's bastards), Stannis is the rightful king, Shireen would be the heir to the Seven Kingdoms after him, and that's it. I believe at that point, if Stannis and Shireen were to die tomorrow, that whole line would be gone and you'd have to figure out what remote cousin or whatever is next. Edric and Gendry are bastards so they're not in the line at all, short of a king legitimizing them.

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Well...yes. I mean, if you want to get technical, if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and Rhaegar and Lyanna had gotten married prior to having Jon (thus, he's not a bastard), and somehow they could actually convince people this was the case, Jon would be the rightful heir. Robert's claim is technically from the Targaryen line too. He really won the throne due to fighting for it, but technically, if you closed your eyes and ignored Viserys and Dany, Robert was actually the rightful heir after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children were all killed. Robert's grandmother or great grandmother or something like that was a Targaryen.

All of that said, you're also right that there's no way Cersei and crew would give up the throne by anything other than force. They don't care about rightful heirs, they'd just call Jon or whoever a liar. But in theory, for anyone who actually cared about rightful heirs, if Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar, then he'd be heir to the throne, with Dany being the next in line (females are further removed than males even if she's Aerys' daughter while Jon would be his grandson). After those two it would be Stannis (if you go by Tommen not truly being Robert's son), even in the original Targaryen line.

I'd also point out that if you remove Jon and Dany and go only by what the people believe to be the line right now, and also remove Tommen and Myrcella (in this scenario we're pretending everyone believes they're Cersei and Jaime's bastards), Stannis is the rightful king, Shireen would be the heir to the Seven Kingdoms after him, and that's it. I believe at that point, if Stannis and Shireen were to die tomorrow, that whole line would be gone and you'd have to figure out what remote cousin or whatever is next. Edric and Gendry are bastards so they're not in the line at all, short of a king legitimizing them.

Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up :thumbsup: Though my point was that I didn't believe Jon had a legitimate claim.

But I think the essence of what you're saying is that because of the fact that Robert is technically part-Targaryen, theirs is still the "Royal" bloodline, as it were.

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Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up :thumbsup: Though my point was that I didn't believe Jon had a legitimate claim.

But I think the essence of what you're saying is that because of the fact that Robert is technically part-Targaryen, theirs is still the "Royal" bloodline, as it were.

Right. I thought what you meant was that Jon didn't have a legitimate claim because Robert's is the new line, to which I would say that Robert's isn't really a new line (although I'm certain Cersei would treat it as such), just the old line with Viserys and the unborn Dany (at the time) being bypassed. Jon may still not have a legitimate claim because if he's a bastard, no matter whose bastard he is, he's out unless a king or queen legitimizes him.

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What i find the oddest is that people think that every one in the seven kingdoms would believe this story and somehow Jon becomes King or marries Dany. I'm not sure about you but i wouldn't trust a weird swamp man who just appears and claims he knows who is the true Heir to the throne

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What i find the oddest is that people think that every one in the seven kingdoms would believe this story and somehow Jon becomes King or marries Dany. I'm not sure about you but i wouldn't trust a weird swamp man who just appears and claims he knows who is the true Heir to the throne

Right, but that's why this isn't your typical epic fantasy series. Nobody seriously expects GRRM to write it so that once Jon is revealed to be the long-lost son of Prince Rhaegar, the entire country recognizes him, falls to their knees, and makes him king by popular acclaim. That's not how the real world works, and that's not how ASoIaF works.

What might happen is that a few people in crucial positions might find out - like Dany - through some connection with the dragons or some other undisputable way. This might, by the end of the series, lead to Jon being in a position to rule. But only if the plot develops that way, and not because he has some undeniable claim to the throne.

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Forgive an ignorant noob, but even if R+L does, in fact, =J, surely he would have no legitimate claim to the iron throne? Once Robert took it, the right of claim for any surviving Targaryens would be null and void, correct? They would need to take it by force, which Jon would never do.

that might be true if there was some sort of constitution of westeros that everyone followed, but there isn't.

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What i find the oddest is that people think that every one in the seven kingdoms would believe this story and somehow Jon becomes King or marries Dany. I'm not sure about you but i wouldn't trust a weird swamp man who just appears and claims he knows who is the true Heir to the throne

Whatever legitimacy his claim may prove to have, or even if he makes it, I've always assumed that he would never come to power unless he was taken up by a faction with a huge army who was coming to power (like if Daenerys ever invades Westeros). No matter his claim, in the political landscape of the War of the Five Kings, his claim is moot without an army and the backing of several major houses. This would never happen because 1) most of them already have their own claimants, 2) he was raised a Stark, and therefore would have all Robb's war-baggage thrown on him, and 3) his "Targaryen" claim, even if recognized by people in power as legitimate, would probably still be a turn off to most of Westeros.

No, Jon does not come to power without a major realignment of Westerosi government.

Side note, Daenerys, if she were to re-conquer Westeros, just doesn't represent a return to the old Targaryen line anymore. She was raised in the Free Cities, got her identity with the Dothraki, has been allover the world, become the mother of thousands of slaves from all over the world, and has been the ruler of the slave cities. Her court, her outlook, her identity, and therefore her rule, will be rather different than that of her ancestors.

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What i find the oddest is that people think that every one in the seven kingdoms would believe this story and somehow Jon becomes King or marries Dany. I'm not sure about you but i wouldn't trust a weird swamp man who just appears and claims he knows who is the true Heir to the throne

Yeah, they wouldn't. I was talking only from the theory of "If everyone actually cared about that stuff...", but it's pretty clear in the story they don't. He'd have to get an army behind him, whether Dany's or someone elses, and the only army he's like to have would require the leader of that group stating that they want Jon to be king and handing it over (i.e., Dany totally deciding he's the rightful heir and so she's going to give up her claim to the throne...seems doubtful to me).

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What i find the oddest is that people think that every one in the seven kingdoms would believe this story and somehow Jon becomes King or marries Dany. I'm not sure about you but i wouldn't trust a weird swamp man who just appears and claims he knows who is the true Heir to the throne

But then Varys shows up with Ned's letter!

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But then Varys shows up with Ned's letter!

I'm not even sure if Ned wrote the letter though.

Though, I did read the first book some time ago, so I may have forgotten :worried:

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But then Varys shows up with Ned's letter!

Now that sounds like the band of misfits that appears in every Hollywood fantasy film

"A Eunuch, a dead traitor and a swamp man must unite to get a boy back his throne"

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Every inch of speculation has been covered, so I won't comment on any new "evidence" that proves this theory true or not. But I personally hope that it is. I don't expect or even want Jon to rule the Seven Kingdoms. But I am pulling for him to be AA/PtwP, to be the one that leads the fight against the Others and come out on the winning side with an awesomely heroic/tragic death scene.

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Just because R+L=J wouldn't mean Jon's status is going to change. He probably has a big role to play in defeating the Others and hopefully will find out the truth about his parentage, but that doesn't make him a heir to the iron throne. Why would he even want to do that?

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I'm not really here to throw on my own speculation just very pleasantly surprised that this theory has been brought up this extensively. I'm relatively new to the series but finished all of the books in about three weeks and, I can't remember what chapter of ASoS it was but it clicked suddenly. I didn't buy Wylla being Jon's mother since Ned's sense of duty was so staunch and it makes sense that, to save his sister's honor, he would sacrifice his own. Also, the rage within Robert would've led to the death of Jon, Ned's own blood.

I guess the only problem I have with Jon being Rhaegar's son is how did Ned explain it to everyone when he came back from the Tower of Joy with a kid? He must have hidden it (I assume this is where Howland Reed and his stealthy abilities from the swamp came into play) until he was reunited with Wylla in a time frame that would be convincing to everyone.

As far as the claim goes, I have to assume that Jon is R'hollor's chosen and once he gets his hand on the sword Stannis is carrying (not sure how that will happen) it will burn and give off heat like Aemon said the true prophet's sword would. I suppose the destruction of the wall could lead to the elimination of the Night's Watch and release Jon from his oath allowing him to return south to gather an army to then oppose the Others. At this time, I would venture, Dany will have crossed the ocean with support and reclaim the Iron Throne.

I honestly have no idea who the third dragon would be. I'm not even sure of a theory out there that has any fact that add up like Jon potentially does.

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As far as the claim goes, I have to assume that Jon is R'hollor's chosen and once he gets his hand on the sword Stannis is carrying (not sure how that will happen) it will burn and give off heat like Aemon said the true prophet's sword would.

Interesting theory. I figured Lightbringer will be forged from scratch - potentially by Gendry, since he's a bit of a R'hllor-botherer. Plus it seems a bit convenient to introduce a smith character when we're short a mythical sword.

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Does anyone remember how old Aegon was when Gregor was supposed to have killed him? Reason why I ask is is it possible that Aegon lived and is in reality Jon Snow? He was an infant at the time of his death right?

EDIT: nevermind I just remembered that Ned told Jon that he may not have stark name but has stark blood so there goes that theory

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I'm curious about one thing... how might the story have been different if Jon was a girl? Would he be treated worse by Catelyn? Where would he go after Ned left for the south? He could hardly be sent to the Wall if he was a she.

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Does anyone remember how old Aegon was when Gregor was supposed to have killed him? Reason why I ask is is it possible that Aegon lived and is in reality Jon Snow? He was an infant at the time of his death right?

EDIT: nevermind I just remembered that Ned told Jon that he may not have stark name but has stark blood so there goes that theory

various baby aegon theories has been discussed a lot. i think the other problem is that aegon would be a bit older than jon.

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