The R+L=J thread, part XI

[zmflavius]

Tyrion Targaryen?

Ah.

[jlk7e]

Is there any textual evidence for the idea that Tyrion is Aerys's son? At this point, our last reference to Tyrion has been Genna Lannister saying that he was Tywin's only true son, and I think that's been a point the books have been making more implicitly for some time. I guess I just don't see it at all.

[Dragonfish]

Is there any textual evidence for the idea that Tyrion is Aerys's son?

Very little.

-Tywin at one point says he cannot prove that Tyrion is not his son. Some interpret that as a clue that Tyrion is indeed not his son. I interpret that as a clue that Tywin wishes Tyrion were not his son.

-Tyrion has dragon dreams, which some interpret as a clue that he's a Targ. I interpret it as a clue that he's fascinated by dragons.

The theory is ultimately crackpot and wishful thinking, with very flimsy evidence to support it (especially when compared to the wealth of evidence supporting R+L=J). If others would like to discuss it further, then we should probably open a new thread.

[Galen M]

Is there any textual evidence for the idea that Tyrion is Aerys's son? At this point, our last reference to Tyrion has been Genna Lannister saying that he was Tywin's only true son, and I think that's been a point the books have been making more implicitly for some time. I guess I just don't see it at all.

so, now we've got the theory that Dany, Tyrion, and Jon are all Aerys's kids...

[SingleMort]

This might sound silly but the more this thread goes on the less I want it to be true.

After all these years of this theory bouncing around I think I would feel disappointed that GRRM went down such a conventional route.

It's funny as well because as well as R+L=J theory there's also the theory that Dany and Jon will get together. Surely people can't be hoping for both?? I think we've had quite enough incest already.

I've also heard people say that Jon being part Targaryen will lead to Him actually making use or bonding with the dragons. I don't see that happening to be honest if it's true about Jon's parentage. He might end up riding a dragon but I doubt he could bond with them like Dany. I mean Jon is already bonded to Ghost and I seriously doubt you could have both.

Besides even if Jon was a Targaryen what difference would it make. I mean he'd still be a bastard. I doubt he be able to lay any claim to the iron throne even if he wasn't sworn to the Wall. The most I could see him gaining from that would perhaps be some sort of kinship with Dany.

I think Jon is probably Lyanna's son but I have no firm idea who his father is. Maybe Robert got drunk one night and raped her then forgot about it.

[zmflavius]

This might sound silly but the more this thread goes on the less I want it to be true.

After all these years of this theory bouncing around I think I would feel disappointed that GRRM went down such a conventional route.

Conventional?

It's funny as well because as well as R+L=J theory there's also the theory that Dany and Jon will get together. Surely people can't be hoping for both?? I think we've had quite enough incest already.

Some people do, but when there's Targs, how can there possiblybe enough incest.

I've also heard people say that Jon being part Targaryen will lead to Him actually making use or bonding with the dragons. I don't see that happening to be honest if it's true about Jon's parentage. He might end up riding a dragon but I doubt he could bond with them like Dany. I mean Jon is already bonded to Ghost and I seriously doubt you could have both.

It's a point that divides the fandom. Personally, I think that his reaction to learning that he's a Targaryen (if he is one) should be one of "meh, that's nice" with possibly running into danger with Melisandre.

Besides even if Jon was a Targaryen what difference would it make. I mean he'd still be a bastard. I doubt he be able to lay any claim to the iron throne even if he wasn't sworn to the Wall. The most I could see him gaining from that would perhaps be some sort of kinship with Dany.

I think that it not making a difference would be kind of the point.

I think Jon is probably Lyanna's son but I have no firm idea who his father is. Maybe Robert got drunk one night and raped her then forgot about it.

Yeah, but this idea isn't really supported by the text.

[jlk7e]

I think Jon is probably Lyanna's son but I have no firm idea who his father is. Maybe Robert got drunk one night and raped her then forgot about it.

1) I think the timeline is such that if Lyanna is the mother, Rhaegar is the only plausible father. Also, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and took her to the Tower of Joy so that she could sit around and be pregnant with someone else's kid?

2) "the seed is strong" - all Robert's bastards look just like him; Jon looks like a Stark

3) Why would Ned need to conceal Jon's paternity from Robert if he's Robert's son?

I think any theory that Jon is Lyanna's son by someone other than Rhaegar does a very poor job fitting the facts we know from the book.

[MattTaz]

Tyrion not being Twyin's son is always a bit strange for me. Sure he dreams of dragons, but I think it was just daydreaming.

And he was young and wanted to kill his father i think (i'm going from memory here so may be wrong)

But his Aunt said it true. 'Tyrion is Tywin's son, not Jaime'

There is also the habit of when they are angry, Tywin and Tyrion clench and unclench their fist.

This is a genetic trait. If there not related, this is an amazing coincidence

Just with Jon and Dany. I think its fact that she will ride 3 mounts, Drogo, one to dread and one to love.

If Dany is barren, and there is no more Targs out there, Jon may be the last hope of continuing her line, so

ahe may set him up with someone else. Lots of 'ifs' there I know.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think that the available evidence points most strongly to the theory of R+L=J. We know that Jon has Stark blood from the mention that only he and Arya resemble Ned and have Stark faces; and that Ned has taken trouble (and considerable flack from the wife he loves) to raise the boy in his house, and Ned has been very coy about naming Jon's mother. Add to that his strong memories, haunting him even after 14-odd years, of his dying sister begging him to "promise" something, and Lyanna's long disappearance after leaving (voluntarily or otherwise) with the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms (who has publicly revealed himself to be attracted to Lyanna), and the R+L=J theory at least is viable. There is also the fact that Lyanna had been guarded by members of the Kingsguard, who were traditionally supposed to protect the Targaryen king.

I can't see Ned being haunted just by Lyanna's asking him to bury her in Winterfell, when I think both Lyanna and Ned would expect her to be buried in what Ned later calls her place. I think there's a strong possibility that Lyanna was begging Ned to protect and foster her child, a child whose heredity placed him/her in danger.

Other possibilities for Jon's parentage:

Ned x Lyanna - I just don't see Ned, who wears honor on his heart as well as on his sleeve, having sex with his sister.

Rickard x Lyanna - Doesn't seem likely either. I don't think that incest is too widespread among the people of Westeros, Targaryens and Jaime/Cersei excepted.

Robert x Lyanna - If they had had a secret marriage, baby Jon would have been Robert's heir. A secret marriage implies that Lyanna was much more fond of Robert than Ned remembers. In this scenario, why wouldn't Lyanna want her son acknowledged as a Baratheon? Doesn't work for me. An alternative is that Robert raped Lyanna, perhaps out of anger because of Lyanna's growing attraction to Rhaegar; and Lyanna fled from him into Rhaegar's arms and then found herself pregnant by Robert; and Rhaegar wanted her kept safe from Robert. In this scenario, the dying Lyanna could have begged Ned to keep her baby away from Robert and raise him to be a good and honorable Stark. But this scenario doesn't work either, because if Lyanna told Ned that Robert had raped her, Ned probably would have tried his best to kill his new king, and certainly wouldn't cherish fond memories of Robert and a desire to keep up their friendship. A more plausible alternative is that Robert and Lyanna had consensual sex, but Lyanna did not love Robert and did not want to marry him. In which case, why would she then run off with Rhaegar? Rhaegar could have kidnapped and hurt Lyanna; but so far at least, GRRM has painted Rhaegar as one of the nice-guys-finish-last; a charismatic, good-hearted prince with considerable martial artistry but a lack of violent impulses, and a creative side. From what we know about Rhaegar so far, the worst thing he definitely did was make romantic overtures to a female who was not his wife - the rest is conjecture.

Aerys x Lyanna - out of left field, I know, but it would make Jon a Targaryen king's son. If Rhaegar initially quartered Lyanna in King's Landing, and Aegon raped her; that's another reason for Rhaegar to want to take Lyanna far away from the King's reach. Doubtful, but not absolutely impossible. (no, I haven't checked out the timeline to see if Aerys died before he could have conceived Lyanna's child; I didn't think that Jon's birthdate or Lyanna's death date was pinned down...)

Rhaegar x Lyanna - Still the most plausible theory in my opinion. The prophecy of The Prince Who Was Promised could apply either to poor little Aegon or Jon. So far, I don't think GRRM has meant to convey the absolute reliability of prophecies, witness the application of the Dothraki legend of The Stallion Who Mounts the World to the stillborn and deformed son of Drogo & Dany. But GRRM might intend that some prophecies do come true. Besides, an eventual revelation of Jon Snow, reticent, knows-his-place, commander of the Wall Jon Snow as a Targaryen heir would definitely stir things up, which is something I think GRRM would enjoy writing. I'd personally like to see Theon's reaction if Theon's still alive at that point.

I do concur that Jon himself would not be swept away with Dragonish pride if he finds out that Rhaegar was his father. He'd probably be more pleased about Lyanna being his mother; but on the whole, I think he would prefer that Ned be his true father. Also, Jon would look for how his new status might help him defeat those pesky Others - could he call Dany and her dragons to defend the Wall?

It is fun to speculate. GRRM has done a good job in making Ned, Jon, and even long-dead Lyanna and Rhaegar, engaging characters.

[Dragonfish]

Aegon x Lyanna - out of left field, I know, but it would make Jon a Targaryen king's son. If Rhaegar initially quartered Lyanna in King's Landing, and Aegon raped her; that's another reason for Rhaegar to want to take Lyanna far away from Aegon's reach. Doubtful, but not absolutely impossible. (no, I haven't checked out the timeline to see if Aegon died before he could have conceived Lyanna's child; I didn't think that Jon's birthdate or Lyanna's death date was pinned down...)

I think Aegon raping Lyanna is the most disturbing theory of Jon's parentage I've ever read...

[Raksha the Demon]

I think Aegon raping Lyanna is the most disturbing theory of Jon's parentage I've ever read...

Shoot, did I say Aegon? I meant Aerys, as in "Mad King". And it is out of left field and far less probable than Rhaegar x Lyanna, an affair I think was a love match, or at least an infatuation, rather than a rape.

(runs away to edit her prior post....)

[SingleMort]

Well couldn't another idea be that Rheagar and Lyanna did have a child just not Jon. Maybe that's not likely either.

I can't see Jon being "the prince that was promised". I mean in order for that to be Dany would have to legitimise him and that's hardly going to happen very soon even if they meet in the next book. Even then he'd still be sworn to the Wall. And even if that wasn't the case by then he'd also have Robb making him a legitimate Stark and heir of Winterfell. I think he'd choose Winterfell over the iron throne.

I also think it's odd that Jon if he is half Targaryen hasn't appeared to have any Targaryen physical or character traits. Yes it would be incredibly obvious if he had violet eyes or something, but I mean more subtle like certain mannerisms like Rheagar. I mean Dany frequently seems to act like Rheagar but Jon seems to take wholly after his Stark half.

[Morekyyn]

Viserys tells Dany on several occasions to not wake the dragon, well Jon´s dragon or wolf has been woken on some occasions, throtling Thorne and bashing Iron Emmett to the ground.

I assume you could call that bad anger management at the very least.

[SingleMort]

Viserys tells Dany on several occasions to not wake the dragon, well Jon´s dragon or wolf has been woken on some occasions, throtling Thorne and bashing Iron Emmett to the ground.

I assume you could call that bad anger management at the very least.

Oh come on now, someone losing their temper is hardly an indication that they're related to somone else who loses their temper. If that was the case most of the characters in ther series would be related.

[Dragonfish]

Oh come on now, someone losing their temper is hardly an indication that they're related to somone else who loses their temper. If that was the case most of the characters in ther series would be related.

Just out of curiosity, which one of Rhaegar's "character traits" or "mannerisms" would you expect Jon to have? And why would you expect him to have them, considering he was raised in the Stark household?

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

I think I am in favour of Rhaegar & Lyanna being Jon's parents, a lot of clues (all mentioned in previous threads) point that way, plus, why were three members of the King's Guard protecting her and not with Rhaegar or the Mad King? Ser Arthur Dayne being probably the best knight of that generation and, I believe, the Commander of the King's Guard being present as well?

But I also like the idea of Ser Arthur Dayne being Jon's father, taking the Lancelot angle (King's Arthur's/Rhaegar's greatest friend & knight and Gwenevere/Lyanna lover, Joyous Gard being Lancelot's castle/Tower of Joy) and perhaps Lyanna not aware of who the father was? Ned may not be aware at the start and only as Jon grows older does he begin to see Jon's father's features in Jon.

But I still prefer Rhaegar & Lyanna theory better.

As to Tyrion's parentage, Tywin's last words were quote "You...you are no...no son of mine." end quote.

If Ned isn't Jon's father and Tywin was speaking truth, then we have Stark & Lannister patriarchs claiming some one else's son as their own, but for different reasons, Ned as a promise to his sister, Tywin to prevent it being know that he had been cockolded. Both doing so out of honour. A curious symmetry, if true.

[iheartseverus]

and perhaps Lyanna not aware of who the father was?

You're implying that young Miss Stark was, ummm... rather liberal with her favors?

In any case, welcome to the board!

[Raksha the Demon]

I also think it's odd that Jon if he is half Targaryen hasn't appeared to have any Targaryen physical or character traits. Yes it would be incredibly obvious if he had violet eyes or something, but I mean more subtle like certain mannerisms like Rheagar. I mean Dany frequently seems to act like Rheagar but Jon seems to take wholly after his Stark half.

Since Jon isn't known to be Rhaegar's son, and is assumed to be Ned's son, then the people around him wouldn't really notice the connection of a mannerism or character trait shared by Rhaegar and Jon. Daenerys' pedigree is well-known; and Jorah would have been happy to find traits she shared with a prince who was beloved and mentally stable rather than with her mess of a brother or crazed father. My own father physically resembled his mother (dark hair and dark eyes) rather than his father (blond hair and blue eyes) but did inherit his father's rather dry wit and interest in/skill at horsemanship. But if my father had been raised by distant cousins, they might not have noticed that my father's sense of humor was similar to his father's...

It would be more of a clue if Jon exhibited musical talents like Rhaegar, but Jon could just be a throwback to his Stark ancestors. He does seem to have some compassion/empathy; but that is also a Ned trait...Lyanna does seem to have exhibited, from the little that has been said/remembered about her, a decent ability to judge human nature - I'm thinking of her comment about not being able to change Robert's nature after she married him, in terms of influencing him to stay faithful to her. Jon seems a bit more perceptive than Ned, in terms of seeing the good and bad in people and being less likely to trust, but that could just be his upbringing as a bastard in a house where he was cherished by his nominal father and disliked/slighted by his stepmother. (no, I don't hate Catelyn; at least she never threw him out or tried to kill her husband's supposed bastard)

[zmflavius]

You're implying that young Miss Stark was, ummm... rather liberal with her favors?

In any case, welcome to the board!

:stunned:

Even so, I think it would work best to simply not assume something about Lyanna we don't know.

[iheartseverus]

:stunned:

Even so, I think it would work best to simply not assume something about Lyanna we don't know.

Totally agree.