The R+L=J thread, part XI

[Popgun]

Firstly, I'm genuinely interested in whether you're serious or trolling?

I like your assertion that only Jon Snow fans think R+L=J. I don't like Jon at all, I just think R+L=J is the most likely possibility. I don't think he'll become king, though maybe he'll get sacrificed by Mel.

Also, in terms of your first point- This is exactly how lots of women died in the middle ages and even today in the developing world. Birth Fever

You don't just get fevers even pre-modern era without some exposure. In a young, jealthy girl with a fully working immune system, no wounds, this is likely to be puerperal fever. Lyanna specifically had a fever- that was stated in the books-

You can definitely give birth with a fever, that's kind of the definition of puerperal fever!

The combination of a bed of blood, fever and the appearance of a child resembling Lyanna at approximately the same time does point out that puerperal fever is a likely (though of course not the only) cause of Lyanna's death.

I mentioned "birth fever" in my post and you come up with puerperal fever. Well hey, I must admit I had never heard of puerperal fever until you menioned it. I didn't realise these forums had an obstetrician willing to argue R+L=J.

I mean come on.... how is a fan of fantasy books expected to know about puerperal fever when arguing a point.

Even so, you prove me right. If Lyanna was dyeing of childbirth, Ned would think "oh no! My sister is dying of childbirth." I doubt he'd have any idea of "birth fever".

Wow getting technical now..... and the more techntical it gets the more the E+W=J theory is proved correct.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I mentioned "birth fever" in my post and you come up with puerperal fever. Well hey, I must admit I had never heard of puerperal fever until you menioned it. I didn't realise these forums had an obstetrician willing to argue R+L=J.

I mean come on.... how is a fan of fantasy books expected to know about puerperal fever when arguing a point.

Even so, you prove me right. If Lyanna was dyeing of childbirth, Ned would think "oh no! My sister is dying of childbirth." I doubt he'd have any idea of "birth fever".

Wow getting technical now..... and the more techntical it gets the more the E+W=J theory is proved correct.

You realize how silly that sounds don't you? You say fever has nothing to do with labor... You are proven wrong, so then you say well Ned wouldn't have thought it that way... Because why, you out of all people know Neds inner thoughts?

The more technical it gets the more people that argue against Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents sound ridiculous and grasp at straws.

The key to remember here is that Jon's parentage is supposed to be a mystery. If Ned came out and thought "my sister is dying of child birth" it wouldn't be much of a mystery now would it?

Of all the things you point out as evidence none of it is substantial. Its funny how the explanations in favor are more solid than the explanations against.

[zmflavius]

Easy to get overwhelmed by the Snowian Church. Like I love Jon too and will continue to do so when GRRM reveals E+W=J. When E+W=J is revealed as truth I'm anticipating a huge wave of fan outrage. I wouldn't be surprised to see all the Snowians band together and start petitions and the like to get the books rewritten so the "great" Rhaegar can suddenly be Jon's father.

This isn't the first time readers felt disappointed by a plot twist, but nobody complained about earlier ones that much. If anything, it was appreciated to an extent because GRRM didn't perform a giant ass pull to give a happy ending. The problem with E+W=J is that it's effectively a major Ass Pull, in that it's mentioned perhaps twice over the course of no fewer than four books.

"How did Lyanna die?"

From a fever. It is said in the book she died from a fever.

Remember these guys don't have antibiotics so dying from a fever was quite common in those days. I haven't looked into it too much, but I think women dying from childbirth before modern medicine was due to complications such as blood loss. I mean a woman doesn't give birth and then suddenly worry about "birth fever".

Thanks for that question. All other evidence aside, this is enough to prove R+L=J is untrue. She was in her "bed of blood" which Snowians claim is proof of her just giving birth. Well pretty impossible feat then. Someone nearly dead of fever is hardly going to be able to handle a 1-40 hour labour to pop out a baby.

To add to what everyone else said, your argument is actually circular. You argue that because she is said to have died of a fever (and if you've actually finished even one book, you ought to know better than to take anything at face value) which isn't giving birth, and if she was dying of fever, then she couldn't give birth.

What was Ned's promise?

I don't know. Do you? Well.... I do know that he promised to bury her at Winterfell. If she loved Rhaegar so much like most Snowians believe, then why didn't she ask to be buried at the place of their "joy" like everyone else buried there. The other promises? I really don't know. What I do know is that it wasn't a promise to look after her kid. Maybe she was real sad about running away from her duty like she did and made Ned promise to not make the same mistake she did. She tells Ned to honor the family and Stark name. Hence why Ned is so anal over honor and duty in the books.

Ned, that dishonorable dog. Because his sister was a foul slut, he wasn't going to take her corpse home and give her a respectable burial, he was going to take her body and dump it in a ditch somewhere. Maybe a place where eight friends of hers just killed each other. What kind of person would deny someone the right to be buried where their ancestors have all been buried for the past 8000 years? Speaking of which, how is it that you know so much about Lyanna's intentions and words? Did you steal some of GRRM's notes? What makes your claim so much more superior than the other claim, other than the fact that it supports your theory?

He returned her body to Winterfell, wasn't that. What was the bed of blood?

He returned her to Winterfell because it was what she loved most. She didn't love Rhaegar, she didn't love Robert. Lyanna loved her family and House Stark and just wanted to go home after being held prisoner for so long. As for the bed of blood. Well she died in that bed. Maybe the fever made her bleed in the latter stages. Bed of blood equals deathbed? Not a stretch at all. Seems more likely than lifebed where her child was supposedly born.

You do recall that Mirri Maz Duur refers to a birthing bed as a bed of blood right? This is another subtle hint. And what kind of fever causes one to bleed profusely. I can assure you, nosebleeds generally don't turn your bed bloody. Well, they don't where I come from at least.

Why were there Kingsguard there at a remote tower when Rhaegar isn't there?

ummm, coz Rhaegar told them to? From what I've gathered there was only one Kings Guard with the Mad King at the time. Rhaegar had craftily got them away from the Mad King because he was planning a Grand Council coup. The 3 kings gaurd guarded the tower because Rhaegar told them to. The kings guard just do whatever they're told.

This is a how, not a why. Does Rhaegar strike you as the type to send away three of his warriors just for the hell of it? If so, then why not send away four warriors (including Jaime)? Did you really think that these three mighty warriors were imported from Dynasty Warriors, and as such, had the ability to slaughter entire armies with their arms? These three knights were eventually overwhelmed by seven men of middling skill. Or who knows. Maybe Ned Stark et al. also were army-slaughtering player characters.

Why did Rhaegar order it? I dunno, but I do know he has a history of treating woman like total crap. For example, when he won the blue wreath/crown thing. He rides right past his wife (in front of every noble in the land no less) and gives it to Lyanna. *clap.... clap.... clap* nice one Rhaegar. Dishonour your wife in front of the entire kingdom so you can crack onto a young girl who looks hot.

Given that Rhaegar, according to Ned, seemed less than likely to frequent brothels, this suggests that his motives were not because he was a misogynist who wanted to give his wife a take that, but rather because he actually loved Lyanna.

Rhaegar might have been fair in politics and military. The evidence however suggests he treated women like absolute crap.

The "evidence" is an alternate interpretation of a single scene, and one which requires discarding of other evidence. There are roughly several scenes which suggest that he did so to

Why would Robert even ask if he never saw Ned getting it on with Wylla? He mistaked Wylla for Betty and then gets corrected. Robert asks what she looked like and Ned gets all defensive. This shows that Ned was in love with Wylla but had to abandon her for his duty. Wylla was at Winterfell for a bit, but no doubt Cat went spaz and made her leave. Many years later Cat mentions the Ashara rumour, a round about way to get information on Wylla since Ned is so obviously touchy about it. Ned shuts Cat down and that's that.

And this supports your argument how? Because Ned would feel perfectly comfortable saying, "Oh, my bastard actually has targ blood" to Robert, who is notorious for feeling no pity for "dragonspawn?" Maybe this is an alien concept to you, but some people don't make an effort to throw children under the bus. Especially after seeing corpses of children wrapped up in cloaks. And while we're on the subject of Ned in love, he also apparently was in love with Ashara Dayne (Unless you're going to argue that Wylla was actually a lady, who went to the Harrenhal tourney, and had violet eyes), and Cat eventually. And who knows what else. This honorable man really gets around, doesn't he?

In conclusion. The Snowian movement amazes me. It's like a bunch of Jon Snow fans have banded together and created a new religion. Converting new R+L=J desciples any chance you get. Like Jon is so amazing he can't be the bastard child of some serving girl. Believe me. Jon is awesome because it doesn't matter who his parents are.

Go search up a thread of Jon Snow haters, and ask how many of them believe in R+L=J. The message board population is virtually undivided on R+L=J, but the Jon=Mary Sue is an extremely large movement.

It's not an "anti-climax" that Jon's mother is Wylla. It's an amazing story. It shows that all the games of noble families is crap. You don't have to have to have pure bloodlines and noble parents to "save the world". Even if your mother is "Wylla" you can grow up and save the world.

This might make sense, if the past posters didn't claim that he would reject his parentage for the NW.

And one more thing.

Dictionary.com

ev·i·dence

   [ev-i-duhns] Show IPA noun, verb, -denced, -denc·ing.

–noun

1.

that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

2.

something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.

And, strange as it may seem, not

ev·i·dence

   [ev-i-duhns] Show IPA noun, verb, -denced, -denc·ing.

–noun

1.

Something which supports my view point.

2.

Interpretations of quotes which are tenuous as best, and which support my viewpoint.

Also:

Just before the show aired, GRRM asked David Benioff and D.B. Weiss who they thought Jon's parents were. GRRM would later say that he was surprised but pleased, and thought that this boded well for characterization. Now, admittedly, with some of the garbage which appears on TV nowadays, it's relieving to have producers with basic reading comprehension skills, but I don't think GRRM was impressed by their ability to read four 1000-page volumes. Even if many people do have difficulty doing so.

[Popgun]

Ah that answers the troll question then

wow burn.... u really debunked me with that one dude

[Popgun]

I'm hoping peeps will read my post and see the truth. You might think you're smart going R+L=J but you are not. R+L=J is a myth.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I'm hoping peeps will read my post and see the truth. You might think you're smart going R+L=J but you are not. R+L=J is a myth.

Hahaha, trust me, your post aren't convincing anyone of anything, other than the probability that you are a troll. The more I see wild speculation trying to disprove R+ L= J using half the info and throwing out the rest the more I believe in it's truth.

Chewbacca lives on Endor, your argument is invalid.

[Popgun]

Hahaha, trust me, your post aren't convincing anyone of anything, other than the probability that you are a troll. The more I see wild speculation trying to disprove R+ L= J using half the info and throwing out the rest the more I believe in it's truth.

Chewbacca lives on Endor, your argument is invalid.

Well I got challenged to answer 4 questions. I did so. I basically debunked all 4 theories and disproved R+L=J once and for all.

call me a troll all you want. At least admit I won the argument before you concede defeat.... jeez

[Popgun]

Hahaha, trust me, your post aren't convincing anyone of anything, other than the probability that you are a troll. The more I see wild speculation trying to disprove R+ L= J using half the info and throwing out the rest the more I believe in it's truth.

Chewbacca lives on Endor, your argument is invalid.

So you have no facts of your own....

So you have no arguments of our own....

So you no retorts and just.....

Victory! I knew I would kick your ass. It is proven.

..... it is proven

[Jon Blackfyre]

Well I got challenged to answer 4 questions. I did so. I basically debunked all 4 theories and disproved R+L=J once and for all.

call me a troll all you want. At least admit I won the argument before you concede defeat.... jeez

you debunked nothing, your opinion alone doesn't change the mountain of evidence that says you are wrong. sorry.

[Volderon]

you debunked nothing, your opinion alone doesn't change the mountain of evidence that says you are wrong. sorry.

Just leave him alone, he's a troll. He's the troll from the first Harry Potter book, he's not even good enough to be the troll in Lord of the Rings.

[mormont]

[mod] Drop the interpersonal stuff. It has no place in this thread. Discuss the topic only, please. [/mod]

[Jon Blackfyre]

So you have no facts of your own....

So you have no arguments of our own....

So you no retorts and just.....

Victory! I knew I would kick your ass. It is proven.

..... it is proven

And as to this, I was at work posting on my phone, so since you don't get a response in 30 seconds spouting off like a clown is really sad to me. You kicked my ass huh? Victory? Sad sad delusion of grandeur you have there.

Facts of my own, or should I say facts in the story.

3 Kingsguard, sworn to protect the royal family, are guarding Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. she isn't of the royal family, so all likelihood is that she had a child and that is who they are protecting. That kid is Jon. You're idea is that they are there because Rhaegar told them to go there so he could hold them in reserve during the rebllion, not having them help him put down Robert and Ned, and then pull them out after everything is finished to pull rank on his dad... that is effin stupid. You know the saying don't bring a knife to a gun fight? Well you could also say don't leave your biggest guns at home during a war. Or swords in this matter.

The "Bed of Blood" which Mirra Maz Duur also refers to as a birthing bed, is according to you something that happened because of Lyanna's fever... not likely, more like the bed of blood is exactly what it sounds like, a bed that hs been bloodied by childbirth, and wait, who is that kid again? Jon.

"Promise me Ned" you say is her making Ned promise to take her home to be buried I think... or maybe you didn't even have an idea for that one. That is also extremely weak, considering if that was the case Ned could have thought "Promise me Ned, promise me you'll put me in the crypt with Brandon and Father." and the story would have been compeltely fine. By leaving out what he actually promised her, GRRM doesn't give away anything. What is the secret he doesn't want to give away? That Lyanna was taken home to be buried? That's also effin stupid, we all n=know she was taken home. The promise ties with the 3 KG being there, and the bed of blood... which is she gave birth to a child that was fathered by the royal Prince and she doesn't want Robert to find out and kill her child. Once again, that child in question is Jon.

The Winter Rose in the wall of ice in Dany's vision = Jon. Winter Roses were what the Crown of Love and Beauty that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna was made of. A winter rose was also what the king beyond the wall left behind when he stole Lord of Winterfell's daughter and got her pregnant. Coincidence... I think not. Oh and by the way, Rhaegar is referred to as a much more stand up dude than Robert in Ned's mind, so saying him giving the crown to Lyanna is proof he treats woman bad because he didn't give it to his wife is only YOUR opinion.

Lets see, what else, Ned never refers to Jon as his son, only his blood. Ned doesn't tell Cat the truth about Jon's mother and instead hides the facts from her for what you would say is his love for Wylla, but what I would say is that so he doesn't give away the truth of R+L=J. What does it matter if Wylla is Jon's mom to Catelyn, he could tell her and be done with it and she wouldn't need to worry and wonder.

Anything else you can come up with I will slap down, because the simple fact of the matter is that R+L=J has more proof that ties together than anything anyone that doubts it can say to prove any other theory. In fact, I don't think you even beleive yourself, I think you know its true but you just like to get put in you place in an argument and then come back with "see, i totally debunked that theory." When in fact you've just argued points that make no sense.

Not once have I ever seen you, or anyone that tries to disprove the theory be able to come up with a chain of explanations for all the evidence that fits together well enough to actually warrant consideration. You may be able to come up with different ideas for one point or another, but not the evidence as a whole.

On that note, I'm going to eat my lunch now, come out from under your bridge when you're ready to play again.

EDIT: apologies to the board and the MODS for anything I said that is considered a personal attack, only trying to defend my points and not get my "ass kicked" in the debate.

[zmflavius]

I dunno. I reckon anyone who has read all four books is worthy of an opinion. If someone struggled to read it all then they are probably more worthy to make an opinion thant you or me.

This.

And I'm not certain how a person who couldn't read the books would have a better understanding of it. That said, my point was that D&D both guessed the parentage, and GRRM was "surprised and pleased." Presumably, this means that they got it right. However, GRRM would certainly not be surprised if someone simply picked up the first theory to appear, such as Wylla or Ashara.

Speaking of which, you never supplied the five quotes I challenged you to find which supported E+W=J.

[SerArthurHeath]

No worries, I guess we'll find out who's right soon anyway.

N+W=J is a valid theory and there are merits to it, even if I am convinced that evidence points to R and L an can find nothing contradictory to this theory. If N +W is proven to be the correct theory in aDwD (assuming we find out at this stage) then I will happily come on this board and address you and admit I was wrong. Will you do the same if I am proven correct?

[shouldbedoingsomethingelse]

hi, i'm new to the forum and new to the series.

i found the forum actually looking to see if my hunch that jon was ned's dead sister's son was correct. i haven't read the books, and am not reading them now--i hadn't even heard of game of thrones until it started on HBO, and the tv series is all i know.

both of my parents started reading the series though when the show started (dad is on book 3 now, mom is almost done with book 2). sometime after the 1st or 2nd show i think it was, i asked them if jon was the sister's son. i can't really say why exctly i got that impression, it just seemed to make sense: the focus on her sarcophagus in the first show, ned's secrecy, etc.--if someone is willing to acknowledge one's bastard but not the bastard's mother, the only reason would be to protect the mother's honor, right? and in feudal systems, maids don't have any honor to protect; they are just one of the masses of "non-people." i also don't think HBO would waste time introducing the dead sister if she plays no role going forward--there are already too many characters for a tv show. if HBO has kept her and introduced her in the first show as a corpse, then i'd say she'll be pretty important at some point. and since the show hasn't bothered itself with the history of the rebellion at all, so i don't think it is including her just for backstory purposes.

anyway, my mom went nuts and said there was no way that ned had sex with his sister! but i hadn't thought that, i had always assumed he was lying about being the father, since a man having a child out of wedlock is not that big of a deal (compared to a woman having a child out of wedlock). i didn't have any clue who jon's real dad might have been, since i only knew the characters that have been on the show, but i didn't think it could be robert because he obviously is so in love with ned's dead sister that he would have cherished their son, had it been his.

anyway, reading this thread has been really interesting (i read the whole thing, though i only skimmed the last page or so :rolleyes:)

i thought it might be interesting to let you experts in on a tv show newbie's reaction.

ps: after reading the thread, i asked my parents what they thought about the r+l=j theory. my dad said, he didn't know, but figures the maid isn't the mom; but my mom, was only slightly less horrified then when she thought i meant ned and his sister were lovers, because ned's sister was kidnapped and abused by r (maybe this is why other book fans are opposed? they don't like r?).

but then again, the show may not be very accurate, since i also liked visearys (sp?), but i saw that most book fans seem to hate him...he was just funny (on tv, at least--not nice for sure, but then no one seems very nice on the show, other than jon and ned)...anyway, i liked him more than i like his sister, she's boring...

so anyway, that's my tv newbie's take on r+l=j :thumbsup:

[Raventhal]

First of all I am no Jon Snow fan. I like the Lannister brothers, I liked Robb Stark.

"How did Lyanna die?"

From a fever. It is said in the book she died from a fever.

Remember these guys don't have antibiotics so dying from a fever was quite common in those days. I haven't looked into it too much, but I think women dying from childbirth before modern medicine was due to complications such as blood loss. I mean a woman doesn't give birth and then suddenly worry about "birth fever".

Thanks for that question. All other evidence aside, this is enough to prove R+L=J is untrue. She was in her "bed of blood" which Snowians claim is proof of her just giving birth. Well pretty impossible feat then. Someone nearly dead of fever is hardly going to be able to handle a 1-40 hour labour to pop out a baby.

Uh what kind of fever did Lyanna have that would cause her to be in a bed of blood? If anything it is more evidence that she was in a bed of blood and with fever which are signs of death from a complication in child birth. She had heavy bleeding in child birth and got a fever and died. Ned never ever states that she was murdered or killed. Just that she died. I would think if one of the 3 Kings Guards men(why would they do it) did killed Lyanna Ned would look at them differently.

There is nowhere that states when and why she had a fever and in a bed of blood. It just a likely conclusion considering a romance/kidnapping with good timing and the Kings Guarding a woman from his brother to the death post war?

What makes more sense that some of the most honor bound guys in the realm are guarding a heir to the death after hearing news of infanticide by rebels or the Kings Guard guarding a half dead woman and rape victim from her brother to the death because of an order after the war and masters are dead abandoning the new heir Viserys... because they're loyal but just not to the new heir?

What was Ned's promise?

I don't know. Do you? Well.... I do know that he promised to bury her at Winterfell. If she loved Rhaegar so much like most Snowians believe, then why didn't she ask to be buried at the place of their "joy" like everyone else buried there. The other promises? I really don't know. What I do know is that it wasn't a promise to look after her kid. Maybe she was real sad about running away from her duty like she did and made Ned promise to not make the same mistake she did. She tells Ned to honor the family and Stark name. Hence why Ned is so anal over honor and duty in the books.

He returned her body to Winterfell, wasn't that. What was the bed of blood?

He returned her to Winterfell because it was what she loved most. She didn't love Rhaegar, she didn't love Robert. Lyanna loved her family and House Stark and just wanted to go home after being held prisoner for so long. As for the bed of blood. Well she died in that bed. Maybe the fever made her bleed in the latter stages. Bed of blood equals deathbed? Not a stretch at all. Seems more likely than lifebed where her child was supposedly born.

No evidence or even conjecture implied except the burying. No evidence either way that she wanted to be with Rheagar or she didn't. But the likelihood of a fever making her bleed enough to be in bed of blood is a reach. Ned is not the type for dramatics and I seriously doubt he would say bed of blood unless was a messy bed of blood.

Why were there Kingsguard there at a remote tower when Rhaegar isn't there?

ummm, coz Rhaegar told them to? From what I've gathered there was only one Kings Guard with the Mad King at the time. Rhaegar had craftily got them away from the Mad King because he was planning a Grand Council coup. The 3 kings gaurd guarded the tower because Rhaegar told them to. The kings guard just do whatever they're told.

Why did Rhaegar order it? I dunno, but I do know he has a history of treating woman like total crap. For example, when he won the blue wreath/crown thing. He rides right past his wife (in front of every noble in the land no less) and gives it to Lyanna. *clap.... clap.... clap* nice one Rhaegar. Dishonour your wife in front of the entire kingdom so you can crack onto a young girl who looks hot.

Rhaegar might have been fair in politics and military. The evidence however suggests he treated women like absolute crap.

Again the real question is not why there were there on orders. The real question is why they were there protecting a woman from her brother after their master's death with new heir to the throne. Kings Guards there specifically said they were honor bound. That passes on to the new heirs after their previous masters are dead. Obvious reason is Lyanna was either married to Rhaegar and/or protecting a new heir child. What you're saying essentially is the legendary knights Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower King's Guard honor was to up hold their dead masters wishes to keep his rape victim from being returned to her family and to fight to the death there? This is over going to his brother the new heir and his new born sister who they knew their locations?

Why would Robert even ask if he never saw Ned getting it on with Wylla? He mistaked Wylla for Betty and then gets corrected. Robert asks what she looked like and Ned gets all defensive. This shows that Ned was in love with Wylla but had to abandon her for his duty. Wylla was at Winterfell for a bit, but no doubt Cat went spaz and made her leave. Many years later Cat mentions the Ashara rumour, a round about way to get information on Wylla since Ned is so obviously touchy about it. Ned shuts Cat down and that's that.

In conclusion. The Snowian movement amazes me. It's like a bunch of Jon Snow fans have banded together and created a new religion. Converting new R+L=J desciples any chance you get. Like Jon is so amazing he can't be the bastard child of some serving girl. Believe me. Jon is awesome because it doesn't matter who his parents are.

It's not an "anti-climax" that Jon's mother is Wylla. It's an amazing story. It shows that all the games of noble families is crap. You don't have to have to have pure bloodlines and noble parents to "save the world". Even if your mother is "Wylla" you can grow up and save the world.

Maybe because Ned told Robert that to trick him? Oh maybe because he just approved of the killing of babies Targaryen's that were half another major house and had a falling out over it. Robert was in KL and Wylla was likely in Starfell because apparently she is a wet nurse to the Daynes. There is no way for Robert to know.

In about a year's span Ned goes from Vale to Winterfell rallies troops and is married some time and makes Robb. Leaves and fights unknown battles until he gets to the Trident battle. Fights to Kings Landing and finds Jamie on throne, then goes to Storms Reach to break seige. Then goes back west across the whole continent to ToJ. Then he goes to Starfall to return the sword and knocks up their family wet nurse. Then goes to Kings Landing to tell Robert about Lyanna's death and reconciles and then to Winterfell with a baby Robb's age. Pregnancy takes 10 months to full term and likely in those days a premature baby isn't going to make it if it's under 7 months if then. In what time did Ned do the deed. I will grant Wylla could have been anywhere.

[Volderon]

I need to ask something that's always bothered me. Wouldn't the heir be Viserys since he was the Kings son? It wouldn't have been Rhaegar's son Aegon before Viserys, atleast that's what I think?

Now of course because there are not alot of Targs Jon would be the heir assuming he's not a bastard, but during the Trident it would still be Viserys I'm thinking...

[Popgun]

here is why E+W=J is true

Easy to get overwhelmed by the Snowian Church. Like I love Jon too and will continue to do so when GRRM reveals E+W=J. When E+W=J is revealed as truth I'm anticipating a huge wave of fan outrage. I wouldn't be surprised to see all the Snowians band together and start petitions and the like to get the books rewritten so the "great" Rhaegar can suddenly be Jon's father.

"How did Lyanna die?"

From a fever. It is said in the book she died from a fever.

Remember these guys don't have antibiotics so dying from a fever was quite common in those days. I haven't looked into it too much, but I think women dying from childbirth before modern medicine was due to complications such as blood loss. I mean a woman doesn't give birth and then suddenly worry about "birth fever".

Thanks for that question. All other evidence aside, this is enough to prove R+L=J is untrue. She was in her "bed of blood" which Snowians claim is proof of her just giving birth. Well pretty impossible feat then. Someone nearly dead of fever is hardly going to be able to handle a 1-40 hour labour to pop out a baby.

What was Ned's promise?

I don't know. Do you? Well.... I do know that he promised to bury her at Winterfell. If she loved Rhaegar so much like most Snowians believe, then why didn't she ask to be buried at the place of their "joy" like everyone else buried there. The other promises? I really don't know. What I do know is that it wasn't a promise to look after her kid. Maybe she was real sad about running away from her duty like she did and made Ned promise to not make the same mistake she did. She tells Ned to honor the family and Stark name. Hence why Ned is so anal over honor and duty in the books.

He returned her body to Winterfell, wasn't that. What was the bed of blood?

He returned her to Winterfell because it was what she loved most. She didn't love Rhaegar, she didn't love Robert. Lyanna loved her family and House Stark and just wanted to go home after being held prisoner for so long. As for the bed of blood. Well she died in that bed. Maybe the fever made her bleed in the latter stages. Bed of blood equals deathbed? Not a stretch at all. Seems more likely than lifebed where her child was supposedly born.

Why were there Kingsguard there at a remote tower when Rhaegar isn't there?

ummm, coz Rhaegar told them to? From what I've gathered there was only one Kings Guard with the Mad King at the time. Rhaegar had craftily got them away from the Mad King because he was planning a Grand Council coup. The 3 kings gaurd guarded the tower because Rhaegar told them to. The kings guard just do whatever they're told.

Why did Rhaegar order it? I dunno, but I do know he has a history of treating woman like total crap. For example, when he won the blue wreath/crown thing. He rides right past his wife (in front of every noble in the land no less) and gives it to Lyanna. *clap.... clap.... clap* nice one Rhaegar. Dishonour your wife in front of the entire kingdom so you can crack onto a young girl who looks hot.

Rhaegar might have been fair in politics and military. The evidence however suggests he treated women like absolute crap.

Why would Robert even ask if he never saw Ned getting it on with Wylla? He mistaked Wylla for Betty and then gets corrected. Robert asks what she looked like and Ned gets all defensive. This shows that Ned was in love with Wylla but had to abandon her for his duty. Wylla was at Winterfell for a bit, but no doubt Cat went spaz and made her leave. Many years later Cat mentions the Ashara rumour, a round about way to get information on Wylla since Ned is so obviously touchy about it. Ned shuts Cat down and that's that.

In conclusion. The Snowian movement amazes me. It's like a bunch of Jon Snow fans have banded together and created a new religion. Converting new R+L=J desciples any chance you get. Like Jon is so amazing he can't be the bastard child of some serving girl. Believe me. Jon is awesome because it doesn't matter who his parents are.

It's not an "anti-climax" that Jon's mother is Wylla. It's an amazing story. It shows that all the games of noble families is crap. You don't have to have to have pure bloodlines and noble parents to "save the world". Even if your mother is "Wylla" you can grow up and save the world.

[Dragonfish]

I need to ask something that's always bothered me. Wouldn't the heir be Viserys since he was the Kings son? It wouldn't have been Rhaegar's son Aegon before Viserys, atleast that's what I think?

Now of course because there are not alot of Targs Jon would be the heir assuming he's not a bastard, but during the Trident it would still be Viserys I'm thinking...

I'm pretty sure that succession would fall to Rhaegar's children before it fell to Viserys.

[Evamitchelle]

I need to ask something that's always bothered me. Wouldn't the heir be Viserys since he was the Kings son? It wouldn't have been Rhaegar's son Aegon before Viserys, atleast that's what I think?

Now of course because there are not alot of Targs Jon would be the heir assuming he's not a bastard, but during the Trident it would still be Viserys I'm thinking...

In fact, Rhaegar's children would come before Viserys in the line of succession : so Aegon VI before a Viserys III (is he a third ? Can't remember). For example, if Joffrey and Tommen had been Robert's true sons, the throne would have passed on to them before Stannis and Renly.