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The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

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All we know for sure is that Aemon was a nursing infant during the fall of King's Landing, but if we're assuming Dany's vision in the House of the Undying was real, Rhaegar's presence at Aegon's birth suggests he was born before Rhaegar and Lyanna absconded i.e. before the beginning of Robert's rebellion.

-?Aegon's birth

-Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance

-execution of Brandon and Rickard Stark

-raising of armies in the North, Stormlands and Vale

-marriage of Ned and Catelyn

-?Jon's conception

-various battles including Ruby Ford

-sack of King's Landing

-Tower of Joy

-Jon's arrival at Winterfell with Wylla

-Ned and Catelyn's arrival at Winterfell with Robb

Jon-is-Aegon also demands a big explanation as to why 'Aegon' would have classic Stark looks.

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All we know for sure is that Aemon was a nursing infant during the fall of King's Landing, but if we're assuming Dany's vision in the House of the Undying was real, Rhaegar's presence at Aegon's birth suggests he was born before Rhaegar and Lyanna absconded i.e. before the beginning of Robert's rebellion.

-?Aegon's birth

-Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance

-execution of Brandon and Rickard Stark

-raising of armies in the North, Stormlands and Vale

-marriage of Ned and Catelyn

-?Jon's conception

-various battles including Ruby Ford

-sack of King's Landing

-Tower of Joy

-Jon's arrival at Winterfell with Wylla

-Ned and Catelyn's arrival at Winterfell with Robb

Jon-is-Aegon also demands a big explanation as to why 'Aegon' would have classic Stark looks.

I think I just posted this link in the last thread, but here it is again - "What Happened When During Robert's Rebellion" and here is my take on a relative timeline:

  • Tourney at Harrenhal
  • Rickard Stark announces Lyanna Stark’s betrothal to Robert Baratheon in Winterfell (sometime after Mya Stone is born.)
  • Aegon's birth
  • Lyanna Stark is “kidnapped” by Rhaegar Targaryen
  • Brandon Stark meets Catelyn and tells her he must take care of something before their wedding
  • Brandon rides to King’s Landing and calls out for Rhaegar to “come out and die.” All of Brandon’s party are seized and imprisoned by King Aerys Targaryen’s order.
  • King Aerys summons the fathers of Brandon and his companions to King’s Landing
  • Aerys kills Rickard Stark and Brandon
  • Aerys sends a message to Jon Arryn demanding the heads of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon, to which Lord Arryn responds by calling his banners - the beginning of the rebellion which lasts "about a year."
  • Robert and Ned travel to their respective realms to call their banners against Aerys
  • Robert fights a series of battles against loyalist forces at Summerhall first, then at Ashford.
  • Aerys removes Lord Merryweather as his Hand and after being unable to find his son, Rhaegar, he names Rhaegar’s friend, Jon Connington, as Hand of the King.
  • Siege of Storm’s End begins.
  • The Battle of the Bells - Jon Connington removed as King’s Hand and is replaced by Lord Chelsted
  • Ned marries Catelyn Tully and Jon Arryn marries her sister Lysa. Jon Snow is conceived around this time.
  • Rhaegar returns north, after either he is found or he comes out of hiding, to take up command of the King’s forces
  • Aerys kills his King’s Hand, Lord Chelsted, when he discovers the pyromancer plot
  • The same night of Lord Chelsted’s death Aerys rapes his own wife and sister Queen Rhaella (Daenerys conceived)
  • Rhaegar leaves for the Trident; telling Jaime Lannister there will be changes when he returns
  • Rhaegar is killed by Robert at the Battle of the Trident
  • When news of the Battle of the Trident reaches King’s Landing Rhaella and Viserys leave for Dragonstone. Aerys refuses to let Elia and her children go with them.
  • Sack of King’s Landing. Death of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and the baby Aegon by the hands of Tywin Lannister’s bannermen and his son, Jaime. Ned arrives with the Rebel vanguard and holds the Iron Throne for Robert.
  • A wounded Robert arrives in King’s Landing
  • Robert’s coronation. Varys, Pycelle, and Ser Jaime Lannister are pardoned, over Ned’s objections - at least in the case of Jaime.
  • Tywin Lannister displays the bodies of Elia and her children before the Iron Throne leading to a argument between Robert and Ned over their deaths and Tywin’s conduct. The same day Ned leaves to go to Storm’s End
  • Jon Snow is born around this time or just after Ned lifts the siege at Storm's End
  • Ned lifts the siege at Storm’s End - about a year since the beginning of the siege
  • Ned travels to the Tower of Joy. Lyanna dies and only Ned and Howland Reed survive a battle between Ned and six companions against the three remaining free loyalists of the Kingsguard
  • Ned pulls down the Tower of Joy and builds “eight cairns” to serve as graves for the dead from his battle with the Kingsguard
  • Ned goes to Starfall and returns the sword Dawn to the Daynes
  • Ned goes to King’s Landing where Robert and Ned make peace over Ned's news of Lyanna's death
  • Baby Jon Snow is in Winterfell with his wetnurse when Catelyn arrives - note we don't know who the wetnurse is.
  • Daenerys is born amidst a tremendous storm which destroys the Targaryen fleet. Rhaella dies from complications from Daenerys’s birth.
  • Before the newly built rebel fleet, commanded by Stannis Baratheon, can arrive at Dragonstone, Ser Willem Darry steals into the young Targaryen’s chambers and secrets them out of Dragonstone before a mutinous force of soldiers can turn them over to the rebels

This all takes place over the years 281 to 284. The tourney at Harrenhal is likely in year 281, the rebellion likely starts in late 282, the sack of King's Landing takes place in 283, and Daenerys birth is in 284. Lastly, some of this is certainly my interpretation, but much of it is clear from citations in the books - much of which is listed in the link above. Hope that helps.

edit: to Ran and the mods, this topic keeps coming up in these threads for obvious reasons and it as much as I try to point people to the Citadel for reference I think it might be helpful to post another sticky here with the information provided in the Citadel page as a starting point for discussion. I'd be happy to help and would throughly enjoy participating in discussions on this backstory.

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Side note, Daenerys, if she were to re-conquer Westeros, just doesn't represent a return to the old Targaryen line anymore. She was raised in the Free Cities, got her identity with the Dothraki, has been allover the world, become the mother of thousands of slaves from all over the world, and has been the ruler of the slave cities. Her court, her outlook, her identity, and therefore her rule, will be rather different than that of her ancestors.

Hee hee. So she was raised in the Free Cities - whose culture is despised - got her identity with the Dothraki - who are looked down on as savages - and learned to rule a bunch of slaves - when slavery is illegal in Westeros.

I don't think any of those details in any way recommends her to a Westerosi.

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Hee hee. So she was raised in the Free Cities - whose culture is despised - got her identity with the Dothraki - who are looked down on as savages - and learned to rule a bunch of slaves - when slavery is illegal in Westeros.

I don't think any of those details in any way recommends her to a Westerosi.

True, but there will still be a huge amount of baseline affection towards her. The War of the Five Kings has brought Westeros to its knees and 'the smallfolk' crop up increasingly looking back on the golden age of peace and prosperity - not Robert's reign, which tee'd up the current anarchy, but Aerys'.

Everything you've mentioned will count against her but I think she'll still be seen to represent a return to older, more civilised time - by virtue of being a Targ (ironically).

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Hee hee. So she was raised in the Free Cities - whose culture is despised - got her identity with the Dothraki - who are looked down on as savages - and learned to rule a bunch of slaves - when slavery is illegal in Westeros.

I don't think any of those details in any way recommends her to a Westerosi.

But Dany freed the slaves. Wouldn't that be a point in her favor?

Anyway, I don't think she'd be any more alien to the Westerosi than the Targs were at the time of the Conquest. Having dragons goes a long way toward convincing people to like you.

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completely agree with ou on that one Kyle

I'm new to this thread and heven't read it in all its extend( up to part 7 or so..) so i don't know if it was brought up already:

Why would Dayne, Whitebull and Whent defend the Tower of Joy to their deaths if there wasn't someone of royal blood inside, which Lyanna wasn't, and how come only Ned and Howland survived?? Maybe because the Kingsguard knew they wouldn't kill Jon, but protect him, and that this way their charge would have the best hope of survival. I can't imagine, from the way Dayne's and Whitebull's skill were depicted that they, together with Whent would loose againt only 7 attackers? That is highly suspicious to me.

and to you Tyler Snow i just have to say: STANNIS'S LIGHTBRINGER IS FAKE!!!!!! LONGCLAW HAS A THOUSAND TIME'S MORE MAGIC IN IT!!! And beeing Dragonsteel aka Vallyrian, which can kill others because of the magic flames captured inside it, technically making it a "flaming" sword, if Jon is AA which i doubt. :owned:

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True, but there will still be a huge amount of baseline affection towards her. The War of the Five Kings has brought Westeros to its knees and 'the smallfolk' crop up increasingly looking back on the golden age of peace and prosperity - not Robert's reign, which tee'd up the current anarchy, but Aerys'.

Everything you've mentioned will count against her but I think she'll still be seen to represent a return to older, more civilised time - by virtue of being a Targ (ironically).

In the House of the Undying Dany sees four little men ravishing a naked woman, probably symbolizing the various kings killing each other for control of the realm. Given that they seem not to care if they rape the lands and kill people in their path, I don't think any of those factions will step aside just because Dany returns.

On the other hand, having dragons to destroy the threat of the Others would probably go a long way to show everyone that she has the power to protect the realm and the small folks who are currently being victimized by the various factions in the war. If/when Dany takes the throne, I think it will be because she was the only one who could save everyone from the real threat.

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But Dany freed the slaves. Wouldn't that be a point in her favor?

Anyway, I don't think she'd be any more alien to the Westerosi than the Targs were at the time of the Conquest. Having dragons goes a long way toward convincing people to like you.

Dany freed the slaves... with her slave army. :/

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while i certainly see all the merit to this theory. In fact, I am inclined to believe it. However, there is something I am unable to reconcile: Targaryens are supposed to be immune to fire, but Jon gets a bad scar when he is burned in Mormont's tower. Could it be that the Stark Ice is stronger than the Targaryen Fire?

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while i certainly see all the merit to this theory. In fact, I am inclined to believe it. However, there is something I am unable to reconcile: Targaryens are supposed to be immune to fire, but Jon gets a bad scar when he is burned in Mormont's tower. Could it be that the Stark Ice is stronger than the Targaryen Fire?

Actually, Targaryens are not necessarily immune to fire. Quite a few of them actually burned to death, but Targaryens are known to be somewhat resistant to fire, but aren't really immune without a bit of magic.

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that might be true if there was some sort of constitution of westeros that everyone followed, but there isn't.

There are some rules, like "bastard must be legitimized" rule that KyleLitke mentioned. The fact that most people wouldn't fall down and immediately kneel before Jon tells t you there is a kind if due process that must be respected.

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Actually, Targaryens are not necessarily immune to fire. Quite a few of them actually burned to death, but Targaryens are known to be somewhat resistant to fire, but aren't really immune without a bit of magic.

so, not immune, but you would think that jon would have been more resistant then to that fire than he was

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so, not immune, but you would think that jon would have been more resistant then to that fire than he was

If you stick your hand in a fire you'll get burned, even if you're "resistant." What should have happened instead, in your eyes?

Anyway, Jon isn't full Targ (assuming R+L=J), so it's possible he isn't as "resistant" to heat as other Targs.

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Not all Targs have such an affinity to fire. Not all had the same hair or eyes or had dreams that sometimes came true. If you have read all the Dunk and Egg stories this is evident in the hedge knight and more recently in the mystery knight. I think its important that Jon has the Targaryan Blood but the Blood of the First men is more important here I think. or at least they are equally important.

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I don't recall Viserys being particularly resistant to substances in a high-temperature state.

To go a little James Bond, maybe he didn't die of the melting gold but from suffocating :stunned: .

Of course not, GRRM stated that the birth of Dany's dragons was something special, and Targs are not fireproof just because they are Targs. Affinity for heat yes, and even drawn to fire. But enough off them got burned by it. Maybe you can argue, purebreed Targs are more heatresistant than half breeds, but that is pure speculation.

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completely agree with ou on that one Kyle

I'm new to this thread and heven't read it in all its extend( up to part 7 or so..) so i don't know if it was brought up already:

Why would Dayne, Whitebull and Whent defend the Tower of Joy to their deaths if there wasn't someone of royal blood inside, which Lyanna wasn't, and how come only Ned and Howland survived?? Maybe because the Kingsguard knew they wouldn't kill Jon, but protect him, and that this way their charge would have the best hope of survival. I can't imagine, from the way Dayne's and Whitebull's skill were depicted that they, together with Whent would loose againt only 7 attackers? That is highly suspicious to me.

and to you Tyler Snow i just have to say: STANNIS'S LIGHTBRINGER IS FAKE!!!!!! LONGCLAW HAS A THOUSAND TIME'S MORE MAGIC IN IT!!! And beeing Dragonsteel aka Vallyrian, which can kill others because of the magic flames captured inside it, technically making it a "flaming" sword, if Jon is AA which i doubt. :owned:

I know that Aemon said the sword was not the fabled blade that AA would carry but still, I don't think that rules out that the blade could still undergo the transformation necessary to make it Lightbringer. I also find it interesting that the name of the sword is the same name that Lucifer was known as and is suppose to be wielded by AA, a messianic figure, so yes, I'm aware that the sword is a fake in its current state but to rule out that it could not undergo another transformation seems a bit premature.

Going on with your theory, however, I'd say that Oathkeeper and it's sister sword are more likely candidates for being Lightbringer via their Valyrian steel compositions since they were forged from Ice, than Longclaw. I just venture to assume that Ice was an elder sword since it was held by the Starks and not the Mormonts, a vassal house.

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