The R+L=J thread, part XI

[corbon]

Sheesh. I'm not the type to post without looking for the answer, but this thread is just too massive.

In AGOT Robert and Eddard talk about the lass who whelped your bastard and he names her as Wilah. They also mention I think mention a higher royal woman when someone is discussing Jon at a camp, perhaps it was on the Fist a Storm of Swords.

Any greater book scholars able to answer. What leads us to believe this, while plausible take on things, when Eddard was so adamant about never lying. Did he make up Wilah?

Robert asks the question "What was her name?" about some girl, and adds the assumption that she was Ned's Bastard's mother.

Ned answers the exact question asked, and ignores the rest, allowing Robert to continue believing Wylla to be Jon's mother.

This is absolutely classic "lying without lying" technique.

It does not constitute proof that Wylla is not Jon's mother, but it means that the conversation is not even positive evidence (from Ned) that Wylla might be Jon's mother. All we have from this conversation is Robert's belief - and Robert lives his entire life in a deluded fantasy.

[corbon]

I disagree. Sure a woman could keep lactating for a length of time but Wylla was publicly seen so it would be impossible for her to just have an extra baby in her arms one day and go "Oh yeah, I just popped this baby out before lunch." Especially if Ned was believed to be the father. Wylla would have had to have been pregnant and given birth around the time Jon was born, regardless of what theory you believe.

:huh:

No, she wasn't publicly seen.

No it is not necessary for her to have been pregnant and given birth around the same time as Jon Snow is born, though there is no nothing preventing her from being and doing so.

There is very little information at all on Wylla - we don't even know what she looks like.

I don't think we actually know anything about her before she appears as Jon's wetnurse/mother, and even that is more by inference.

After the war she remained in, or took, service with House Dayne.

She was at some stage wetnurse (or mother) to Jon Snow.

Later she was wetnurse to Edric Dayne.

That is pretty much all we know.

As a servant she is pretty much invisible, generally.

She could easily have been a companion to Ashara Dayne, and from there to Lyanna. Or she could have been a local Dayne servant sent to the Tower of Joy at the request of Arthur Dayne when Lyanna was close to giving birth - selected specifically as a wetnurse in other words.

Could have, we don't know.

Jeyne Poole is sufficiently invisible to be later passed off as Arya Stark, despite little or no resemblance.

[LadyMary]

Thanks for those links. I had read the Citadel one but hadn't seen the Tower of the Hand essay. The TotH essay is the most convincing. Most of the evidence for the R+L=J I dismissed as being up for interpretation. One quote from the book that's been making me think is,

[italic]He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.[/italic]

Makes ya think for sure. There is still a lot of evidence refuting the theory and evidence for E+W=J.

Sure, there's some evidence... Ned lets Robert think it for one thing. Edric Dayne believed it as well, but Edric also heard about Eddard and Ashara. The bigger question is, if it was Wylla, why not tell Jon? There's no major repercussions for admitting he impregnated a household servant. It's not like he's sparing Jon the knowledge that his mother was a common whore, or protecting the reputation of a high born woman.

I disagree. Sure a woman could keep lactating for a length of time but Wylla was publicly seen so it would be impossible for her to just have an extra baby in her arms one day and go "Oh yeah, I just popped this baby out before lunch." Especially if Ned was believed to be the father. Wylla would have had to have been pregnant and given birth around the time Jon was born, regardless of what theory you believe.

Not true. Wylla could have had a baby a year or two before nursing Jon, weaned her own and started nursing Jon. The fact that there's no mention was made of another child doesn't mean there wasn't one. It just isn't that important a detail. How many nobles would have made a point of speaking about a servant's child unless that child was noteworthy in some way? And again, maybe the child died.

Plus when they find the wolf pups at the beginning. Robb and Jon ride ahead and make the discovery. Ned says something along the lines of "I wonder what trouble my sons have stirred up now." Since Bran hadn't ridden ahead he could only be referring to Jon and Robb. Also the pups themselves. 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon the bastard of Ned, seems to fit better than 5 pups and a runt-pup for Jon who is actually some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world.

Ned has publicly claimed Jon as a son. In his inner thoughts it's a different story, however.

The dead she-wolf represents House Stark not just Eddard Stark. That she was destroyed by a Stag (Baratheon) and in turn destroyed the stag is symbolic of what's to come, I think. It's Jon who points out that there are five pups and five trueborn children of Eddard, and the direwolf is a sigil. The sixth pup is white as snow, mute and found apart from the others. All the direwolf pups represent Stark children, but one is different. It could be different because Jon's a bastard - which most will assume, or because he's a cousin but he's still as much a Stark as Eddard's children with Catelyn.

I don't think Jon will necessarily be "some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world", but he'll have a role to play along with others... Daenerys, maybe Tyrion and Bran. For one thing, Jon doesn't seem especially powerful, but he may be important later if his father was Rhaegar and he's connected to Daenerys by blood. Plus, he's commander at the Wall which is the first line of defense against the Others and their wights. Even if the only thing that comes from Jon founding out he's a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, is that he knows he has an aunt on his father's side who may be on the Iron throne and an ally against the Others, it doesn't mean his situation will change at all, assuming he keeps his oath (and the oath is no longer necessary) or doesn't die fighting the Others. It might just give him peace of mind to know the truth.

I hope it is E+W=J rather than L+R=J. I don't want GRRM to do a u-turn into cliche fantasy where a child born of two powerful opposing forces grows up to save the world. It's just as cliche as two best friends or two brothers grow up to be the most powerful warrior and wizard in the world.

Just started a new re-read to get ready for A Dance With Dragons. I'll be paying special attention to this question hehe.

This is one of those "your milage may vary" things. I think what it comes down to is that some people dislike this theory because they think it's "cliche". I don't agree but I guess people are looking for GRRM to break new ground somehow. But I have to ask what wouldn't be cliche?

Jon's mother is just some Dornish house servant? Wouldn't that be kind of anti-climactic with all the secrecey about Jon's parentage? Jon's mother was a noblewoman who threw herself off a tower after being spurned by the man she loved (who also killed her brother)? I suppose this has dramatic possibilities and might explain Ned not wanting to talk about it (painful memories, wanting to protect Ashara's reputation, not wanting Jon to think his mother didn't love him enough to live for him, etc). That's pretty cliche too, isn't it? And as the essays lay it out, Ned was apparently in the Vale during the start of the war, and so far there's nothing in the books to suggest Ashara was with him. You'd think that if Ned and Robert were together in the Vale at the start of the war along with Ashara, the King would have asked him if she was Jon's mother. The less obvious but most sensible based on circumstantial evidence in the books, is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together for most of the war, Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant and she gave birth to Jon, was found by Ned "in her bed of blood" dying of post-partum infection.

[JayDubya]

Moving this over to another thread

[Raventhal]

Sure, there's some evidence... Ned lets Robert think it for one thing. Edric Dayne believed it as well, but Edric also heard about Eddard and Ashara. The bigger question is, if it was Wylla, why not tell Jon? There's no major repercussions for admitting he impregnated a household servant. It's not like he's sparing Jon the knowledge that his mother was a common whore, or protecting the reputation of a high born woman.

Not true. Wylla could have had a baby a year or two before nursing Jon, weaned her own and started nursing Jon. The fact that there's no mention was made of another child doesn't mean there wasn't one. It just isn't that important a detail. How many nobles would have made a point of speaking about a servant's child unless that child was noteworthy in some way? And again, maybe the child died.

Ned has publicly claimed Jon as a son. In his inner thoughts it's a different story, however.

The dead she-wolf represents House Stark not just Eddard Stark. That she was destroyed by a Stag (Baratheon) and in turn destroyed the stag is symbolic of what's to come, I think. It's Jon who points out that there are five pups and five trueborn children of Eddard, and the direwolf is a sigil. The sixth pup is white as snow, mute and found apart from the others. All the direwolf pups represent Stark children, but one is different. It could be different because Jon's a bastard - which most will assume, or because he's a cousin but he's still as much a Stark as Eddard's children with Catelyn.

I don't think Jon will necessarily be "some super powerful guy reborn who will save the world", but he'll have a role to play along with others... Daenerys, maybe Tyrion and Bran. For one thing, Jon doesn't seem especially powerful, but he may be important later if his father was Rhaegar and he's connected to Daenerys by blood. Plus, he's commander at the Wall which is the first line of defense against the Others and their wights. Even if the only thing that comes from Jon founding out he's a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, is that he knows he has an aunt on his father's side who may be on the Iron throne and an ally against the Others, it doesn't mean his situation will change at all, assuming he keeps his oath (and the oath is no longer necessary) or doesn't die fighting the Others. It might just give him peace of mind to know the truth.

This is one of those "your milage may vary" things. I think what it comes down to is that some people dislike this theory because they think it's "cliche". I don't agree but I guess people are looking for GRRM to break new ground somehow. But I have to ask what wouldn't be cliche?

Jon's mother is just some Dornish house servant? Wouldn't that be kind of anti-climactic with all the secrecey about Jon's parentage? Jon's mother was a noblewoman who threw herself off a tower after being spurned by the man she loved (who also killed her brother)? I suppose this has dramatic possibilities and might explain Ned not wanting to talk about it (painful memories, wanting to protect Ashara's reputation, not wanting Jon to think his mother didn't love him enough to live for him, etc). That's pretty cliche too, isn't it? And as the essays lay it out, Ned was apparently in the Vale during the start of the war, and so far there's nothing in the books to suggest Ashara was with him. You'd think that if Ned and Robert were together in the Vale at the start of the war along with Ashara, the King would have asked him if she was Jon's mother. The less obvious but most sensible based on circumstantial evidence in the books, is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together for most of the war, Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant and she gave birth to Jon, was found by Ned "in her bed of blood" dying of post-partum infection.

We were all wrong. I+L=J

I? I is Inigo Montoya and then look at Jon Snow the TV series reveals it all! It even explains why he would make Arya Needle!

The reason I have a hard time believing that Ned would keep the nature of his dishonor secret. He's pretty unNed about it. To me it's an obvious game of thrones type event that even Ned can recognize. R+L=J is the only combination of characters that would require secrecy due to the nature of plots for and against him that would exist. Targ/Stark with possible support of the north and other loyalist is certainly a threat to the throne bastard or not. Might makes right.

[Popgun]

:huh:

No, she wasn't publicly seen.

No it is not necessary for her to have been pregnant and given birth around the same time as Jon Snow is born, though there is no nothing preventing her from being and doing so.

There is very little information at all on Wylla - we don't even know what she looks like.

I don't think we actually know anything about her before she appears as Jon's wetnurse/mother, and even that is more by inference.

After the war she remained in, or took, service with House Dayne.

She was at some stage wetnurse (or mother) to Jon Snow.

Later she was wetnurse to Edric Dayne.

That is pretty much all we know.

As a servant she is pretty much invisible, generally.

She could easily have been a companion to Ashara Dayne, and from there to Lyanna. Or she could have been a local Dayne servant sent to the Tower of Joy at the request of Arthur Dayne when Lyanna was close to giving birth - selected specifically as a wetnurse in other words.

Could have, we don't know.

Jeyne Poole is sufficiently invisible to be later passed off as Arya Stark, despite little or no resemblance.

[Popgun]

my post got editted so fine have this

[Popgun]

blah, I'm enough of a fan to try again. Kind of annoyed an hour's work got skewered but whatever. Like was it my fault all that stuff got deleted or what? Whatever, I'll ass it's m fault and start again.

Sure, there's some evidence... Ned lets Robert think it for one thing. Edric Dayne believed it as well, but Edric also heard about Eddard and Ashara. The bigger question is, if it was Wylla, why not tell Jon? There's no major repercussions for admitting he impregnated a household servant. It's not like he's sparing Jon the knowledge that his mother was a common whore, or protecting the reputation of a high born woman.

So you're saying that Edric is not worthy of listening to? Edric says (in the actual book) that E+W=J. So according to your theory of R+L=J Edric has been lied to. Even though Edric is lord of Starfall, all these rumours have passed him by. He seems pretty smart in the book and he believes E+W=J. So forgive me for discounting your theories. But I'd rather trust the theories of a guy in the actual story as apposed to a fan.

If you aren't a lawyer, you should be one. You argue the R+L=J so well. Even so. You are a fan just like me. Lord Edric is an honest fictional character and he notably supports E+W=J. I mean he says straight out that Wylla is Jon's mother.

Not true. Wylla could have had a baby a year or two before nursing Jon, weaned her own and started nursing Jon. The fact that there's no mention was made of another child doesn't mean there wasn't one. It just isn't that important a detail. How many nobles would have made a point of speaking about a servant's child unless that child was noteworthy in some way? And again, maybe the child died.

Oh so rather than believing what is actually written in the books, you go on to believe unwritten circutmstantial evidence.

This is a real sticking point for me. I just can't believe that Wylla would be rumoured to be the mother if she was never pregnant. I mean I'm sure when it happened the various birds and spiders would know that Ned knocked someone up. Why are ya'll discounting that so easily? It's an accepted rumour that E+W=J in the actual books. Would Littlefinger, Varys and others keep the "lie" if weren't true?

As for my thoughts on the wolves and stuff I apologize. I know GRRM won't go all cliche on us. Even if R+L=J proves to be true. I just have nightmares of him going Raymond E. Feist or Dragonlance on us, lol.

In conclusion. The evidence for E+W=J is overwheling. Hopefully A Dance With Dragons will prove me right once and for all.

[SFDanny]

In conclusion. The evidence for E+W=J is overwheling. Hopefully A Dance With Dragons will prove me right once and for all.

Many find it quite less than overwhelming. The strongest evidence is indeed the statements by the two Neds - Stark and Dayne - that straightforwardly put Wylla's name forth as Jon's mother. Yet we have yet to find out why, if this is so, it is such a great secret. Why does Ned Stark refuse to tell his wife and Jon Wylla's name for fifteen years? Is he just being cruel? Does he endanger his marriage to Catelyn because he doesn't want her to know the identity of a wet nurse in Dorne who is proudly proclaiming she is Jon's mother? Does he keep Wylla's identity from Jon because the boy just kind of ticks him off? Or is Ned so ashamed, not that he has a bastard son - he tells that to the world and keeps the boy close to him in breaking all tradition - but rather because he is so ashamed that it is Wylla that is his mother? Is she that repellant that he can't tell Jon and Cat who she is? The motives are more than a tad murky here. One doesn't have to go into the plethora of hints supporting Lyanna as Jon's mother to get to questions about how can Wylla really be Jon mother. It's not just what could Ned's motivation be for keeping this a secret be that calls it into question, but also things like why don't his men know that Jon's mother is Wylla. It's not Wylla's name that reaches Catelyn's ear - it's Ashara's. Yet if Wylla is truly Ned's mysterious paramour she would have had to be with Ned some three to four months into the rebellion - either right before or right after Ned is married to Catelyn - without anyone among Ned's troops, or Robert for that matter, being any the wiser. If Wylla truly is Dornish, and living in Dorne - as suggested by Cersei's remarks, how is it that the Lord of Winterfell finds himself in Dorne during this time period? If Wylla isn't a Dornish peasant, and Ned meets her somewhere else during the war, not only do we have to ask why don't any of his troops know who she is, but why does the Lord and Lady of Starfall take her in - especially considering Ashara supposedly kills herself of the loss of Ned's love? Very little of this makes much sense, but if we don't want to ask any questions, and want to ignore all the hints in another direction, AND we only want to accept what is written from Robert's and Ned Dayne's points of view as data points, then I suppose I can see - if I squint really hard and hit myself over the head a few times - that one could call that "overwhelming."

One other thing. I think you will get your wish, at least to this extent, I'd bet that A Dance with Dragons provides evidence to support all three of the leading theories about who is Jon's mother, including Wylla. Not a chance this is resolved in this book, however, imho.

[zmflavius]

So you're saying that Edric is not worthy of listening to? Edric says (in the actual book) that E+W=J. So according to your theory of R+L=J Edric has been lied to. Even though Edric is lord of Starfall, all these rumours have passed him by. He seems pretty smart in the book and he believes E+W=J. So forgive me for discounting your theories. But I'd rather trust the theories of a guy in the actual story as apposed to a fan.

Nobody in the books who is not some sort of omnipresent god-figure is completely worthy of listening to barring a wealth of physical evidence, some decent deduction, or proof that they actually know the truth and are releasing it for some reason or other because of the skewing caused by the strict first person viewpoint, and Martin's intentionally vague descriptions. Ned was a smart guy who thought the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn. He also thought that Littlefinger was on his side, and that if he went south, he'd be able to go home someday. Stannis believes that he really is TPTWP, and Melisandre is wholly convinced of the same thing. Brienne seriously believed that she could find Sansa by wandering the Riverlands based on what someone in KL who only arrived after Sansa had disappeared told her. Pretty much every POV character not on the Wall believes the Others are a myth. As Armen will tell you, anyone who really believes these stupid sailor stories about dragons in the east should buy that fine cropland in the Neck. Dany believed that a witch who was raped several times could be trusted to heal her assailants' commander without screwing him up. The Blackfish seems to think that Jon is a Lannister toady. Everyone thinks that Varys is on their side. Dany also believed that Ser Jorah was truly loyal to her. Catelyn and Robb believed that the Freys really did want to make up with them. Arya believed briefly that Jaqen H'ghar was a wizard. She also thought that Sandor intended to take her to KL before he corrected that misconception. Sansa thought Joffrey was Prince Charming, and not an evil maniac. Arya thought that a wizard and a giant whale were plotting to kill her father. Or maybe it was just a whale of a wizard and some dirty guy. I haven't read the chapter in a while. Ser Rodrik believed that those ironmen reaving the stony shore were just reavers. Theon believed he could hold Winterfell with just forty men. Just because a character believes something doesn't make it true.

If you aren't a lawyer, you should be one. You argue the R+L=J so well. Even so. You are a fan just like me. Lord Edric is an honest fictional character and he notably supports E+W=J. I mean he says straight out that Wylla is Jon's mother.

Which is a strike against N+W=J.

Oh so rather than believing what is actually written in the books, you go on to believe unwritten circutmstantial evidence.

We do this all the time, because what's written in the books is almost never true at first blush. For example, it's presented in the first book that the Lannisters hired Ser Hugh to kill Jon Arryn, and that Cersei is the most likely candidate to have murdered Bran. Both of these are patently wrong, and in any case, due to Martin's reputation as a deconstructionist, if a theory is presented bluntly in the books, has no support other than "someone said it," and is the first (and often second) theory presented, it is almost certainly wrong, whatever the subject. On the flip side, you are ignoring the fact that the circumstantial evidence is not unwritten, but rather written, assuming you hold the similar belief to other readers that "written" can be defined by squiggles of ink on a paper sheet. Or maybe we have a different definition of written.

This is a real sticking point for me. I just can't believe that Wylla would be rumoured to be the mother if she was never pregnant. I mean I'm sure when it happened the various birds and spiders would know that Ned knocked someone up. Why are ya'll discounting that so easily? It's an accepted rumour that E+W=J in the actual books. Would Littlefinger, Varys and others keep the "lie" if weren't true?

Because Wylla was the Queen who was promised, and would have but one kid, no more, no less, not two, and let's not go near three, and not zero except to go to one? And said queen would have her son with a Northern hard-ass who was so honorable that he slipped his vows but once, not with his true love, as one might imagine, but in fact with a servant, who was not notable in any way, other than that she would eventually birth someone, in order to prepare her to wet nurse for the Lord of Starfall? But seriously now, you've also discounted the theory of N+A=J which, if anything, is more likely, because Ashara Dayne was actually previously romantically involved with Ned, but suffers from the same timeline issues. In any case, said "rumour" is so common that Cersei doesn't actually believe it, Robert can't remember the mother's name, Catelyn believes it was actually Ashara, and Littlefinger and Varys clearly are actually warlocks in disguise, who actually give a shit about Ned's bastard whom they've never seen before and just before Ned accepted the Handship, became a complete non-factor in that he took a one-way trip to the edge of the world. You know, because the Littlefinger and Varys who live in KL, and not Qarth are not members of the Pirate party, which is convinced that all information should be free, but rather the Party of Varys and the Party of Littlefinger, which is more inclined to the cause of Varys and Littlefinger.

In conclusion. The evidence for E+W=J is overwheling. Hopefully A Dance With Dragons will prove me right once and for all.

The evidence for E+W=J is two guys, one of whom can't even remember Wylla's name, claiming that Eddard fathered Jon on her. Strikes against the theory are outlined on TotH, but one which springs to mind is why Eddard thought Jon would consider learning that his mother was some house servant so meaningful that if he could only tell Jon one thing, he would tell him that his mother was some Dornish servant. Hence, why I hope that this isn't so, because it would simply be incredibly poor writing on Martin's part, to do what amounts to pulling Jon's mother out of his arse.

[Raventhal]

The problem with it not being R+L=J is that why are the Kings Guard after the rebellion is over still guarding/holding Lyanna? The speak of oaths but what oaths do they have to hide/hold/guard a Stark? Obviously their job is guarding royalty or more specific the king. You put together that Lyanna was what was being guarded and all the other heirs were dead. It means she would likely mean she was with child and that child would be King Jon since Aegon was dead.

[Popgun]

The problem with it not being R+L=J is that why are the Kings Guard after the rebellion is over still guarding/holding Lyanna? The speak of oaths but what oaths do they have to hide/hold/guard a Stark? Obviously their job is guarding royalty or more specific the king. You put together that Lyanna was what was being guarded and all the other heirs were dead. It means she would lily mean she was with child and that child would be King Jon since Aegon was dead.

omg...

I'm done. I mean seriously. How many times do I have to explain this.

Even if your dream of R+L=J is true, why are the kingsguard defending a newborn bastard child of Rhaegars when he already has 2 legitimate chidren? Oh that's right, all the champions of roswell aliens point out that Targaryens practiced polygamy 300 years ago. Maybe Rhaegar has revived it.

*palm to face and a big sigh*

Bullshit. Even if Rhaegar took a second wife and dogged her and Lyanna popped out a kid. Why would 3 kingsguard be at the tower of joy defending the 2nd son of Rhaegar?

Total crap. They were there coz rhaegar was raping Lyanna and didn't want her to escape. So he commanded the kings guard to keep her there.

[Raventhal]

omg...

I'm done. I mean seriously. How many times do I have to explain this.

Even if your dream of R+L=J is true, why are the kingsguard defending a newborn bastard child of Rhaegars when he already has 2 legitimate chidren? Oh that's right, all the champions of roswell aliens point out that Targaryens practiced polygamy 300 years ago. Maybe Rhaegar has revived it.

*palm to face and a big sigh*

Bullshit. Even if Rhaegar took a second wife and dogged her and Lyanna popped out a kid. Why would 3 kingsguard be at the tower of joy defending the 2nd son of Rhaegar?

Total crap. They were there coz rhaegar was raping Lyanna and didn't want her to escape. So he commanded the kings guard to keep her there.

So you're saying that Rhaegar told the Kings Guard to fight to death guarding a kidnapped Lyanna even if he dies and the little left of the Targaryen line is fleeing across the sea? You mean likely the best of the King Guards are used to hold one girl? You mean there were no regular loyalist guard to watch a 15 year old out in the middle of nowhere?

EDIT: Why the pool of blood? Did one of the Kings Guard decide to stab her before they protected her to the death? Makes no sense any other way than R+L=J. The other children were guarded in KL with other Kings Guards already.

[Dragonfish]

If you aren't a lawyer, you should be one. You argue the R+L=J so well. Even so. You are a fan just like me. Lord Edric is an honest fictional character and he notably supports E+W=J. I mean he says straight out that Wylla is Jon's mother.

Well, a lawyer (or rather, a judge) would never accept Edric Dayne's "testimony", because it's hearsay. He was never actually there to witness the events, he may not even have been born when Jon was, so anything he says is just based on what someone else says. And we don't know who that someone else was. It could be that it was one of Edric's servants, who was told by Wylla that Jon was her son and had no reason to question that. Or maybe it was Edric's own parents. We don't know, because Edric doesn't tell us. So his "testimony" isn't as strong a piece of evidence as you think.

Oh so rather than believing what is actually written in the books, you go on to believe unwritten circutmstantial evidence.

Just to continue the "lawyer" motif here, the problem with E+W=J is that Ned and Wylla lack motive, means, and opportunity. SFDanny has already laid this out, so I'll summarize: we have no indication that Ned was in Dorne a few months into the war, nor do we have any indication that Wylla was somewhere outside of Dorne during the war. So putting them together during the war requires conjecture based on, dare I say it, "unwritten circumstantial evidence."

This is a real sticking point for me. I just can't believe that Wylla would be rumoured to be the mother if she was never pregnant. I mean I'm sure when it happened the various birds and spiders would know that Ned knocked someone up. Why are ya'll discounting that so easily? It's an accepted rumour that E+W=J in the actual books. Would Littlefinger, Varys and others keep the "lie" if weren't true?

For all we know, Littlefinger was tucked away on the Fingers during the war. He wasn't really the master schemer that he is today, and I doubt he had a network of spies to inform him about what was really going on.

As for Varys, well, I think you underestimate how much he knows. Yes, he has an extensive network of spies, but he's not omniscient. Sansa and Dontos were able to keep their conversations hidden from him (while in the Red Keep, mind you) simply by speaking in the godswood. So it's not difficult to suppose that R+L=J could be hidden from Varys, especially since Rhaegar and Lyanna had been hiding out in an isolated and virtually unknown location.

[Masha]

omg...

I'm done. I mean seriously. How many times do I have to explain this.

Even if your dream of R+L=J is true, why are the kingsguard defending a newborn bastard child of Rhaegars when he already has 2 legitimate chidren? Oh that's right, all the champions of roswell aliens point out that Targaryens practiced polygamy 300 years ago. Maybe Rhaegar has revived it.

*palm to face and a big sigh*

Bullshit. Even if Rhaegar took a second wife and dogged her and Lyanna popped out a kid. Why would 3 kingsguard be at the tower of joy defending the 2nd son of Rhaegar?

Total crap. They were there coz rhaegar was raping Lyanna and didn't want her to escape. So he commanded the kings guard to keep her there.

Why are you so sure that Wylla is Jon's mother's then? Isn't obstinacy of R+L=J theorists equals yours?

No need for fake exasperation sighs.

You theory is as weak as R+L=J theory or Ashara one, even weaker considering there is no reason for Ned's crazy secrecy regarding Jon's mother if it was really low-born Wylla? Explain the reason for Ned's secrecy to Jon or anyone else if it was really Wylla - whether she is Dornish milkmother to Daynes, Ashara's maid or fisherman's daughter = commoner commoner commoner.

Do you really think that it would have mattered to Jon if she was a common woman as opposed to his assumption of it being a whore? Ned would fear that he would run away from Winterfell to find his peasant mother at that place and age, really ?

Whomever Jon's mother is its not going to be a commoner woman or Wylla, unless "Wylla" is a fake name for Ashara or other noblewoman.

And even if there is a hint on Wylla being Jon's mother in ADWD (as you probably know there is based on sample chapters for Davos), it looks and smells like a Red Herring, if I ever saw one.

[SFDanny]

omg...

I'm done. I mean seriously. How many times do I have to explain this.

It might be helpful if you read the many pages of these threads and the many entries in the SSM collections that deal with some of your points. Then you would understand the feelings of people who have dealt over and over with some of the points you have raised, even though the obvious holes in the argument has been shown over and over again.

Even if your dream of R+L=J is true, why are the kingsguard defending a newborn bastard child of Rhaegars when he already has 2 legitimate chidren? Oh that's right, all the champions of roswell aliens point out that Targaryens practiced polygamy 300 years ago. Maybe Rhaegar has revived it.

*palm to face and a big sigh*

Bullshit. Even if Rhaegar took a second wife and dogged her and Lyanna popped out a kid. Why would 3 kingsguard be at the tower of joy defending the 2nd son of Rhaegar?

Because that second son, if Lyanna was married, is the heir to the throne by the time Ned arrives there. Aerys is dead, Rhaegar is dead, and Aegon is dead, and even little Rhaenys is dead. Your question should properly be why are all three of the remaining loyalist kingsguard still at the Tower of Joy when, from their discussion with Ned, they know what happened on the Trident and at King's Landing, and they know Viserys is on Dragonstone? Jaime tells us quite explicitly their first duty is to guard their king, but not one of them is trying to get to Dragonstone to guard Viserys. Their presence up to that point is explained by royal orders, but after Viserys is their king, at least one of them should be going to Dragonstone. So, your question actually is a support for the idea that Lyanna's child is a legitimate child and heir to the throne. Either that or the heir to the throne is at the Tower in the person of Aegon - highly unlikely, or these three kingsguard who fight to the death to fulfill their orders, do so in violation of their oaths to guard the king - even more unlikely in my mind.

Total crap. They were there coz rhaegar was raping Lyanna and didn't want her to escape. So he commanded the kings guard to keep her there.

At least we agree that Rhaegar commanded them to guard her. The rest is nonsense.

[Dragonfish]

Even if your dream of R+L=J is true, why are the kingsguard defending a newborn bastard child of Rhaegars when he already has 2 legitimate chidren? Oh that's right, all the champions of roswell aliens point out that Targaryens practiced polygamy 300 years ago. Maybe Rhaegar has revived it.

*palm to face and a big sigh*

"Champions of roswell aliens"? The books outright state that Targaryens once practiced polygamy. Just because you don't like the theory doesn't mean it isn't plausible, or doesn't have reasonable evidence supporting it.

Bullshit. Even if Rhaegar took a second wife and dogged her and Lyanna popped out a kid. Why would 3 kingsguard be at the tower of joy defending the 2nd son of Rhaegar?

Because the second son of Rhaegar is a member of the royal family as well, and may need Kingsguard protection. And the other members of the royal family were already under protection at the time.

ETA--Of course, that wasn't true when Ned found them, as SFDanny outlines above.

Total crap. They were there coz rhaegar was raping Lyanna and didn't want her to escape. So he commanded the kings guard to keep her there.

So you're saying that the Kingsguard were there because Rhaegar ordered them to guard the woman he was raping?

OK, if that theory is plausible to you, then why could it not instead be the case that the Kingsguard were there because Rhaegar ordered them to guard his bastard son? If you're going to rely on "Rhaegar ordered them to" in order to support your theory, then you have to be willing to allow us to use "Rhaegar ordered them to" in order to support our theory.

[LadyMary]

blah, I'm enough of a fan to try again. Kind of annoyed an hour's work got skewered but whatever. Like was it my fault all that stuff got deleted or what? Whatever, I'll ass it's m fault and start again.

I hate when that happens!

So you're saying that Edric is not worthy of listening to? Edric says (in the actual book) that E+W=J. So according to your theory of R+L=J Edric has been lied to. Even though Edric is lord of Starfall, all these rumours have passed him by. He seems pretty smart in the book and he believes E+W=J. So forgive me for discounting your theories. But I'd rather trust the theories of a guy in the actual story as apposed to a fan.

If you aren't a lawyer, you should be one. You argue the R+L=J so well. Even so. You are a fan just like me. Lord Edric is an honest fictional character and he notably supports E+W=J. I mean he says straight out that Wylla is Jon's mother.

Haha! Not a lawyer but I work with them...it must be an occupational hazard. ;)

Anyway, I think Edric believes what he says. Either it is true (and the big fat mystery of Jon's maternity turns out to be a big fat..."Eh, whatever.") or it's what Edric has been told and he was either lied to or allowed to believe it without being corrected.

Of course it is possible that Jon's mother is indeed Wylla, a common household servant of the Daynes. On the surface, it looks like and open-and-shut case. But if so, it doesn't explain why Eddard brought Jon back to Winterfell and took him from his mother (which as Catelyn thinks, was not customary of noblemen who fathered bastards on commoners), or when/where Eddard and Wylla might have hooked up at the right time to conceive, bring the pregnancy to term and give birth during the approximate year of Robert's Rebellion. Robert had never met her and Ned and Robert were apparently together in the Vale at the start of the war. So when did Ned meet Wylla and why would it be such a dire secret that Ned couldn't even tell Jon her name?

Edric also heard about Eddard and Ashara. There are some people who believe Ashara was Jon's mother - Catelyn and Cersei to name two, granted, based on certain past events and rumors. Ashara's whereabouts vis-a-vis Ned Stark during Robert's rebellion are no more certain than Wylla's, and if she was Jon's birth mother Ned would have more reason to want to keep her secret. Afterall, she was a noblewoman with a reputation to uphold. By the time Jon was born, Ned was already married to Catelyn and Ned killed Ashara's brother at the tower of Joy. I could see Ned keeping her secret out of respect for Ashara's memory, out of grief and guilt for having caused her to despair so much that she killed herself, and to spare Jon knowing that his mother did not care enough to live for him. At least it would explain why he took Jon back to Winterfell with him because Jon's mother was dead.

Spoiler from one of the ADwD reading transcripts (Davos I):

Apparently there were rumors that Jon's mother was a fisherman's daughter who gave Ned passage as he was making his way from the Vale back to the North at the start of the war... the rumor was he left her with a sack of silver and a baby in her belly that she named Jon, after Jon Arryn. Seems unlikely for timeline reasons, as well as the reason that the producers of GoT got the answer right in their meeting with GRRM, and I assume they wouldn't know about a character who hadn't been introduced yet. It's just one more "theory" to throw out there that fits some of the known facts.

Oh so rather than believing what is actually written in the books, you go on to believe unwritten circutmstantial evidence.

This is a real sticking point for me. I just can't believe that Wylla would be rumoured to be the mother if she was never pregnant. I mean I'm sure when it happened the various birds and spiders would know that Ned knocked someone up. Why are ya'll discounting that so easily? It's an accepted rumour that E+W=J in the actual books. Would Littlefinger, Varys and others keep the "lie" if weren't true?

Yes. I think the circumstantial evidence paints a stronger picture (R+L=J) than the most "obvious" answer (E+W=J). I think E+W=J is a red herring.

I never said Wylla was never pregnant. Obviously, she was once pregnant or else she would not be lactating. That doesn't mean she was pregnant with Jon Snow. She could have weaned a child or had a child die in infancy before she became a wet nurse for Jon. There's no reason why Edric would necessarily know that.

Why do you assume Varys knew? Even the King couldn't find Rhaegar when he went off with Lyanna. I think Rhaegar trusted only Arthur and a couple of other KG with the secret precisely because he knew the Varys had spies all over the place. Littlefinger wasn't at court yet when all this would have happened. He was appointed by Jon Arryn after Robert was crowned.

As for my thoughts on the wolves and stuff I apologize. I know GRRM won't go all cliche on us. Even if R+L=J proves to be true. I just have nightmares of him going Raymond E. Feist or Dragonlance on us, lol.

In conclusion. The evidence for E+W=J is overwheling. Hopefully A Dance With Dragons will prove me right once and for all.

I don't know the other works you mention. I can say that after the big mystery of who Jon's mother is, it would be a real let down if Ned lost his honor by having sex with was just some servant on his way to a war.

[SirCharles of HouseBarkley]

I had a thought. I don't know how much I believe this theory myself. What if Ashara died while giving birth to Jon instead of committing suicide. Ned told people that he had the baby with Wylla to protect Ashara's honor as is part of one of the popular theory.

But as for people telling that Jon is the son of Eddard and Wylla, most everyone would see Jon as just another bastard and not think twice about his parentage. Ned didn't tell Cat or Jon the name Wylla because either one would be inclined to investigate and may find out the truth, what ever that my be. Ned was just keeping the first piece of the puzzle from them to keep them from having a starting point to try and solve it.

[PetrusOctavianus]

I haven't read this thread (far too much to read), but I'm sure everything about Jon and Ned has benn discussed in every minute detail now.

Anyway, one thing is puzzling me. Why would Ned keep Jon at Winterfell? It's not excactly a nice thing to do to his wife, to have the result of his infidelity, and a possible rival to her own children if Ned's bosom buddy King Robert legitimizes Jon, thrown in her face each and every day.

Why didn't Ned arrange for Jon to be fostered by one of his bannermen, for example?

If the R+L=J theory is true he is hiding Jon's true identity because that would make Jon a Targ, which is not a safe thing to be as long as Robert is king. But he should still be safe with one of his bannermen who has no reason to suspect that Jon is anything lese than Ned's bastard.

So what could his promise to Lyanna be that requires Jon to be raised at Winterfell?

It just sounds very callous of Ned, and out of character, to not respect his wife's feelings.