The R+L=J thread, part XI

[DurararaFTW]

So what do you think Robert would have done with them instead?

What Robert would have done with them? Robert wasn't King quite yet. It would be up to Ned, Jon, Tywin, Hoster and Robert.

But (and this is a big "but"), if Jon is truly Lyanna's son by Rhaegar, would it have been wise for Ned to even risk the possibility that Robert would have him killed? Ned may want to believe that Robert would never actually go through with it if he ever found out, but why take that chance? No, it's more prudent for Ned to simply hide Jon's true heritage from Robert, rather than risk his wrath, even if he hopes that the Robert he knows would never actually kill a child.

Ned does not have a lifetime of having done wise things behind him. He has a lifetime of doing honourable stuff behind him. To lie about who Jon is, and letting Rhaegar go down in history as a rapist rather then his sister's love, I'm gonna need more then Ned playing it safe, just in case.

It's not that Ned thinks Robert would be better off believing Lyanna was raped; it's that Robert is stubborn and willful, and there's likely nothing Ned can do to change his opinion on that subject, so why bother?

Stubborn and willful? Ned arrives with Lyanna's body and Robert is not willing to listen to his take on how she died? And Ned just goes along with Robert's story too? I hope Howland has a fullblown flashback to that conversation. I'd like to see how that went.

[Dragonfish]

Ned does not have a lifetime of having done wise things behind him.

Ned helped win a rebellion, but yeah, it's best to assume that there's no way he could ever do anything wise ever in his entire life, especially when it comes to someone he knows very well.

He has a lifetime of doing honourable stuff behind him. To lie about who Jon is, and letting Rhaegar go down in history as a rapist rather then his sister's love, I'm gonna need more then Ned playing it safe, just in case.

Ned at one point states that it's possible for a lie to have honor, when Arya mentions she lied to save Nymeria. So if lying to the king and queen to save a wolf can have honor, then why can't lying to save your nephew also have honor?

Also, remember that at the end of the book, Ned does lie, and hurts his honor in the process, but he does so in order to save his daughters.

And as for "letting Rhaegar go down in history as a rapist rather then his sister's love", what the hell else is Ned supposed to do? Go back to all the people who fought hard for him and Robert, and say, "Great job guys, though you should know that my sister actually went willingly with the man who supposedly raped her." That would be a huge blow to the legitimacy of the Rebellion and Robert's reign, and that's assuming that everyone believes him.

Stubborn and willful?

Yes, stubborn and willful. What, you don't think Robert is stubborn? Are you reading the same book?

Ned arrives with Lyanna's body and Robert is not willing to listen to his take on how she died? And Ned just goes along with Robert's story too? I hope Howland has a fullblown flashback to that conversation. I'd like to see how that went.

Ummm...why are you assuming that Robert believes Rhaegar raped Lyanna because Ned told him so? Why can't it simply be that Robert has to believe she was kidnapped and raped, because otherwise what was the Rebellion for? He's already a broken man after losing Lyanna, imagine how he'd feel if he knew or accepted that she went willingly with Rhaegar. His heart would be broken, and one of the major motivations for his rebellion would be gone. It would destroy him. Ned doubtless knew that, and that's why he didn't try to disabuse him of his assumptions.

[Galen M]

Robert was fighting the rebellion to save his own head, as was Ned. After Brandon and Rickard were executed, Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn send him Ned and Robert's head. It was Brandon who rode South on the false assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped.

[Dragonfish]

Robert was fighting the rebellion to save his own head, as was Ned. After Brandon and Rickard were executed, Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn send him Ned and Robert's head. It was Brandon who rode South on the false assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped.

Notice that I said in my post that getting Lyanna back was "one of the major motivations for his rebellion." I'm aware that the Rebellion truly began when Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads. I just think that Robert was also fighting to get Lyanna back, and that her kidnapping, as well as Brandon and Rickard's executions, were the major justifications for fighting. They were part of the "narrative" of the war, if you will.

Besides, even if you don't accept the above, that doesn't contradict the argument that Robert needs to believe she was kidnapped, because to believe otherwise would break him fully and completely.

[Luin]

Ummm...why are you assuming that Robert believes Rhaegar raped Lyanna because Ned told him so? Why can't it simply be that Robert has to believe she was kidnapped and raped, because otherwise what was the Rebellion for? He's already a broken man after losing Lyanna, imagine how he'd feel if he knew or accepted that she went willingly with Rhaegar. His heart would be broken, and one of the major motivations for his rebellion would be gone. It would destroy him. Ned doubtless knew that, and that's why he didn't try to disabuse him of his assumptions.

He has by the end, he admits Rhaegar beat him even in death because he is with Lyanna and Robert is with Cersei. It would be a very strange thought that she decides to spend her afterlife with a rapist if that wasn't Robert finally coming to terms with Lyanna running off with Rhaegar and the rebellion being to save himself and Ned.

[Dragonfish]

He has by the end, he admits Rhaegar beat him even in death because he is with Lyanna and Robert is with Cersei. It would be a very strange thought that she decides to spend her afterlife with a rapist if that wasn't Robert finally coming to terms with Lyanna running off with Rhaegar and the rebellion being to save himself and Ned.

Uhhh...he says in that conversation that "Rhaegar has Lyanna", he never says that "Lyanna has willingly chosen to be with Rhaegar in the afterlife." Now, it's possible that Robert knows on some level that she went willingly, and that this quote is meant to show that. But I don't see any evidence that he came to accept it consciously.

[Luin]

Perhaps, I guess I remembered the quote a little bit out of order because that raised the flag to me that if both Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead, and Rhaegar has Lyanna that means Lyanna has chosen to be with him in the afterlife where rank, power, status, and wealth mean nothing.

[Dragonfish]

Perhaps, I guess I remembered the quote a little bit out of order because that raised the flag to me that if both Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead, and Rhaegar has Lyanna that means Lyanna has chosen to be with him in the afterlife where rank, power, status, and wealth mean nothing.

Hmmm...maybe. I think it's open to interpretation. It just so happens that the interpretation I prefer is that Robert knew on some level, but not consciously.

[Luin]

Hmmm...maybe. I think it's open to interpretation. It just so happens that the interpretation I prefer is that Robert knew on some level, but not consciously.

Definitely not consciously, I think consciously he genuinly believes that Lyanna was abducted simply because he can't think anything else; he invested too much of his own emotions and well being in her when she was alive and perhaps more when she was dead. But sub-consciously I think he realizes she ran off with a handsome, musical, cultured, and beloved prince. If he found a diary he would conclude that it is a forgery by an enemy agent, and if he found a ghost telling him what happened he would conclude that he was having a nightmare. Even if he wants to see just the truth the amount of love and other less positive emotions he invested in Lyanna are just too strong.

[Dragonfish]

Definitely not consciously, I think consciously he genuinly believes that Lyanna was abducted simply because he can't think anything else; he invested too much of his own emotions and well being in her when she was alive and perhaps more when she was dead. But sub-consciously I think he realizes she ran off with a handsome, musical, cultured, and beloved prince. If he found a diary he would conclude that it is a forgery by an enemy agent, and if he found a ghost telling him what happened he would conclude that he was having a nightmare. Even if he wants to see just the truth the amount of love and other less positive emotions he invested in Lyanna are just too strong.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:

[Luin]

Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbsup:

Thank you :cheers:

One of my favorite aspects of the conflict between Rhaegar and Robert is that it was a side conflict of the war (main conflict was Aerys sentenced Ned's and Robert's family to death) yet in the mind of Robert he can think of nothing else, and it shows every single time he tries (without success) to get Ned to agree with him to get some consolation.

[darrylzero]

Ned does not have a lifetime of having done wise things behind him. He has a lifetime of doing honourable stuff behind him. To lie about who Jon is, and letting Rhaegar go down in history as a rapist rather then his sister's love, I'm gonna need more then Ned playing it safe, just in case.

I think you're on to a few things here, but I wouldn't underestimate the possibility that it's the promise to Lyanna itself that carries the weight. It's an oath, of sorts, and look at how folk like Ned view oath-breakers. The whole system is built on the credibility of loyalty, in a way, which means that breaking a promise is a very big deal. Now, I'm offering a sociological explanation for it, but that's not how Ned experiences it. It's a strong norm, a code, a foundational piece of being the moral being he believes himself to be. I think for someone like Ned, lying might be bad, but breaking an oath is sin.

[DurararaFTW]

Ned at one point states that it's possible for a lie to have honor, when Arya mentions she lied to save Nymeria. So if lying to the king and queen to save a wolf can have honor, then why can't lying to save your nephew also have honor?

Also, remember that at the end of the book, Ned does lie, and hurts his honor in the process, but he does so in order to save his daughters.

Yeah, those lies didn't fundamentally change who Nymeria, Sansa Micah and Arya are forever.

Yes, stubborn and willful. What, you don't think Robert is stubborn? Are you reading the same book?

I don't think stubborn and willful cuts it here.

Robert disagrees with Ned on various things. That's quite something different from thinking he will completely fabricate a story concerning hoew his own sister died. At no point are we led to believe that Robert would think Ned would outright lie to him about anything.

Ummm...why are you assuming that Robert believes Rhaegar raped Lyanna because Ned told him so? Why can't it simply be that Robert has to believe she was kidnapped and raped, because otherwise what was the Rebellion for? He's already a broken man after losing Lyanna, imagine how he'd feel if he knew or accepted that she went willingly with Rhaegar. His heart would be broken, and one of the major motivations for his rebellion would be gone. It would destroy him. Ned doubtless knew that, and that's why he didn't try to disabuse him of his assumptions.

I don't think Ned was where the idea originally came from. Brandon got the info, and died because of it, along with whole slew of other people.

But after the rebellion, after he had won his throne, he still believed he love of his life was murdered after over a year of rape and abuse. And it destroyed him. And even seeing this happen to him, Ned never thought to tell him he was suffering needlessly. And this is his best friend. Where's the honour in that lie?

[Dragonfish]

Yeah, those lies didn't fundamentally change who Nymeria, Sansa Micah and Arya are forever.

I don't understand this. Are you saying that Ned's lie would fundamentally change who he was forever?

I don't think stubborn and willful cuts it here.

Robert disagrees with Ned on various things. That's quite something different from thinking he will completely fabricate a story concerning hoew his own sister died. At no point are we led to believe that Robert would think Ned would outright lie to him about anything.

First of all, you're conflating two things here. On the one hand, there's the fact that Robert believes Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. On the other hand, there's the fact that he believes she died in a particular way, let's say due to a fever. Now, R+L=J argues that Ned lied about the latter, or at least left out important bits (such as the fact that she had recently given birth). But nowhere does it necessarily say that Ned lied about the former, except through omission.

Now, as to your larger point, you seem to be assuming that if Ned told him the truth about Rhaegar, he would believe him. This is, I'm afraid to say, a laughable assertion. Robert has an almost irrational hatred of all Targaryens. For him to accept that the woman he loved went willingly with Rhaegar, he'd have to accept on some level that Rhaegar wasn't evil, and that his own actions during the war were in part wrong. And since most people want to believe their own actions are correct (especially stubborn people like Robert), he must persist in believing that the people he was fighting were evil, even in the face of evidence/testimony to the contrary. This is basic human psychology, here.

ETA--Oh, and as for your assertion that "at no point are we led to believe that Robert would think Ned would outright lie to him about anything", this is completely false. In AGoT, when Ned wakes up after Jaime's ambush, Robert refuses to take his side on things, explaining that it's his word against the Lannisters'. So that's specific textual support that Robert can refuse to believe something Ned says.

But after the rebellion, after he had won his throne, he still believed he love of his life was murdered after over a year of rape and abuse. And it destroyed him.

No, what destroyed him was the fact that the woman he risked everything for died, and all he got from it was a lousy kingship. If, on top of all that, Ned told him the woman he fought for didn't even love him but rather his rival, it would destroy him even further. That's partly why, I think, Ned doesn't tell him (the other reason being, it seems to me, that Robert would probably refuse to believe Ned anyway, and the two might become estranged as a result). Why is this so difficult for you to accept?

I mean, really, how exactly are you imagining this conversation between Ned and Robert?

N: "Hey Robert, you know how you keep insisting that Rhaegar Targaryen raped Lyanna?"

R: "Yeah."

N: "Well, here's the thing: he didn't rape her. She went with him willingly."

R: "She did?"

N: "Yes, she did."

R: "Phew, thanks for telling me, that's a load off!"

[DurararaFTW]

I don't understand this. Are you saying that Ned's lie would fundamentally change who he was forever?

Yeah. Ned's lie decided everything about what Jon's life would look like.

First of all, you're conflating two things here. On the one hand, there's the fact that Robert believes Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. On the other hand, there's the fact that he believes she died in a particular way, let's say due to a fever. Now, R+L=J argues that Ned lied about the latter, or at least left out important bits (such as the fact that she had recently given birth). But nowhere does it necessarily say that Ned lied about the former, except through omission.

And this contradicts what I was saying how? I assume that prior to the Tower of Joy, Ned thought the same things Brandon, Robert, Rickard everyone else did. And when he returned with Lyanna's body Robert ended up believing she was murdered or ssomething. I dunno how it happened, but whether Ned outright ever repeated Rhaegar raped Lyanna doesn't really matter in this. I don't think Ned went "Oh, phew, I managed to avoid saying that exact sentence. well my consiounce is completely clean."

Now, as to your larger point, you seem to be assuming that if Ned told him the truth about Rhaegar, he would believe him. This is, I'm afraid to say, a laughable assertion. Robert has an almost irrational hatred of all Targaryens. For him to accept that the woman he loved went willingly with Rhaegar, he'd have to accept on some level that Rhaegar wasn't evil, and that his own actions during the war were in part wrong. And since most people want to believe their own actions are correct (especially stubborn people like Robert), he must persist in believing that the people he was fighting were evil, even in the face of evidence/testimony to the contrary. This is basic human psychology, here.

His hatred caused by the idea that Lyanna was raped and murdered leads him to believe Lyanna was raped and murdered, leading him to hate Targaryans. That about right? And nothing about what Rhaegar did with Lyanna changes what Robert was doing in that war. Aerys burned Brandon, Rickard and various nothern bannermen alive. He then ordered Jon Arryn to deliver Robert and Ned's heads to him. Jon Arryn rose the banner of rebellion against him, Ned and Robert called their banners and led the war against Aerys. Rhaegar eventually appeared and led the loyalist army on Aerys' behalf, Robert killed him on the battlefield.

Now, Brandon may have gotten himself killed for nothing, Ned may have killed those Kingsguards for nothing (in fact I don't even know why they stopped him), I don't see where Robert was ever wrong in his part in the war. He may lose his drive, but again the war was over.

And seriously, he'd have difficulty accepting it. It would strain their friendship forever. I'm not saying it would be easy. It may take Ned his entire life to get Robert to accept it. How is that better then just leaving rampant Targaryan hating insane with grief King in charge of the realm and fleeing back to the North.

No, what destroyed him was the fact that the woman he risked everything for died, and all he got from it was a lousy kingship. If, on top of all that, Ned told him the woman he fought for didn't even love him but rather his rival, it would destroy him even further. That's partly why, I think, Ned doesn't tell him (the other reason being, it seems to me, that Robert would probably refuse to believe Ned anyway, and the two might become estranged as a result). Why is this so difficult for you to accept?

I mean, really, how exactly are you imagining this conversation between Ned and Robert?

N: "Hey Robert, you know how you keep insisting that Rhaegar Targaryen raped Lyanna?"

R: "Yeah."

N: "Well, here's the thing: he didn't rape her. She went with him willingly."

R: "She did?"

N: "Yes, she did."

R: "Phew, thanks for telling me, that's a load off!"

As opposed to WHAT? Robert tells Ned that he dreams of killing Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna every single night. Yeah, he may not be all that happy for it. But he'd stop believing Lyanna was raped over and over again. How is that not important? What Robert would eventually come to, is not important. He has a right to know. And if the knowledge that his beloved was happy is not important to him and all that was important to him was that he himself didn't have her, then that's not love is it? And Ned assured Lyanna that Robert truly loved her, in his own way.

In which case again, Robert would not a complex tragic character. He's just a selfish, wants to hate for the sake of hating childmurderer in addition to all his other flaws.

[Dragonfish]

Yeah. Ned's lie decided everything about what Jon's life would look like.

It also saved his life, so I don't see what you're point is.

And this contradicts what I was saying how?

You were conflating Ned lying about how Lyanna died with Ned neglecting to correct Robert's impression that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. I was just trying to un-conflate them so we could be clear on what we were talking about. To put it another way, I was just clearing my throat before moving on to your main argument.

I assume that prior to the Tower of Joy, Ned thought the same things Brandon, Robert, Rickard everyone else did. And when he returned with Lyanna's body Robert ended up believing she was murdered or ssomething.

Where are you getting the idea that Robert thinks she was murdered? IIRC, the only thing Robert says is that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, he doesn't say he murdered her. Unless I'm forgetting something, which is entirely possible.

His hatred caused by the idea that Lyanna was raped and murdered leads him to believe Lyanna was raped and murdered, leading him to hate Targaryans. That about right?

No, Robert hears Lyanna was taken, and he must believe that she went unwillingly, because to believe otherwise would mean she didn't love him (which would break his heart). This fuels his hatred of Targaryens. He is then practically forced into rebelling in order to save his head. Since Lyanna's "kidnapping" is the precipitating cause of the rebellion, as well as Robert's main emotional motivation for fighting, he must continue to believe that she was indeed kidnapped, because to believe otherwise would not only break his heart but also suggest that some of his actions during the war were wrong. Later, he finds out that Lyanna died, making his victory turn to ash. Now, for him to find out years after that everything he fought for was based on a lie, well, that would just destroy him. So, even if Ned decided to confront him about this fact, Robert would most likely refuse to believe it.

And nothing about what Rhaegar did with Lyanna changes what Robert was doing in that war. Aerys burned Brandon, Rickard and various nothern bannermen alive. He then ordered Jon Arryn to deliver Robert and Ned's heads to him. Jon Arryn rose the banner of rebellion against him, Ned and Robert called their banners and led the war against Aerys. Rhaegar eventually appeared and led the loyalist army on Aerys' behalf, Robert killed him on the battlefield.

You don't think getting Lyanna back was one of the rationales for the war? Even you admit that Robert dreams about killing Rhaegar every night. Not Aerys. Rhaegar. It's Rhaegar who Robert hates the most. So I think it's safe to assume that getting Lyanna back was one of his major motivations for fighting the war, in addition to deposing Aerys.

Now, Brandon may have gotten himself killed for nothing, Ned may have killed those Kingsguards for nothing (in fact I don't even know why they stopped him), I don't see where Robert was ever wrong in his part in the war. He may lose his drive, but again the war was over.

I said that Robert would have to believe that his actions were "in part" wrong, not that he was completely wrong. Deposing Aerys was clearly right, even Rhaegar planned on doing that. But killing Rhaegar, the almost universally-beloved and -adored Crown Prince? In order to do that, and to accept that that was right, he would need to believe that Rhaegar was somehow evil. Believing he raped Lyanna is part of that narrative.

And seriously, he'd have difficulty accepting it. It would strain their friendship forever. I'm not saying it would be easy. It may take Ned his entire life to get Robert to accept it. How is that better then just leaving rampant Targaryan hating insane with grief King in charge of the realm and fleeing back to the North.

How does Ned know that he would come to accept it? For all he knows, telling Robert would either destroy him and/or drive a permanent wedge between them. Plus, it might make Robert question why Ned even cares enough about Rhaegar to correct him, which may in turn cause a chain of thoughts that leads to R+L=J. So letting Robert's comments about Rhaegar slide is a prudent reaction on Ned's part.

As opposed to WHAT? Robert tells Ned that he dreams of killing Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna every single night. Yeah, he may not be all that happy for it. But he'd stop believing Lyanna was raped over and over again. How is that not important?

It would be nice if Robert could come to terms with the idea that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's in his character, or that Ned would think it's in his character.

What Robert would eventually come to, is not important. He has a right to know.

Doesn't Jon have a right to know who his mother is? How do you explain why Ned is holding that info back from him?

Whether Robert has a right to know or not is not the point, the point is whether or not Ned thinks it would be prudent to tell him. And I'm sorry, but you haven't done a good job explaining why, under R+L=J, it would be prudent for Ned to tell him these things.

And if the knowledge that his beloved was happy is not important to him and all that was important to him was that he himself didn't have her, then that's not love is it?

It's certainly very human. Many people who love or claim to love someone get very possessive about the person they love. There's nothing unusual here.

And Ned assured Lyanna that Robert truly loved her, in his own way.

And Lyanna believed that Robert would never keep to one bed, contradicting your assertion that he truly loved her. Pick a better example next time.

In which case again, Robert would not a complex tragic character. He's just a selfish, wants to hate for the sake of hating childmurderer in addition to all his other flaws.

YMMV, but I think this makes his story even more tragic, because everything he fought for was based on a lie. And he doesn't want to hate for the sake of hating, that's just a gross mischaracterization of what I was saying; he needs to hate the Targaryens in order to keep himself together. He's already a broken man after Lyanna died, accepting that she went willingly with Rhaegar would break him even further.

BTW, I added this point to my last post in an edit, but I'm not sure you saw it so I'm reposting it here:

It is completely false that "at no point are we led to believe that Robert would think Ned would outright lie to him about anything." In AGoT, when Ned wakes up after Jaime's ambush, Robert refuses to take his side on things, explaining that it's his word against the Lannisters'. So that's specific textual support that Robert can refuse to believe something Ned says.

[LadyMary]

He's not a saint. He already had an appetite for woman, food and drink before becoming king and Ned was shocked what the years had done to him physically and emotionally. Ned can at times only hope he'd be the man he once knew when the time came that he needs to count on him.

The man he once was, Ned always considered capable of killing 1 year olds in a heartbeat. That does ruin the point of Roberts character I should think. And if not that. You can also define him by his love for Lyanna and his hate for Rhaegar.

Well, then I guess Robert was ruined from the get-go. What is the point of Robert's character? He's a flawed man, capable of being a good friend and vengeful enemy. He was capable of loving a woman to the point of obsession, having consensual sex with countless women, and beating and raping his own wife. He's good at making babies but not a good father to any of them. He's a brave soldier and general in battle but a mediocre king in peacetime. He's vengeful and not always just. He's prideful. He's blind to certain facts, such as Lyanna's willful nature. He doesn't see that his children with Cersei don't resemble any of his bastards...but then, except for Maya Stone and Edric Storm, he hasn't acknowledged any of his bastards and has little or nothing to do with them as far as we know. Robert is by no means the worst person in the books but he's far from a paragon. Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna was a serious blow to Robert's pride and Lyanna has become a symbol more than a real woman that he loved. That doesn't make him a less interesting character, it just means he's not always a good person.

But then you guys also think that Ned fully knows that Lyanna was merely in love with Rhaegar, and Ned thought Robert would in fact be better off thinking Lyanna was kidnapped, raped repeatedly and eventually murdered, then happy with a man that is not Robert. And at no point in the 14 years that Robert suffered under said delusion (and if the tomb scene is any indication, the matter was quite vividly still on his mind) did Ned think otherwise.

Whether Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar willingly or was kidnapped against her will, it's still scandalous and an outrage that a married man who was widely respected would do that to a maiden who was betrothed to another man. That's two vows broken by him under whatever circumstance. It was a dishonorable thing for an honorable man (Rhaegar) to have done, even if Lyanna was willing. The fact that Ned is letting Robert trash Rhaegar's reputation with respect to Lyanna isn't such a big deal to me, even if Ned knew or learned later that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and fled with him willingly. It was the catalyst for the war, for what Brandon did, what Arys did and not just because of what Robert and Ned did. So, Ned not defending the man who started the whole thing doesn't really surprise me... especially if Robert is not rational about Rhaegar or Lyanna and won't allow himself to believe otherwise.

This is especially so if Ned is trying to shield Jon from Robert's irrational hatred of Tararyen "dragonspawn".

So Ned basically has a lower opinion of his best friend then Cersei and the man he once knew would be just as on board with killing some Targaryans as the man he was dealing with.

I'm sorry but that knowledge would spoil a lot of emotional moments in Game of Thrones for me. If not Ned's whole plot line.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm fascinated by how complex all of these characters are and even honorable people can do things that some would consider dishonorable even for a good reason.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

Ned may have killed those Kingsguards for nothing (in fact I don't even know why they stopped him),

This is why many people think Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is their legitimate son and true heir to the throne. I've yet to see any other satisfactory explanation for why 3 Kingsguard were hanging out at the Tower of Joy protecting Lyanna and presumably Jon. If Lyanna is a mistress and Jon a bastard then those 3 men should have been going to protect Viserys and Daenarys. They have no reason to be there unless Jon is the heir.

And if the knowledge that his beloved was happy is not important to him and all that was important to him was that he himself didn't have her, then that's not love is it?

I think that you and I could agree that would prove Robert didn't really love Lyanna, but I doubt that Robert would come to the same conclusion.

Robert is not rational about the subjects of Lyanna or Targaryens and he has built up his own version of events. One can argue that Robert has a right to be told the truth; however, the potential cost of telling Robert has to be weighed. This isn't modern day where if I tell a friend a hard truth the worst thing that can happen is the friend refuses to talk to me anymore. Robert literally has the power to destroy the Starks and anyone that comes to their defence. Would he? I don't know, but it seems to me that Ned thought the potential benefits of telling Robert were not outweighed by the harm it could cause.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

double post

[LadyMary]

This is why many people think Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is their legitimate son and true heir to the throne. I've yet to see any other satisfactory explanation for why 3 Kingsguard were hanging out at the Tower of Joy protecting Lyanna and presumably Jon. If Lyanna is a mistress and Jon a bastard then those 3 men should have been going to protect Viserys and Daenarys. They have no reason to be there unless Jon is the heir.

I think that you and I could agree that would prove Robert didn't really love Lyanna, but I doubt that Robert would come to the same conclusion.

Robert is not rational about the subjects of Lyanna or Targaryens and he has built up his own version of events. One can argue that Robert has a right to be told the truth; however, the potential cost of telling Robert has to be weighed. This isn't modern day where if I tell a friend a hard truth the worst thing that can happen is the friend refuses to talk to me anymore. Robert literally has the power to destroy the Starks and anyone that comes to their defence. Would he? I don't know, but it seems to me that Ned thought the potential benefits of telling Robert were not outweighed by the harm it could cause.

Ned thinks to himself about how Robert could profess his undying love for a girl one day and forget her the next day...or something like that, whereas he (Ned) kept his promise and it came with a heavy price. Ned told Lyanna that he believed Robert would be different after getting married to her because he loved her, but she knew Robert wouldn't be able to change his nature.

I really think what maddens Robert the most is that deep down he knows he was jilted but he can't admit it to himself. He worshipped and idealized Lyanna and believed her to be the victim of Rhaegar's crime because the alternative would cause him to have to admit Lyanna didn't love him and threw away her future as his wife to become Rhaegar's mistress. He didn't want to blame Lyanna for breaking her vow, so he had to believe Rhaegar stole her. It's as much about his masculine pride as it is about his love for Lyanna.

I don't think Robert would want to be told the truth about it either. Fourteen years later Robert still hates Rhaegar so much that dreams about killing him. As it is, Ned tries to hint that maybe Robert's view of the past is somewhat unrealistic, at least in regard to Lyanna and Robert completely blows him off.