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The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

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the objection is that she knows the marriage will likely be loveless, and that Lysa just wants her son (or grandson) to have Sansa's claim to Winterfell and the North. My very point was that she didn't think twice about the fact that it was her cousin.

I think its just Sansa being Sansa and not getting her fairy-tale ending. Even considering everything that has happened to her she still can't shake her preconceived notions of happy endings.

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R+L=J is the only reason for Ned to keep a secret of the mother. And why take the child from it's mother? Mr. Death before dishonor doesn't seem like the bastard making type.

Consider Roberts kill all Targeryns approach keeping Jon secret makes perfect sense. His existence would cause a freaking north vs. south civil war.

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Consider Roberts kill all Targeryns approach keeping Jon secret makes perfect sense. His existence would cause a freaking north vs. south civil war.

I'm still not entirely convinced Robert would have murdered Lyanna's child - even by Rhaegar. There would be a risk of future resentment or even a claim to the throne but I think Robert's hatred for Targs would be mitigated by his feelings for Lyanna.

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I'm still not entirely convinced Robert would have murdered Lyanna's child - even by Rhaegar. There would be a risk of future resentment or even a claim to the throne but I think Robert's hatred for Targs would be mitigated by his feelings for Lyanna.

Hmmm...don't know if I agree. Robert believes Lyanna was raped, so any child of hers would not only be a Targaryen but also the embodiment of Rhaegar's violation of Lyanna. So I think he would be even more emotionally invested in killing Jon.

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Hmmm...don't know if I agree. Robert believes Lyanna was raped, so any child of hers would not only be a Targaryen but also the embodiment of Rhaegar's violation of Lyanna. So I think he would be even more emotionally invested in killing Jon.

Would that still apply years down the line? If R+L=J then I do think Ned's secrecy was a totally wise precaution, not purely because of Robert. Circa AGoT, I definitely don't think Robert would have had Jon Snow killed if he'd learned his lineage. Only if he became a threat, like Dany and Viserys, whose prolonged existence Robert tolerated provided they stayed on the wrong side of the Narrow Sea.

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Would that still apply years down the line? If R+L=J then I do think Ned's secrecy was a totally wise precaution, not purely because of Robert. Circa AGoT, I definitely don't think Robert would have had Jon Snow killed if he'd learned his lineage. Only if he became a threat, like Dany and Viserys, whose prolonged existence Robert tolerated provided they stayed on the wrong side of the Narrow Sea.

That's a good question. If he found out Jon was still alive around the time of AGoT, then I think he'd feel a combination of shock/betrayal that Ned would hide this from him. This combined with the fact that Jon would be Rhaegar's child in particular would, I think, make Robert want to kill him. IMO of course.

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Would that still apply years down the line? If R+L=J then I do think Ned's secrecy was a totally wise precaution, not purely because of Robert. Circa AGoT, I definitely don't think Robert would have had Jon Snow killed if he'd learned his lineage. Only if he became a threat, like Dany and Viserys, whose prolonged existence Robert tolerated provided they stayed on the wrong side of the Narrow Sea.

Maybe he wouldn't later on but he always talked of killing all Targies. At the time of Jon's birth if he is legit and not a bastard he would have been the legit heir to the the throne, a threat and hated by Robert because he was Targ and would be perceived rape child of his late love crush, and half Stark one of the most powerful and influential houses. And in large part because of house locations and banner men it would have dragged the land right back into a civil war North vs. South because I couldn't see Ned stepping aside and letting Robert kill Jon nor do I see Robert allowing that threat to live. Makes sense to keep it secret enforced by honor if his sister made him promise on her death bed.

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I'm still not entirely convinced Robert would have murdered Lyanna's child - even by Rhaegar. There would be a risk of future resentment or even a claim to the throne but I think Robert's hatred for Targs would be mitigated by his feelings for Lyanna.

Besides the fact that Rhaegar's son by Lyanna would be a constant reminder to Robert that he won the battle of the Trident but lost the war for Lyanna's heart, Robert was prepared to send assassins to kill Daenerys and her unborn child even though at that point the Dothraki were no threat to them on the other side of the Narrow Sea. Robert didn't just want to destroy everything of Rhaegar out of personal hatred, he wanted to destroy any and all Targaryen claimants to the throne. And if he didn't do it himself, one of those Lannisters might have tried to wipe out any threat to Robert's assumed offspring.

Even if Robert would have spared Jon for Lyanna and Ned's sake, a bastard son of Rhaegar could have been used against him by someone. For example, the Martells were furious about the murders of Elia and her children by Tywin Lannister's men. The fact that the Lannisters had married into the royal family and refused justice for Elia was a sore point. If one of the Dornish princes learned of Lyanna's (Dornish-born) child by Rhaegar, they may have tried to use Jon to get back at Robert and Tywin Lannister.

Anyway, the point is, Ned had good reason to keep his promise to Lyanna and keep the secret of Jon's identity.

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Besides the fact that Rhaegar's son by Lyanna would be a constant reminder to Robert that he won the battle of the Trident but lost the war for Lyanna's heart, Robert was prepared to send assassins to kill Daenerys and her unborn child even though at that point the Dothraki were no threat to them on the other side of the Narrow Sea. Robert didn't just want to destroy everything of Rhaegar out of personal hatred, he wanted to destroy any and all Targaryen claimants to the throne. And if he didn't do it himself, one of those Lannisters might have tried to wipe out any threat to Robert's assumed offspring.

Even if Robert would have spared Jon for Lyanna and Ned's sake, a bastard son of Rhaegar could have been used against him by someone. For example, the Martells were furious about the murders of Elia and her children by Tywin Lannister's men. The fact that the Lannisters had married into the royal family and refused justice for Elia was a sore point. If one of the Dornish princes learned of Lyanna's (Dornish-born) child by Rhaegar, they may have tried to use Jon to get back at Robert and Tywin Lannister.

Anyway, the point is, Ned had good reason to keep his promise to Lyanna and keep the secret of Jon's identity.

Robert has more claim to the throne then a bastard of Rhaegar. And he let Viserys and Dany do whatever they wanted, stay with whoever they wanted for a decade and a half until they made an alliance with the Dothraki. If he isn't going to care about the actual legitimate crownprince until he does something, he certainly isn't going to kill a bastard and a child of Lyanna's over it. Moreover, even when Robert eventually does do something, this is a gigantic surprise to Ned. He was shocked that after all this time he still hated Rhaegar, he was shocked that Robert would actually go for killing a child, he specifically says that the Robert he knew wasn't someone to fear a shadow of the threat.

You're telling me that 14 years ago, Ned thought that Robert would kill Jon because he is Rhaegar's bastard? Also we have no idea what Lyanna's promise was. There are a hundred things other then keeping the truth from Robert she could have wanted.

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Robert has more claim to the throne then a bastard of Rhaegar.

Who would care? Martell, Tyrell, anyone who wanted rid of Robert would either come up with a legal argument or just claim there was a secret marriage. The matter would be settled on the battlefield, just like Robert's kingship was.

And he let Viserys and Dany do whatever they wanted, stay with whoever they wanted for a decade and a half until they made an alliance with the Dothraki. If he isn't going to care about the actual legitimate crownprince until he does something, he certainly isn't going to kill a bastard and a child of Lyanna's over it.

He did try and capture them on Dragonstone but they got out before the fleet could arrive. Once they were over in the Free Cities it's easier to let them slide.

Moreover, even when Robert eventually does do something, this is a gigantic surprise to Ned. He was shocked that after all this time he still hated Rhaegar, he was shocked that Robert would actually go for killing a child, he specifically says that the Robert he knew wasn't someone to fear a shadow of the threat.

Ned's surprised the hatred is still that strong. Which implies it was quite strong fifteen years ago, doesn't it?. He attempts to shame Robert out of it, but his incredulity is that it hasn't ebbed with time, not that it's out of character.

You're telling me that 14 years ago, Ned thought that Robert would kill Jon because he is Rhaegar's bastard?

He did, or Lyanna did. And Jon might not even be a bastard. Not that much of a stretch.

Also we have no idea what Lyanna's promise was. There are a hundred things other then keeping the truth from Robert she could have wanted.

Name seventeen, then.

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Robert has more claim to the throne then a bastard of Rhaegar. And he let Viserys and Dany do whatever they wanted, stay with whoever they wanted for a decade and a half until they made an alliance with the Dothraki. If he isn't going to care about the actual legitimate crownprince until he does something, he certainly isn't going to kill a bastard and a child of Lyanna's over it. Moreover, even when Robert eventually does do something, this is a gigantic surprise to Ned. He was shocked that after all this time he still hated Rhaegar, he was shocked that Robert would actually go for killing a child, he specifically says that the Robert he knew wasn't someone to fear a shadow of the threat.

You're telling me that 14 years ago, Ned thought that Robert would kill Jon because he is Rhaegar's bastard? Also we have no idea what Lyanna's promise was. There are a hundred things other then keeping the truth from Robert she could have wanted.

No, I'm saying that an infant born to Rhaegar, legitimate or otherwise, has two strikes against it as far as Robert or the Lannisters are concerned, personal and political: he's a constant reminder that Rhaegar had Lyanna and he's a Targaryen on his father's side. It wouldn't be logical for a bastard to be killed if he had no rightful claim, but then so many things have happened in this story are based on paranoia and fear. Cersei's children have no better claim than Jon but she schemes to make sure no one discovers the truth about their parentage. Given the fact that Ned saw Robert's reaction to the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children and ordering the murder of a 14 year old Daenerys, it's perfectly reasonable for Ned to assume that any child of Rhaegar or Targaryen would be a potential target. Would Robert want to kill a teenage Jon if he found out the truth? I don't know, but it would cause a serious rift between Lord Stark and the King, Ned might be seen as a traitor, and that has implications for everyone.

Also, as Ramsay Bolton proves, bastards can be legitimized...if Tommen could legitimize him, why couldn't a Prince of Dorne who has his own ambitions and a grudge, legitimize a Dornish-born son of Rhaegar? It doesn't mean anyone would take the claim seriously except those who have an interest in disrupting Lannister influence.

Yeah, this is probably a crack theory given that Jon is a Northman by virtue of Ned's claim, but the Martells are not above scheming, as their plotting regarding Myrcella proves.

The point is, for a variety of reasons Ned had good reason to want to keep Jon's parentage a secret.

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Who would care? Martell, Tyrell, anyone who wanted rid of Robert would either come up with a legal argument or just claim there was a secret marriage. The matter would be settled on the battlefield, just like Robert's kingship was.

Yes, the Martells are gonna claim there was a secret marriage. Between Lyanna, Robert bethrothed, and man already married to one of their own houses ladies. And anyone overthrowing anyone on the battlefield would hardly need Rhaegars bastard at all.

He did try and capture them on Dragonstone but they got out before the fleet could arrive. Once they were over in the Free Cities it's easier to let them slide.

Stannis tried to capture them. The guy that Robert disowned as far the Stormlands go right afterwards in favor of 8 year old Renly.

Ned's surprised the hatred is still that strong. Which implies it was quite strong fifteen years ago, doesn't it?. He attempts to shame Robert out of it, but his incredulity is that it hasn't ebbed with time, not that it's out of character.

You are going ignore that Ned explicitly says that Robert he knew would never be capable of such a thing?

He did, or Lyanna did. And Jon might not even be a bastard. Not that much of a stretch.

Considering that polygamy was no longer practiced after it caused another civil war way back when and Elia outlived Rhaegar (if barely), I'd say the odds are quite slim.

Seriously, if Ned always though Robert was completely down with killing infants for what they might very unlikely be led to do in some circumstance years in the future then the entire plot of Game of Thrones is destroyed. This is a major plot point we are ignoring here.

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Yes, the Martells are gonna claim there was a secret marriage. Between Lyanna, Robert bethrothed, and man already married to one of their own houses ladies. And anyone overthrowing anyone on the battlefield would hardly need Rhaegars bastard at all.

They have a much better claim if they can produce a Targ, bastard or no. For one, it's easier to portray a Tyrell/Martell/Plantagenet power grab as a Targaryen restoration, especially if you've got the son of Noble Prince Rhaegar.

Stannis tried to capture them. The guy that Robert disowned as far the Stormlands go right afterwards in favor of 8 year old Renly.

What's that got to do with anything? You think he just borrowed the royal fleet without telling his bro?

You are going ignore that Ned explicitly says that Robert he knew would never be capable of such a thing?

Would you mind quoting it? In the meantime here's something to chew on:

“Daenerys Targaryen has wed some Dothraki horselord. What of it? Shall we send her a wedding gift?”

The king frowned. “A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it.”

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

AGOT, Eddard II p.112 (Voyager)

Considering that polygamy was no longer practiced after it caused another civil war way back when and Elia outlived Rhaegar (if barely), I'd say the odds are quite slim.

Secret marriage, why not a secret divorce?

Seriously, if Ned always though Robert was completely down with killing infants for what they might very unlikely be led to do in some circumstance years in the future then the entire plot of Game of Thrones is destroyed. This is a major plot point we are ignoring here.

Looks pretty destroyed then.

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Yes, the Martells are gonna claim there was a secret marriage. Between Lyanna, Robert bethrothed, and man already married to one of their own houses ladies. And anyone overthrowing anyone on the battlefield would hardly need Rhaegars bastard at all...

Why not? Elia was murdered along with her children and never avenged or at least not to their satisfaction and then only very belatedly. Daenerys (and Viserys) were exiled and an emmisary from Dorne is on his way to woo Daenerys. The Targaryens did have a history of polygamy and Lyanna was in Dorne at the time her child was born as far as we know.

Of course, none of this makes Jon a trueborn son of Rhaegar but who's to say Prince Doran couldn't claim that Rhaegar had secretly married Lyanna just to throw doubt on the legitimacy of Robert's rule or his heirs' claim to the throne? When he's in KL, Prince Oberyn makes veiled threats to crown Myrcella, who is just resident (hostage) in Dorne, based on Dornish rules of succession. That claim wouldn't have any force in Kings Landing where Tommen is acknowledged King, but not everyone loves the Lannisters and some would probably side with Dorne if they make a play for the Iron throne based on that.

You are going ignore that Ned explicitly says that Robert he knew would never be capable of such a thing?

Considering that polygamy was no longer practiced after it caused another civil war way back when and Elia outlived Rhaegar (if barely), I'd say the odds are quite slim.

Seriously, if Ned always though Robert was completely down with killing infants for what they might very unlikely be led to do in some circumstance years in the future then the entire plot of Game of Thrones is destroyed. This is a major plot point we are ignoring here.

Ned hopes that Robert is the man he used to be and not the man he feared he'd become. Ned wanted to believe Robert is the boy he grew up with, fought beside and loved, but Robert is not. When Lyanna tells Ned that Robert would never keep to one bed, Ned told her he believed that Robert loved Lyanna and his past behaviors (whoring) would change after their marriage. Lyanna wisely says that love doesn't change a man's nature. Ned left KL after the sack in disgust that Robert would justify (and be pleased about) the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children. Ned quits as Hand because he can't abide Robert's decision to send assassins after Daenerys and her unborn child.

Robert was not rational on the subject of Rhaegar and has a fear of Targaryens' potential claims on the throne. He believed that Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar. If he could rationalize the murder of Rhaegar's legitimate children and siblings and even the Princess of Dorne who had no claim on the throne, Ned had reason to fear Robert would be irrational about Lyanna's son by Rhaegar whom Robert would assume was a product of rape. Robert might even rationalize that he was avenging Lyanna by killing Jon.

Why is the entire plot destroyed by the fact that Robert has condoned the murder of babies for personal or political reasons? Robert is a complicated human being. He's not a complete monster but he's not a saint. That's true of many of the characters in these books and I think it makes them interesting.

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Why not? Elia was murdered along with her children and never avenged or at least not to their satisfaction and then only very belatedly. Daenerys (and Viserys) were exiled and an emmisary from Dorne is on his way to woo Daenerys. The Targaryens did have a history of polygamy and Lyanna was in Dorne at the time her child was born as far as we know.

Of course, none of this makes Jon a trueborn son of Rhaegar but who's to say Prince Doran couldn't claim that Rhaegar had secretly married Lyanna just to throw doubt on the legitimacy of Robert's rule or his heirs' claim to the throne? When he's in KL, Prince Oberyn makes veiled threats to crown Myrcella, who is just resident (hostage) in Dorne, based on Dornish rules of succession. That claim wouldn't have any force in Kings Landing where Tommen is acknowledged King, but not everyone loves the Lannisters and some would probably side with Dorne if they make a play for the Iron throne based on that.

Ned hopes that Robert is the man he used to be and not the man he feared he'd become. Ned wanted to believe Robert is the boy he grew up with, fought beside and loved, but Robert is not. When Lyanna tells Ned that Robert would never keep to one bed, Ned told her he believed that Robert loved Lyanna and his past behaviors (whoring) would change after their marriage. Lyanna wisely says that love doesn't change a man's nature. Ned left KL after the sack in disgust that Robert would justify (and be pleased about) the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children. Ned quits as Hand because he can't abide Robert's decision to send assassins after Daenerys and her unborn child.

Robert was not rational on the subject of Rhaegar and has a fear of Targaryens' potential claims on the throne. He believed that Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar. If he could rationalize the murder of Rhaegar's legitimate children and siblings and even the Princess of Dorne who had no claim on the throne, Ned had reason to fear Robert would be irrational about Lyanna's son by Rhaegar whom Robert would assume was a product of rape. Robert might even rationalize that he was avenging Lyanna by killing Jon.

Why is the entire plot destroyed by the fact that Robert has condoned the murder of babies for personal or political reasons? Robert is a complicated human being. He's not a complete monster but he's not a saint. That's true of many of the characters in these books and I think it makes them interesting.

If you look at the book the whole plot is driven around love and babies and the secrets and beefs surrounding it. It would seem Jon is a main character and that if R + L = J than the whole book rebellion and following wars are largely based around Jon's parents love/rape and his conception. Little Fingers plot is largely allowed due to the dysfunction of the arranged marriage to hold strong ties Baratheon and Lannisters. Varys who's plot seems to go well with LF's is doing it seems to get Targs back on the throne. So it seems fit that a main character would be birthed from the heart of all the conflict.

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They have a much better claim if they can produce a Targ, bastard or no. For one, it's easier to portray a Tyrell/Martell/Plantagenet power grab as a Targaryen restoration, especially if you've got the son of Noble Prince Rhaegar.

And they didn't pick a random boy of the street why? After the ToJ Ned went to Evenhall and stayed their long enough that they thought he produced Jon in the time he spend there. He arrived in KL with his black hair and black eyes and classic Stark looks.

What's that got to do with anything? You think he just borrowed the royal fleet without telling his bro?

I think he took the fleet to conquer Dragonstone, you know Targaryan stronghold? I don't remember any killing order for Dany and Viserys.

Would you mind quoting it? In the meantime here's something to chew on:

Ned 335 GoT: "I thought you a better man than this [ordering the death of a child]. I thought we made a better king [while my men were hiding a child I feared you would order the death of if you learned his identity.

Secret marriage, why not a secret divorce?

Because I think you need Elia's involvement for that. You know, who was at the Red Keep. Remember what was going there after Rhaegar disappeared?

Of course, none of this makes Jon a trueborn son of Rhaegar but who's to say Prince Doran couldn't claim that Rhaegar had secretly married Lyanna just to throw doubt on the legitimacy of Robert's rule or his heirs' claim to the throne? When he's in KL, Prince Oberyn makes veiled threats to crown Myrcella, who is just resident (hostage) in Dorne, based on Dornish rules of succession. That claim wouldn't have any force in Kings Landing where Tommen is acknowledged King, but not everyone loves the Lannisters and some would probably side with Dorne if they make a play for the Iron throne based on that.

They can claim Robert is not Baratheon at all too, with about as much evidence.

Ned hopes that Robert is the man he used to be and not the man he feared he'd become. Ned wanted to believe Robert is the boy he grew up with, fought beside and loved, but Robert is not. When Lyanna tells Ned that Robert would never keep to one bed, Ned told her he believed that Robert loved Lyanna and his past behaviors (whoring) would change after their marriage. Lyanna wisely says that love doesn't change a man's nature. Ned left KL after the sack in disgust that Robert would justify (and be pleased about) the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children. Ned quits as Hand because he can't abide Robert's decision to send assassins after Daenerys and her unborn child.

And became the Hand for the sake of his friend. Who he apparently, even after being capable of looking the other way after arriving with deed already done, did thik he could talk out of ordering these things himself.

Robert was not rational on the subject of Rhaegar and has a fear of Targaryens' potential claims on the throne. He believed that Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar. If he could rationalize the murder of Rhaegar's legitimate children and siblings and even the Princess of Dorne who had no claim on the throne, Ned had reason to fear Robert would be irrational about Lyanna's son by Rhaegar whom Robert would assume was a product of rape. Robert might even rationalize that he was avenging Lyanna by killing Jon.

Why is the entire plot destroyed by the fact that Robert has condoned the murder of babies for personal or political reasons? Robert is a complicated human being. He's not a complete monster but he's not a saint. That's true of many of the characters in these books and I think it makes them interesting.

He's not a saint. He already had an appetite for woman, food and drink before becoming king and Ned was shocked what the years had done to him physically and emotionally. Ned can at times only hope he'd be the man he once knew when the time came that he needs to count on him.

The man he once was, Ned always considered capable of killing 1 year olds in a heartbeat. That does ruin the point of Roberts character I should think. And if not that. You can also define him by his love for Lyanna and his hate for Rhaegar.

But then you guys also think that Ned fully knows that Lyanna was merely in love with Rhaegar, and Ned thought Robert would in fact be better off thinking Lyanna was kidnapped, raped repeatedly and eventually murdered, then happy with a man that is not Robert. And at no point in the 14 years that Robert suffered under said delusion (and if the tomb scene is any indication, the matter was quite vividly still on his mind) did Ned think otherwise.

So Ned basically has a lower opinion of his best friend then Cersei and the man he once knew would be just as on board with killing some Targaryans as the man he was dealing with.

I'm sorry but that knowledge would spoil a lot of emotional moments in Game of Thrones for me. If not Ned's whole plot line.

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And they didn't pick a random boy of the street why? After the ToJ Ned went to Evenhall and stayed their long enough that they thought he produced Jon in the time he spend there. He arrived in KL with his black hair and black eyes and classic Stark looks.

I think he took the fleet to conquer Dragonstone, you know Targaryan stronghold? I don't remember any killing order for Dany and Viserys.

Ned 335 GoT: "I thought you a better man than this [ordering the death of a child]. I thought we made a better king [while my men were hiding a child I feared you would order the death of if you learned his identity.

Because I think you need Elia's involvement for that. You know, who was at the Red Keep. Remember what was going there after Rhaegar disappeared?

They can claim Robert is not Baratheon at all too, with about as much evidence.

And became the Hand for the sake of his friend. Who he apparently, even after being capable of looking the other way after arriving with deed already done, did thik he could talk out of ordering these things himself.

He's not a saint. He already had an appetite for woman, food and drink before becoming king and Ned was shocked what the years had done to him physically and emotionally. Ned can at times only hope he'd be the man he once knew when the time came that he needs to count on him.

The man he once was, Ned always considered capable of killing 1 year olds in a heartbeat. That does ruin the point of Roberts character I should think. And if not that. You can also define him by his love for Lyanna and his hate for Rhaegar.

But then you guys also think that Ned fully knows that Lyanna was merely in love with Rhaegar, and Ned thought Robert would in fact be better off thinking Lyanna was kidnapped, raped repeatedly and eventually murdered, then happy with a man that is not Robert. And at no point in the 14 years that Robert suffered under said delusion (and if the tomb scene is any indication, the matter was quite vividly still on his mind) did Ned think otherwise.

So Ned basically has a lower opinion of his best friend then Cersei and the man he once knew would be just as on board with killing some Targaryans as the man he was dealing with.

I'm sorry but that knowledge would spoil a lot of emotional moments in Game of Thrones for me. If not Ned's whole plot line.

Maybe keeping him a secret was part of his promise to Lyanna. And a promise to a loved person on her death bed can't be broken easily, especially by Ned Stark.

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Maybe keeping him a secret was part of his promise to Lyanna. And a promise to a loved person on her death bed can't be broken easily, especially by Ned Stark.

If the promise was "Promise me Ned, don't tell Robert anything." Then yeah, I'm cool with it.

But I think the promise could very well be Lyanna telling Ned to shelter Jon from his destiny or something along those lines, cause though Ned found out enough to not hold anything against Rhaegar, he didn't have a real problem with Jon forsaking all his rights to join the Watch which I'n sure is going to pose a more immediate problem in the story then long dead Roberts feelings.

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I think he took the fleet to conquer Dragonstone, you know Targaryan stronghold? I don't remember any killing order for Dany and Viserys.

So what do you think Robert would have done with them instead?

Ned 335 GoT: "I thought you a better man than this [ordering the death of a child]. I thought we made a better king [while my men were hiding a child I feared you would order the death of if you learned his identity.

Ned is saying this directly to Robert in order to shame him, to prevent him from sending the assassin to kill Daenerys. So that's not really evidence that that's what Ned actually thinks.

However, let's say it is what Ned actually thinks. After all, Robert never actually ordered Rhaenys and baby Aegon to be killed, that was Tywin's doing. Robert did condone it afterwards, but Robert says a lot of things he doesn't mean (like saying that Bran should be put down because he's a cripple). So from Ned's perspective, it's not so unreasonable to think that maybe, just maybe, Robert would never actually go through with ordering the death of children (this is before their conversation about Daenerys, of course).

But (and this is a big "but"), if Jon is truly Lyanna's son by Rhaegar, would it have been wise for Ned to even risk the possibility that Robert would have him killed? Ned may want to believe that Robert would never actually go through with it if he ever found out, but why take that chance? No, it's more prudent for Ned to simply hide Jon's true heritage from Robert, rather than risk his wrath, even if he hopes that the Robert he knows would never actually kill a child.

But then you guys also think that Ned fully knows that Lyanna was merely in love with Rhaegar, and Ned thought Robert would in fact be better off thinking Lyanna was kidnapped, raped repeatedly and eventually murdered, then happy with a man that is not Robert. And at no point in the 14 years that Robert suffered under said delusion (and if the tomb scene is any indication, the matter was quite vividly still on his mind) did Ned think otherwise.

It's not that Ned thinks Robert would be better off believing Lyanna was raped; it's that Robert is stubborn and willful, and there's likely nothing Ned can do to change his opinion on that subject, so why bother?

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