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The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

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So which characters know about R+L=J? It would stand to reason that Howland Reed does, but do other members of the Kingsguard, most notably their lord commander, know why 3 of his men were protecting the Tower of Joy? Who else would?

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So which characters know about R+L=J? It would stand to reason that Howland Reed does, but do other members of the Kingsguard, most notably their lord commander, know why 3 of his men were protecting the Tower of Joy? Who else would?

their Lord Commander was killed at the Tower of Joy. If Jaime did not know, then there is no reason to expect that Selmy would have known. The truth, if it comes from a living character, could only come from Reed.

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Not sure if this has been metioned before in this thread but Ned (Lord Beric's squire - let's call him squire Ned for clarity's sake) tells Arya at the beginning of the second book of Storm of Swords that he is Jon's milk brother and that Wylla was his wet nurse. He states that Wylla is Jon's mother. He also states that Ned (Arya's father - lets just call him Ned!) fell in love with Lady Ashara before being bethrothed to Catelyn. A few points on this:

1 - Firstly I think squire Ned believes he is telling the truth despite Anguy saying all Dornishmen are liars.

2 - However I do NOT think what little Ned says is true - I believe in the R+L=J theory therefore I do NOT think Wylla is Jon's mother although I do believe Ned fell in love with Lady Ashara and it ended tragically for Ashara.

3 - But I do think Wylla was Jon's wet nurse.

How does this fit in with R+L=J? Did Ned pass Jon to Wylla after Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy? Was Wylla simply Jon's wet nurse until Ned could get back to Winterfell?

Apologies if this has been clarified before - this subject has numerous threads!

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Propably everything was clarified at some point; however this entire forum now lives on repeating what was said earlier :)

Wylla was apparently a servant of House Dayne - this explains how she could nurse Edric. To me it looked like this:

Ned found himself with a child at ToJ. Said child neaded someone to feed him, so he went to the only people he could trust in the vincinity - Ashara, and her unnamed brother, lord of Starfall; he also neaded to explain few things. He knew them since the Tourney at Harrenhal; I also thought that some time passen beetwen it and war of the usurper; Ned could have deepened his association with Daynes at that time. I do not know if he told them about Jon parentage, but it seems quite likely - after all he didn't want them to start wondering how he turned up with a child near Dorne when they were not binded by an oath to keep the secret. Daynes helped him, providing Wylla to nurse Jon and serve as his "mother" in case anyone asks. When Jon was old enough, she returned to Starfall to further serve house Dayne, and thus she was wet nurse to Ned Dayne. This explaines also when Ned left such a strong impression on Dayne patriarch that he named his firstborn after Eddard.

And I do not think that Darkstar knows anything :)

EDIT the problem is how young Jon survived journey to Starfall. Do we know where ToJ was located?

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It's a good question, RB. If you assume R+L=J, then Wylla has to be the number one candidate for Ned's "they" who along with Howland Reed found him holding onto Lyanna's body. After all, assuming Jon was at the Tower of Joy, a wet-nurse is needed to feed Jon on the journey to Starfall. I highly doubt, however, that it's Wylla who Cat finds with Jon when she arrives in Winterfell. She seems likely to have stayed in Starfall and given the job of providing a cover story for anyone asking around for Jon's mother.

Edit: Alcatur, all we know for sure is that the Tower has the Red mountains of Dorne in the background. Which could mean it is located on either side of the border between Dorne and the Reach, but Cersei's remarks to Ned about a Dornish peasant might indicte the Dornish side. Still, a very long border.

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Ned thinks to himself about how Robert could profess his undying love for a girl one day and forget her the next day...or something like that, whereas he (Ned) kept his promise and it came with a heavy price. Ned told Lyanna that he believed Robert would be different after getting married to her because he loved her, but she knew Robert wouldn't be able to change his nature.

I really think what maddens Robert the most is that deep down he knows he was jilted but he can't admit it to himself. He worshipped and idealized Lyanna and believed her to be the victim of Rhaegar's crime because the alternative would cause him to have to admit Lyanna dis role in the dn't love him and threw away her future as his wife to become Rhaegar's mistress. He didn't want to blame Lyanna for breaking her vow, so he had to believe Rhaegar stole her. It's as much about his masculine pride as it is about his love for Lyanna.

I don't think Robert would want to be told the truth about it either. Fourteen years later Robert still hates Rhaegar so much that dreams about killing him. As it is, Ned tries to hint that maybe Robert's view of the past is somewhat unrealistic, at least in regard to Lyanna and Robert completely blows him off.

WE also do not quite know enough about Rhaegar to deduce his role in tghe relationship, except for him being more sensitive and far less sexually promiscuous than Robert.

BUT: we asked ourselves all these questions about Rhaegar and Lyanne "inability to communicate" to their families about the affair in order to diffuse the situation. Not sure about Lyanne, but that what I think about Rhaegar:

The whole Targaryen clan presentation in the books appears to be heavily influenced by Elric of Melnibone of Michael Moorcock's books. He is in fact one of my favorite heroes, although he, due to his old melnibonean "bright empire" heritage is prone to be extremely selfish to a point of self-destruction, does always whatever he feels like it due to divine right of dragonemperor, and commits many deeds unthinkable for a typical "great epic hero" with traditional sense of honour (such as , let's say, Aragorn or Conan). BTW, he also represented culture of marrying / co-habitating with you own close relatives (Sylmoril), riding dragons, conquering the world, and being superior to other mortals. Perhaps Rhaegar was not quite as extreme, but he might very well thought that taking off with a young noblewoman from a prominent family is his right (as long as she goes along with that) and it is noone else's business. What we know of other members of Trag clan (Vyseris and Aegon) makes me belive that they were all quite a bit "crazy" and selfishly arrogant beyond belief.

That's why (as a sidenote) it was rather interesting to see Elric's transformations in later books when he travelled through Young Kingdoms which somewhat adjusted his attitide. In GRRM's books my favorite character is probably Dany as she actually "travelled through young Kingdoms" first and basically is a good person without extreme traits of her other relatives who were born into power from birth.

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Ned thinks to himself about how Robert could profess his undying love for a girl one day and forget her the next day...or something like that, whereas he (Ned) kept his promise and it came with a heavy price. Ned told Lyanna that he believed Robert would be different after getting married to her because he loved her, but she knew Robert wouldn't be able to change his nature.

I really think what maddens Robert the most is that deep down he knows he was jilted but he can't admit it to himself. He worshipped and idealized Lyanna and believed her to be the victim of Rhaegar's crime because the alternative would cause him to have to admit Lyanna dis role in the dn't love him and threw away her future as his wife to become Rhaegar's mistress. He didn't want to blame Lyanna for breaking her vow, so he had to believe Rhaegar stole her. It's as much about his masculine pride as it is about his love for Lyanna.

I don't think Robert would want to be told the truth about it either. Fourteen years later Robert still hates Rhaegar so much that dreams about killing him. As it is, Ned tries to hint that maybe Robert's view of the past is somewhat unrealistic, at least in regard to Lyanna and Robert completely blows him off.

WE also do not quite know enough about Rhaegar to deduce his role in tghe relationship, except for him being more sensitive and far less sexually promiscuous than Robert.

BUT: we asked ourselves all these questions about Rhaegar and Lyanne "inability to communicate" to their families about the affair in order to diffuse the situation. Not sure about Lyanne, but that what I think about Rhaegar:

The whole Targaryen clan presentation in the books appears to be heavily influenced by Elric of Melnibone of Michael Moorcock's books. He is in fact one of my favorite heroes, although he, due to his old melnibonean "bright empire" heritage is prone to be extremely selfish to a point of self-destruction, does always whatever he feels like it due to divine right of dragonemperor, and commits many deeds unthinkable for a typical "great epic hero" with traditional sense of honour (such as , let's say, Aragorn or Conan). BTW, he also represented culture of marrying / co-habitating with you own close relatives (Sylmoril), riding dragons, conquering the world, and being superior to other mortals. Perhaps Rhaegar was not quite as extreme, but he might very well thought that taking off with a young noblewoman from a prominent family is his right (as long as she goes along with that) and it is noone else's business. What we know of other members of Trag clan (Vyseris and Aegon) makes me belive that they were all quite a bit "crazy" and selfishly arrogant beyond belief.

That's why (as a sidenote) it was rather interesting to see Elric's transformations in later books when he travelled through Young Kingdoms which somewhat adjusted his attitide. In GRRM's books my favorite character is probably Dany as she actually "travelled through young Kingdoms" first and basically is a good person without extreme traits of her other relatives who were born into power from birth.

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Edit: Alcatur, all we know for sure is that the Tower has the Red mountains of Dorne in the background. Which could mean it is located on either side of the border between Dorne and the Reach, but Cersei's remarks to Ned about a Dornish peasant might indicte the Dornish side. Still, a very long border.

I checked on Westeros political map - it looks like both sides of Red Mountains lie within Dorne borders; the northern one is within Dornish Marches.

But since the mountains were in the bacground, and the tower itself did not lie within mountains, I guess it was somewhere within Prince's Pass, thus rather far from Starfall. So for Jon to survive, Wylla had to either come to the tower with Ned, or be already present there. Arthur, whose lands were closer than either the Oldtown or Harrenhal, and who propably had the most trustworthy family, could send to Starfall for a wet nun when Lyannas pregnancy became obvious. Ned simply met her at the ToJ and then went to Starfall; later Wylla stayed there.

Or maybe desperate Ned quickly found someone who could help living nearby - thus Dornish peasant, and the transfer to Starfall was part of price for being quiet? Risky, but this way she also stays with people who will ensure her silence and cooperation. And i think that Lyannas death was partially due to miscarriage (Jon survied since it could be later than 8th month) caused by brutal fight and news of death of almost everyone she knew, and could not be predicted by kingsguard, who could have hoped that she will take care of child - this would explain timing and force Ned to find someone nearby.

Who knew about Jon parentage if R+L=J is true? I would propose the following list:

-Ned

-Howland

-Wylla

-Previous Lord of Starfall, Edrics father

-Ashara

Ideas of anyone else?

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I checked on Westeros political map - it looks like both sides of Red Mountains lie within Dorne borders; the northern one is within Dornish Marches.

But since the mountains were in the bacground, and the tower itself did not lie within mountains, I guess it was somewhere within Prince's Pass, thus rather far from Starfall. So for Jon to survive, Wylla had to either come to the tower with Ned, or be already present there. Arthur, whose lands were closer than either the Oldtown or Harrenhal, and who propably had the most trustworthy family, could send to Starfall for a wet nun when Lyannas pregnancy became obvious. Ned simply met her at the ToJ and then went to Starfall; later Wylla stayed there.

Or maybe desperate Ned quickly found someone who could help living nearby - thus Dornish peasant, and the transfer to Starfall was part of price for being quiet? Risky, but this way she also stays with people who will ensure her silence and cooperation. And i think that Lyannas death was partially due to miscarriage (Jon survied since it could be later than 8th month) caused by brutal fight and news of death of almost everyone she knew, and could not be predicted by kingsguard, who could have hoped that she will take care of child - this would explain timing and force Ned to find someone nearby.

Who knew about Jon parentage if R+L=J is true? I would propose the following list:

-Ned

-Howland

-Wylla

-Previous Lord of Starfall, Edrics father

-Ashara

Ideas of anyone else?

Varys. IF his "birds" were present.

And yes, she died in childbirth, in these books it is a shockingly common death (Lannister-mom, Targaryen - mom, etc).

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I am new to this thread but one obvious problem with the R+L theory is that Jon has the blackest hair in the Stark family. One would figure if he was half Targarian he might not be blond.... but why would his hair be as dark as King Robert's?

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I am new to this thread but one obvious problem with the R+L theory is that Jon has the blackest hair in the Stark family. One would figure if he was half Targarian he might not be blond.... but why would his hair be as dark as King Robert's?

because he has Lyanna's blood, the blood of the wolf. Hair colors do not mix in humans, they take on the traits of one parent or the other.

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because he has Lyanna's blood, the blood of the wolf. Hair colors do not mix in humans, they take on the traits of one parent or the other.

Ned discovers the secret of Jon Arryn's last words partly by realizing that Roberts family always has dark hair. Joffrey could have got his blond hair from Cersei and still be Robert's son if your point were valid (in the book).

Still, Jon has darker hair than any of the other Starks so it makes no sense that Jon would get darker hair than the Starks from a Targaryan.

Ned tells Jon that he has his blood so either Ned had a mistress or Lyanna is the mother. Maybe Raegar raped Lyanna but maybe Jon is still Roberts son. I am not buying the R+L=J theory.

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Ned discovers the secret of Jon Arryn's last words partly by realizing that Roberts family always has dark hair. Joffrey could have got his blond hair from Cersei and still be Robert's son if your point were valid (in the book).

This is overly simplifying things, but in the real world, hair color sort of works like this. Blonde hair is a recessive gene, denoted with a lowercase 'b', and Black hair is a dominant gene, denoted by a capital 'B'. A person with blonde hair has a genotype 'bb', but a person with black hair can have 'BB' or 'Bb'. That means, if you have one black hair trait, you must have black hair. So, while it is possible for a father with black hair that has 'Bb' to have a blonde child, all of Robert's children have black hair, so it must be assumed that he has the 'BB' genotype, a modern way of saying his seed is strong. Therefore, any child he had with Cersei must be the 'Bb' genotype, and have black hair.

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yeah I never bought into the R+L=J theory. There is just no way it would be kept secret. It's been a while since I read the books but I never thought even for a second R+L=J for even a second.

Personally I think it's pretty much just like the books and series would indicate. Jon is the son of Ned and Wylla.

Ned+Ashara=Jon is more plausible than R+L=J.

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yeah I never bought into the R+L=J theory. There is just no way it would be kept secret. It's been a while since I read the books but I never thought even for a second R+L=J for even a second.

Personally I think it's pretty much just like the books and series would indicate. Jon is the son of Ned and Wylla.

Ned+Ashara=Jon is more plausible than R+L=J.

If it would be Ned+Ashara in the end, I could live with it, if it's believable explained.

But, if he makes it really, Ned+Wylla, and the only mysterious thing on the whole story was that Ned wasn't that a ''good'' guy who just couldn't withstand the charme of Wylla I'm really pissed. Because it's just a really really big screw you if you make it a mystery at first just to explain it about 20-25 years later.

Of course, I don't believe that, but if Jons parents really are just that, what we have known since AGOT. It would really make me angry. Then why the mystery? Why the build up? Red herring? Just too much effort in this scheme...

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I am new to this thread but one obvious problem with the R+L theory is that Jon has the blackest hair in the Stark family. One would figure if he was half Targarian he might not be blond.... but why would his hair be as dark as King Robert's?

He doesn't have the blackest hair in the Stark family. He does have the blackest hair among Stark children with a notable exception of Arya. Starks have pale look, grey eyes and dark brown hair, not black. (Jon in the books doesn't have black hair like in TV series but dark brown). Ned had it, Lyanna had it. Arya also has very dark hair and is described as looking like Lyanna. Jon is described looking like Ned with his dark hair. The rest of Stark children - Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have auborn hair which is their mother's hair color who is not Stark but Tully. Jon looks exactly like a Stark - like Lyanna and Ned did. The hair color does not disprove anything with Starks.

Here how it goes in the books:

With Starks – 4 kids look like mother (Tully), 1 kid (Arya) looks like father (Stark)

With Rhaegar’s & Ella’s kids – girl looks like mother (Dornish – tan skin, black hair & eyes), boy like father (Targ -silver/gold hair, purple eyes).

With Robert & Cersei – all 3 kids look like Lannisters blond. Robert's kids with 16 different hair color women = all black hair (Bartheolons). Barthaelon’s 300years+ of geneology history including crossing with blond Lannisters before both as Mother and as Father = Jet Black hair.

We can’t say anything on Jon other than he looks like a Stark – either Ned or Lyanna is his parent and he doesn’t have any full blood siblings to disprove or prove either theory.

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For you naysayers... how do you explain then Ned's anguish over the promises he made to Lyanna? And more relevantly, how do you explain the presence of THREE of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy?

As for people who are still alive who might know the real secret

Wylla, if she's still alive, she may or may not be.

Howland Reed

Why would the Reed children be so shocked that Bran doesn't know the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

It may be true that Jon is simply Ned's son. But it doesn't explain all the other clues, some of them anvil-sized, that point to an alternative theory. There's just too many.

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Varys. IF his "birds" were present.

And yes, she died in childbirth, in these books it is a shockingly common death (Lannister-mom, Targaryen - mom, etc).

I assume that one of the reasons Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna to Kings Landing or Dragonstone (or any of his other well-known places, like the ruins of Summerhall) was because he didn't want Varys to know his secret. When the King wanted to find Rhaegar at one point, no one knew where he had gone, so he managed to keep that secret well enough.

Before modern antiseptic practices, something like a third of all women died in childbed, either due to complications from the birth or due to post-partum infection.

We won't know for sure until the author tells us, but assuming that Lyanna was in a well-guarded tower and had an unknown level of medical care, rather than a castle with the best possible medical care, she may have had complications from the birth and she did have a fever when Ned got to her. I assume that someone thought to bring in a wetnurse when Lyanna fell ill. Maybe Wylla was brought with Jon from wherever the Tower of Joy was to Starfall, where she stayed after Ned made the journey North.

Does anyone know for certain how long Ned remained in Starfall after the battle at the Tower of Joy?

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Regarding Jon's hair color, please check out the hair and eye color for Prince Baelor Breakapear, from the Dunk and Egg novellas, as well as the hair and eye coloring of Rhaegar's little girl, Rhaenys. A quick search in the Citadel's archives will get you Martin's discription of Rhaenys - and she would be Jon's half-sister under this theory. The point being not all Targaryens have the silver-blonde hair and violet eyes. It just really isn't an issue. It's meaningless when trying sort out the validity of R+L=J.

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yeah I never bought into the R+L=J theory. There is just no way it would be kept secret.

Why wouldn't it be kept secret? Lyanna was kept in an isolated place that barely anyone knew the location of. Seriously, not even Varys knew where it was. Once you combine that with the fact that perhaps only three people know the secret (Ned, Howland Reed, and some other unnamed person(s)), it's seems quite plausible that the secret could be kept.

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