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The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

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Now, you seem to be saying in your most recent posts that incest doesn't particularly bother you, except for Jon/Arya because Jon and Arya are emotionally siblings, and Arya is too young. And here's the thing: I agree that Arya's age and emotional connection to Jon would make their pairing icky. It's just that I also find it to be icky for an additional reason, namely her blood relation to Jon. And for this same reason, I find the prospect of a Jon/Dany pairing to be icky as well.

So, to reiterate what I've been trying to say the entire time: You cannot object to Jon/Arya on the basis of their blood relation without also objecting to Jon/Dany on the basis of their blood relation. Do you disagree with this point, Galen?

First off, bravo for such a well-written post.

My initial point was that we have only seen evidence of incest (including cousin incest) from Targaryens and Lannisters. We have no evidence that other Houses practiced cousin incest. Let's assume that all the major houses practice cousin incest from time to time. In that case, I would have no valid blood-related argument against Jon/Arya. However, and this seems to be the crux of it: we are meant to think of the Starks as "Us" and the Targaryens and Lannisters as "Them." So, while we can turn a blind eye to Them committing incest, when it is Us, there is a definite squick factor to it. This is certainly a double standard, and I am not trying to justify it, just explaining it.

The reason I did not mention the age/emotion factor is that it took all this discussion for me to finally realize what was making me so reject Jon/Arya.

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Just for everybody else's benefit, could you guys come up with something other than this endless, never-ending ick and squick? I've never seen so many icks and squicks in my life, makes this entire thread nearly impossible to read. This is ick, but that's squick. No, this is squick, that's ick. Squick-ick vs Ick-squick. ARRRGGHHH! I mean, surely we can debate the repulsion (or not) factors of Jon and Ayra vs Jon and Dany in terms other than ick squick, squick ick, ick squick, squick ick, you think?

:ack:

squick

ick

:ack:

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First off, bravo for such a well-written post.

Why thank you. :)

My initial point was that we have only seen evidence of incest (including cousin incest) from Targaryens and Lannisters. We have no evidence that other Houses practiced cousin incest.

You're right, those are the only examples we have of cousin incest. My main reason for thinking it's acceptable is that no one remarks about Tywin's marriage negatively, and no one regards Jaime and Cersei as abominations. Even when discussing the incest of the Targaryens or of Jaime/Cersei, no one brings up Tywin/Joanna as another example. I think it's reasonable to conclude from this that cousin marriage is acceptable in Westeros.

Let's assume that all the major houses practice cousin incest from time to time. In that case, I would have no valid blood-related argument against Jon/Arya.

Well, at least we can agree on that, then. :)

However, and this seems to be the crux of it: we are meant to think of the Starks as "Us" and the Targaryens and Lannisters as "Them." So, while we can turn a blind eye to Them committing incest, when it is Us, there is a definite squick factor to it. This is certainly a double standard, and I am not trying to justify it, just explaining it.

True, we see the story more often from the Stark perspective than from the Lannister or Targ perspective, so we tend to identify more with the former than the latter. But I don't know if I agree that that means their incest is acceptable. If anything, I think it's their incest that contributes to their being "Them", because it tends to offend our sensibilities. In other words, Lannister and Targ incest alienates us from them, and makes it difficult to identify with them. I think that's part of what makes them a "Them."

Just for everybody else's benefit, could you guys come up with something other than this endless, never-ending ick and squick? I've never seen so many icks and squicks in my life, makes this entire thread nearly impossible to read. This is ick, but that's squick. No, this is squick, that's ick. Squick-ick vs Ick-squick. ARRRGGHHH! I mean, surely we can debate the repulsion (or not) factors of Jon and Ayra vs Jon and Dany in terms other than ick squick, squick ick, ick squick, squick ick, you think?

Well, if squick and ick squ/ick you out, then that means they're the best descriptors, right? :)

But in any event, I think we're reaching the end of the debate. If it continues any further, I'll try to diversify my vocabulary.

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True, we see the story more often from the Stark perspective than from the Lannister or Targ perspective, so we tend to identify more with the former than the latter. But I don't know if I agree that that means their incest is acceptable. If anything, I think it's their incest that contributes to their being "Them", because it tends to offend our sensibilities. In other words, Lannister and Targ incest alienates us from them, and makes it difficult to identify with them. I think that's part of what makes them a "Them."

I think that's a chicken and the egg situation. Do we turn a blind eye to Their incest because we are alienated to Them? Or does Their incest further alienate Them? I guess it doesn't really matter, because the end result either way is holding the Starks to a higher standard.

But in any event, I think we're reaching the end of the debate.

I think so, too. I hope it was as edifying for you (and the rest of the board) as it was for me ;)

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Actually if it's cousins it would not be incest under British law. I guess the same would apply in many states in the US. In fact two of my cousins (cousins in the first degree, their grandmothers were sisters) are married. I was someone surprised at first but felt no ick.

As to step siblings (Jon & Ayra) I understand that over here that is classified as incest even if there is no consanguinity... I also understand Islam considers to be incestuous a relationship between two persons who have shared the same wetnurse... Incest is pretty culturally defined.

What does make me a little queasy is the thought of marrying your fiance's brother if your fiance happens to die before the wedding, I think that crops up a few times in ASoIaF, most notably with Brandon/Catelyn, Ned/Catelyn...

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First off, bravo for such a well-written post.

My initial point was that we have only seen evidence of incest (including cousin incest) from Targaryens and Lannisters. We have no evidence that other Houses practiced cousin incest. Let's assume that all the major houses practice cousin incest from time to time. In that case, I would have no valid blood-related argument against Jon/Arya. However, and this seems to be the crux of it: we are meant to think of the Starks as "Us" and the Targaryens and Lannisters as "Them." So, while we can turn a blind eye to Them committing incest, when it is Us, there is a definite squick factor to it. This is certainly a double standard, and I am not trying to justify it, just explaining it.

The reason I did not mention the age/emotion factor is that it took all this discussion for me to finally realize what was making me so reject Jon/Arya.

Actually if it's cousins it would not be incest under British law. I guess the same would apply in many states in the US. In fact two of my cousins (cousins in the first degree, their grandmothers were sisters) are married. I was someone surprised at first but felt no ick.

As to step siblings (Jon & Ayra) I understand that over here that is classified as incest even if there is no consanguinity... I also understand Islam considers to be incestuous a relationship between two persons who have shared the same wetnurse... Incest is pretty culturally defined.

What does make me a little queasy is the thought of marrying your fiance's brother if your fiance happens to die before the wedding, I think that crops up a few times in ASoIaF, most notably with Brandon/Catelyn, Ned/Catelyn...

I agree that marrying cousins was an accepted practice amongst most noble houses in Europe and Asia, plus in all GRRM book its not mentioned what kind of cousin Joanne was to Tywin, she might have been cousin once removed or more and still a cousin, even if it wasn't its still considered more or less normal at this time everyone on Earth except USA and maybe some couple of countries (US its illegal to marry unless bride and groom are at least 4 x removed. I read it somewhere).

Secondly, while its considered Ok for Targ's to marry brother and sister to maintain the bloodline pure, it was because they were considered "the other" and strange and all had their "dragon blood", so people accepted that. Lannisters - its not accepted, in AFFC one of the Cersei's memories includes Joanna, her mother, catching her and Jaime and being horrified. In fact, Cersei recalls being relieved that her mother had died because now she could be with Jaime freely. Both of them still kept it secret from their father because they were afraid of how he will react. Its obvious that insest wasn't accepted to Lannisters.

Thirdly, Jon and Arya might be cousins (if L+R=J is true) but they were raised as siblings, and they won't even consider marrying each other because for Starks insest wasn't acceptable. Forthermore, pretty sure that in minds of most readers Arya and Jon are linked as siblings, whatever new revelations might to pass, and thats why it would disgust most of them even to consider J+A. However, Dany and Jon never met or even heard of each other till perhaps aDwD, they are not linked as siblings in readers minds, so most readers its OK if they get together.

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\plus in all GRRM book its not mentioned what kind of cousin Joanne was to Tywin, she might have been cousin once removed or more and still a cousin, even if it wasn't its still considered more or less normal at this time everyone on Earth except USA and maybe some couple of countries (US its illegal to marry unless bride and groom are at least 4 x removed. I read it somewhere).

Joanna was born Joanna Lannister, and she is Tywin's first cousin by blood. The Family Tree on the Wiki confirms it.

It is legal everywhere in the US to marry your second cousin.

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Joanna was born Joanna Lannister, and she is Tywin's first cousin by blood. The Family Tree on the Wiki confirms it.

It is legal everywhere in the US to marry your second cousin.

I recall reading somewhere that she was his first cousin?

This really isn't my strong point, so I'm not sure whether this is right or wrong.

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Apologies if this has been mentioned previously, I admit the length of this string is intimidating. Nonetheless, here's my theory.

1) R+L = J. I think we've gone over the reasons enough

2) Ned + Ashara Dayne = A baby with violet eyes

3) Ashara was Elia's lady in Kings Landing, but left before the sack.

4) Ashara was forced to switch her + Ned's child with Aegon because they looked similar esp. the Dayne eyes.

5) Ned defeats the Kingsguard at ToJ, including his son's uncle, Arthur Dayne

6) Ned finds Lyanna with her child, at that time low in the line of succession but given current events still a possible heir to the Iron Throne, and promises to protect him and/or all of Rhaegar's children.

7) Ned returns Dawn to Starfall with news of Arthur's death, where Ashara kills herself because of the triple tradgedy of losing Eddard to Catelyn, losing her child to the Mountain, and losing her brother to the man she loves.

Can anyone debunk this, especially the Aegon/N+A Baby switch?

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Joanna was born Joanna Lannister, and she is Tywin's first cousin by blood. The Family Tree on the Wiki confirms it.

It is legal everywhere in the US to marry your second cousin.

Oh, well, if the wiki says it... :rolleyes:

Joanna is only ever called "a cousin," which is ambiguous. We don't know how closely related they were.

ETA: Stark Truth:

Is there any character of the right age and looks to be Aegon? This is the big problem with him being alive; it makes no sense to have the heir to the throne show up out of nowhere after four books. It's lame.

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Can anyone debunk this, especially the Aegon/N+A Baby switch?

That's a perfectly reasonable theory IMO. Would Ned cheat on Catelyn though? I'm unconvinced unless the baby was conceived before Ned married Cat, and he never knew.

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That's a perfectly reasonable theory IMO. Would Ned cheat on Catelyn though? I'm unconvinced unless the baby was conceived before Ned married Cat, and he never knew.

Yeah that's one of the things I'm assuming, that the baby was born before Ned married Cat. Not unreasonable since Ned & Ashara clearly hit it off at Harrenhal.

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During Sam's first day at the wall, he and Jon get to know one another, and Jon reveals a rather interesting recurring dream that troubles him:

~~"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked. Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good. I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake."~~

I don't recall this being brought up before, but, after starting a re-read of the series and reaching this chapter in aGoT I can't help but wonder who or what in the crypts would frighten Jon so. At this point, Ned is still very much alive in King's Landing (he's still awaiting the book on geneology from Pycelle). Bran and Rickon do not dream of Eddard in the Winterfell crypts until after his death, so I don't believe that this dream is foreshadowing Eddard's death. I wonder if this dread that Jon experiences in the crypts is actually the fear of finding out his true heritage. Surely it's easier just to accept the established 'truth' that he's the bastard son of Ned Stark. Of course at this time he has no inkling of the possibility that Lyanna could be his mother, but what else is there in those crypts?

We'd use a torch to illuminate a dark place, and in this case, perhaps the torch, or lack thereof is representative of Jon's lack of guidance in his desire to learn more of his background. Without direction he's going to stumble blindly through rumoured possibilities (Wylla/Ashara).

I wonder if something will prompt Jon to return to Winterfell, specifically to visit the crypts to confront this fear.

(Hope this makes sense, if not, feel free to slap my face and call me Hodor)

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During Sam's first day at the wall, he and Jon get to know one another, and Jon reveals a rather interesting recurring dream that troubles him:

~~"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked. Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good. I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake."~~

I don't recall this being brought up before, but, after starting a re-read of the series and reaching this chapter in aGoT I can't help but wonder who or what in the crypts would frighten Jon so. At this point, Ned is still very much alive in King's Landing (he's still awaiting the book on geneology from Pycelle). Bran and Rickon do not dream of Eddard in the Winterfell crypts until after his death, so I don't believe that this dream is foreshadowing Eddard's death. I wonder if this dread that Jon experiences in the crypts is actually the fear of finding out his true heritage. Surely it's easier just to accept the established 'truth' that he's the bastard son of Ned Stark. Of course at this time he has no inkling of the possibility that Lyanna could be his mother, but what else is there in those crypts?

We'd use a torch to illuminate a dark place, and in this case, perhaps the torch, or lack thereof is representative of Jon's lack of guidance in his desire to learn more of his background. Without direction he's going to stumble blindly through rumoured possibilities (Wylla/Ashara).

I wonder if something will prompt Jon to return to Winterfell, specifically to visit the crypts to confront this fear.

(Hope this makes sense, if not, feel free to slap my face and call me Hodor)

It might be that he is dreaming this dream 1) because Lyanna's body there and she is his mother so he is compelled to go there or 2) Foreshadowing that he is the "Last" one of Starks' blood remaining and only one left to go there.

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We have no evidence that other Houses practiced cousin incest.

I have to correct myself from my reread of ASoS. Lysa Arryn flat out asks Sansa if she would like to marry her cousin (Robert Arryn), and Sansa's internal monologue focuses on the fact that she will not be able to marry for love but rather for her claim. However, there is objection to the fact that Robert is her cousin.

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It might be that he is dreaming this dream 1) because Lyanna's body there and she is his mother so he is compelled to go there or 2) Foreshadowing that he is the "Last" one of Starks' blood remaining and only one left to go there.

I think this was less important than it may seem. He is simply expressing his frustration over being a bastard and hence alone/different. That theme was recurrent on the Wall in GoT.

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I am thinking that Jon's dream was just a normal nightmare of his fear of being alone. And as far as he knows, all his siblings and family are dead.

I can not wait to see what is revealed in ADWD especially with Barriston being a PoV from GRRM's website.

Seeing him and Tyrion teach Danny how insane her dad was will also be nice.

But back to Jon.......I wonder when he will find out for sure who his mom and dad were. THAT is the moment I can not wait for. Howland Reed FTW!

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I have to correct myself from my reread of ASoS. Lysa Arryn flat out asks Sansa if she would like to marry her cousin (Robert Arryn), and Sansa's internal monologue focuses on the fact that she will not be able to marry for love but rather for her claim. However, there is objection to the fact that Robert is her cousin.

Is it the objection to the fact that Robert is her cousin or is it more because he is so young (~6?) and disgust of him still being at his mother's breast?

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Is it the objection to the fact that Robert is her cousin or is it more because he is so young (~6?) and disgust of him still being at his mother's breast?

the objection is that she knows the marriage will likely be loveless, and that Lysa just wants her son (or grandson) to have Sansa's claim to Winterfell and the North. My very point was that she didn't think twice about the fact that it was her cousin.

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