Jump to content

The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

Recommended Posts

I think we are getting bored with ourselves here, July 12th can't come soon enough...

I have felt this way for about a decade... only broken up by AFFC and TMK... which didn't do a lot to quell my need for Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i guess i can then count myself fortunate then that i didn't discover this series until summer of 2008?

I'd say so in terms of my own waiting, but in all honesty everyone has experienced the wait in some regards unless they are new to the story this year. I picked up AGOT in the beginning of 1997, so I've been hooked for a good 14 years now. Its funny to think that I have read these novels for half my life. Maybe that is why I feel so strongly about R+L=J. I've been a member here for about 5 years, but lurked before that. I don't remember how long it actually took me to sign up and start posting, but I've felt that R+L=J for a very long time without anything coming up that has shaken my confidence in the theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, since Prince Harry's royalty is derived through his father, Prince Charles, then he would be heir.

Harry is officially accepted as Charles' son. Even though there are rumours otherwise, because both Charles and Diana were suspected of not being entirely faithful in that marriage, it wouldn't affect Harry legitimacy as there is no proof otherwise

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Harry is officially accepted as Charles' son. Even though there are rumours otherwise, because both Charles and Diana were suspected of not being entirely faithful in that marriage, it wouldn't affect Harry legitimacy as there is no proof otherwise

There is no proof that we know of. It would not surprise me if there was a DNA test done secretly (i.e. not public, with good reason). I think, even if the result had not been the official version, Charles would have continued to be Harry's father in all respects, public and private; he seems like a good father who cares for those two young men. When Prince Harry was younger, I thought he looked a bit like Prince Philip; less so now, but he could resemble the Spencer side. It's hard to tell if Prince Harry resembles that Hewitt person....The only way that the possible scandal could really matter would be if William and Kate do not have children, since Harry would then become heir after William, and then whatever children Harry has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, for the record, it's James Hewitt, not Norm Hewitt. However, since Hewitt and Diana had an affair while she was still Princess of Wales, that is considered high treason, a capital offence, so both of them could have been executed. Granted, we are too "civilized" in this day and age for that to happen, but still...

EDIT: Wow, we have gotten off track. Nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, for the record, it's James Hewitt, not Norm Hewitt. However, since Hewitt and Diana had an affair while she was still Princess of Wales, that is considered high treason, a capital offence, so both of them could have been executed. Granted, we are too "civilized" in this day and age for that to happen, but still...

EDIT: Wow, we have gotten off track. Nice.

Well that makes a lot more sense... thank you Galen. I couldn't figure out how Norm Hewitt would have had anything to do with Princess Diana except for possibly a one night wham bam thank you ma'am after a match or something.

Never heard of the James Hewitt guy before, but Popgun, wherever you are, you aren't completely crazy because it seems other people might think this too. That being said, you still haven't said anything to disprove R+L=J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it reading the books that made it obvious to you, or reading the books and coming on this site and then going back and reading again?

I'll be honest and say I had my doubts about Ned being Jon's father, and was under the impression it could be R+L=J, but until I came on here I wasn't 100%

I think the only reason so many people think it's "obvious" is that we've had about 11 years since ASOS and we've been able to bat the matter back and forth the whole time to put every single scrap of evidence together.

In terms of Dany I was convinced right at the early Stannis chapters in book 2.

In terms of Jon's heritage well I kind of expected his heritage to be a big deal and so I was always specifically looking for clues. I actually came here the first time to see if anyone thought the same as I did. There is a ton in the books that point to it.

But like I said, the weird thing is that a lot of the big mysteries are not as straight forward as they appear. Joffrey trying to assassinate Bran, the poisoning of Jon Arryn, etc... had a fairly significant twist in the reveal, and I wonder if that will happen with Jon as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, for the record, it's James Hewitt, not Norm Hewitt. However, since Hewitt and Diana had an affair while she was still Princess of Wales, that is considered high treason, a capital offence, so both of them could have been executed. Granted, we are too "civilized" in this day and age for that to happen, but still...

EDIT: Wow, we have gotten off track. Nice.

Ehhh, actually, all former capital crimes are now punishable with life-in-prison.

Back on topic...

Someone post something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can anyone point to a thread or post that has some legitimate counterpoints to the evidence of the bed of blood, Kingsguard and the promise being tied together?

I would like to read what others think that actually ties the three together cohesively instead of the bloody bed is from a wound, the promise is to bury her at Winterfell and the KG atte there because they were told to be.

I totally believe Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents but in the time its taken to write this post I've thought of a much more sound explanation than that.

The KG are left at the tower making sure Lyanna didn't escape because Rhaegar doesn't want Robert to have her. He orders them to kill her if there is a chance she could escape, a "mine or nobodies" type of thing. When Ned and company show up one of the KG goes up and stabs her in the gut, making the bed bloody. Ned and Howland survive, and when Lyanna says promise me Ned it's about getting revenge on Rhaegar for what he's done... Which he doesn't need to respond to because it's already done. Jon is in fact Ashara's kid, who Ned fathered on her during the tourney at Harrenhall, and picks up when he takes Dawn back to Starfall.

Complete BS, which I don't believe myself, but at least it ties everything together better than individual explanations for each bit of evidence. Please proceed to turn this "theory" into swiss cheese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you very much for your input, and welcome to the boards!!! I find it very interesting that from watching the show you got the idea Lyanna was Jon's mother, and from the quote from GRRM that D & D guessed Jon's parentage correctly that makes me feel even more confident in the theory than I did before. You mother's reaction is pretty valid, but since you explained you didn't think Ned was his father has she mentioned anything else?

AS to Viserys, I will agree with you, on screen he is much more likable than i the books... but seeing him crowned was still awesome and satisfying!

i've been thinking about what it was that made me think jon wasn't ned's son...i think i actually first decided that after the scene where ned says goodbye to jon (ned is heading to the capital and jon is heading to the wall), and ned says something like, "next time i see you, i'll tell you all about your mother, she's was a wonderful person"...or something like that. i just sort of made the connection with the dead sister from the first show because why all the focus on the bastard and the dead sister then?

and just the fact that jon being a bastard is brought up in like every scene he is in made me think something was up too--the other guys on the wall aren't continually called "hey, rapist" or "oh look it's the rapist," but he is continually called "jon the bastard," plus he's all angsty about his bastard-ness. but you wouldn't think that a recognized and acknowledged bastard, brought up as, and called, "lord" would have so many mommy issues. :laugh:

anyway--after your reply, i thought of other things that sort of indicate jon's parentage is important:

first, there are three main characters, ned, jon, and danayries (sp?), and about five million supporting characters, including ned's dead sister who makes an "appearance" in almost every episode: in the first show, as a corpse; then the next show robert is talking about her over lunch in the woods; then cersee (sp?) bringings her up in a few shows. the dead sister has a bigger role then that grunting, monosyllabic-horse guy that danayries maried! :ph34r:

next, like i said above, jon's parentage is a big topic. it seems to come up in every show somehow (mostly through his angsty-ness about it though). but since he's a main charater, it must be important, just like the eggs are to danayries (she is always playing with them in like every scene). jon's parentage is kind of like sookie stackhouse's blood: "ooh, why is it so special and tasty!?"

finally, there is ned's honor, and how it screws things up. so i figure that ned's honor will be shown to have either (1) screwed up the kingdom, because he kept the secret of jon's birth or (2) it will save the kingdom in the end, because he kept the secret of jon's birth. i figure (hope) it will be the latter--poor ned needs to be redeemed, cause right now he is the laughing stock of the internet: http://winteriscomingbitch.tumblr.com/post/6076701133/pulled-this-off-of-ontd-dont-know-who-made-it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The KG are left at the tower making sure Lyanna didn't escape because Rhaegar doesn't want Robert to have her. He orders them to kill her if there is a chance she could escape, a "mine or nobodies" type of thing. When Ned and company show up one of the KG goes up and stabs her in the gut, making the bed bloody. Ned and Howland survive, and when Lyanna says promise me Ned it's about getting revenge on Rhaegar for what he's done... Which he doesn't need to respond to because it's already done. Jon is in fact Ashara's kid, who Ned fathered on her during the tourney at Harrenhall, and picks up when he takes Dawn back to Starfall.

Harrenhal tourney is too early, Ned still thinks highly of the Aerys Kingsguard, which is unlikely if they murdered Lyanna, they would have a tough time going about this while fighting Ned and his six friends, and three kingsguard (or kingsguard at all) seems gratuitous for a mine or nobodies procedure when a few guardsmen could work just as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ps: about the dead sister, another thing is that she seems to be the "cause" of all the problems--

1. her death destroyed robert, turning him into a drunk

2. her memory destroyed cersee and robert's marriage, turning cersee into a nasty shrew

3. because of 1 and 2, the dead sister "caused" cersee to hate all starks and want to hurt them--ned never had a chance, cersee would have made him pay for his sister having "ruined" her life, even if ned had played things a little smarter

4. if the sister had lived, she would have married robert, he would have been happy, her son wouldn't have been an angsty bastard, the most powerful families in the country wouldn't be on the brink of war, and a crazy, inbred jerk wouldn't be on the thrown--see it's all her fault! :P

i'm not sure how the dead sister plays into littlefinger's hatred of ned, but she probably does somehow, even if only in a warped way like with cersee, if so then she is also "responsible" for littlefinger's treachery of ned too

so that's why i figure she must be jon's mom (since jon's mom is a mystery), and ned is paying the price for protecting his sister. i guess jon will redeem ned and the dead sister in the end...i don't know how the egg-loving blondie fits in, but i figure she is going to end up being evil...she just seems kind of like she will end up evil, i don't know why, she just creeps me out...maybe she will end up crazy like her dad and start burning everyone alive or something...i dunno...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The KG are left at the tower making sure Lyanna didn't escape because Rhaegar doesn't want Robert to have her. He orders them to kill her if there is a chance she could escape, a "mine or nobodies" type of thing. When Ned and company show up one of the KG goes up and stabs her in the gut, making the bed bloody. Ned and Howland survive, and when Lyanna says promise me Ned it's about getting revenge on Rhaegar for what he's done... Which he doesn't need to respond to because it's already done. Jon is in fact Ashara's kid, who Ned fathered on her during the tourney at Harrenhall, and picks up when he takes Dawn back to Starfall.

Major timeline problems with this. First, Rhaegar is dead for at least six weeks to two months by the time Ned arrives at the tower, and he, obviously, knows that fact even if the kingsguard have neglected to tell Lyanna. Seems unlikely Ned would pledge his revenge on a dead man. Second, Jon is much too young, by a year or more, to be the child of Ned and Ashara conceived at Harrenhal. For Ashara to be his mother we have to imagine a meeting between her and Ned sometime around the Battle of the Bells. A meeting that puts either a rebel commander or a well known loyalist behind enemy lines without anyone else noticing. Not impossible, but we haven't a hint that this took place. It also ignores Lyanna dying holding on to the blackened dead roses that seem to point to her love of Rhaegar. Which is the method of most of the people, though not all, who argue for this scenario - ignore anything that points in another direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ps: about the dead sister, another thing is that she seems to be the "cause" of all the problems--

1. her death destroyed robert, turning him into a drunk

He already was a drinker

2. her memory destroyed cersee and robert's marriage, turning cersee into a nasty shrew

No, she was already a schemer. She was more upset at Robert for killing Rhaegar

3. because of 1 and 2, the dead sister "caused" cersee to hate all starks and want to hurt them--ned never had a chance, cersee would have made him pay for his sister having "ruined" her life, even if ned had played things a little smarter

True

4. if the sister had lived, she would have married robert, he would have been happy, her son wouldn't have been an angsty bastard, the most powerful families in the country wouldn't be on the brink of war, and a crazy, inbred jerk wouldn't be on the thrown--see it's all her fault! :P

Oh, I forgot that Rhaegar wasn't an inbred jerk.... He was willing to forget his wedding vows and run off with someone else's fiance. I guess that's nice behavior.

i'm not sure how the dead sister plays into littlefinger's hatred of ned, but she probably does somehow, even if only in a warped way like with cersee, if so then she is also "responsible" for littlefinger's treachery of ned too

LF was in love with Catelyn, so he hates Ned for "stealing" her from him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every inch of speculation has been covered, so I won't comment on any new "evidence" that proves this theory true or not. But I personally hope that it is. I don't expect or even want Jon to rule the Seven Kingdoms. But I am pulling for him to be AA/PtwP, to be the one that leads the fight against the Others and come out on the winning side with an awesomely heroic/tragic death scene.

Okayyyyyyy, what if Howland Reed appears with a signed document of marriage that the , at the time, high septon, lyanna and rheagar signed as a marriage certificate( did they even have that then ;) and they kept in the case Jon's parentage(or Rheajon's B) )ever came into question ? When both parents were dead and Ned's promise to Lyanna came into play, Ned gave Howland the scroll for safekeeping and because he could pass as a stark bastard, Ned took the child.

Would that be proof to the masses :lmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would that be proof to the masses :lmao:

The masses don't get to vote for who is king. The only person who has to be convinced is Daenerys.

Not that that means Jon would become king even if he, or someone else convinces her. All this becomes more and more complicated by the mummer's dragon prophecy and at least one non-Jon, non-Dany claimant to the Targaryen throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The masses don't get to vote for who is king. The only person who has to be convinced is Daenerys.

Not that that means Jon would become king even if he, or someone else convinces her. All this becomes more and more complicated by the mummer's dragon prophecy and at least one non-Jon, non-Dany claimant to the Targaryen throne.

Sorry, I maybe shouldn't have used that word(Masses) as i meant the nobility of Westeros(but there's alot of them it seems....) :drunk:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings!

This is something that I have been thinking about since I read AGOT the first time. One of Jon's first chapters after being named the Old Bears personal steward. I cannot quote from the book since my copy is on loan to friend, but anyway Jon is in the Old Bears solar talking with the commander, when they some how start talking about kings and Mormonts Raven start to yell "King! King! (only documentet time that this has happened i believe). In any case Jon says something like:

- I believe he means for you to have a crown.

Icant recall what the Lord Commanders answer to this is, but whatever it is his eyes never leave Jon ( this is clearly stated, and thus give an impression of imprtance)

Now, I am not sure what you think about this, but I got the impression that there is something royal or in anycase special about Jons blood other than his Stark heritage.

Perhaps the Old Bears role in this is unimportant and this is just a sort of stray clue about Jon. Or it means nothing. Or Mormont knows something we don't.

I could find any record stating exactly when the Old bear took the black, only that he supposedly did it in order to step down, a sort of abdication, so that his son Jorah could become the lord of Bear Island.

All I know is that Jorahs first wife ( the unnamed Glover, who was chosen for JOrah by his father) died because of a third misscarriage after ten years of marriage. This wife is said to have died a short time before the Greyjoy rebellion, and that Jorah was lord mormont at the time.

In other words The old bear could have taken his vows right after Roberts Rebellion, we don't know at this time, so as far as I know it isn't impossible for Jeor Mormont to have known something important regarding Jon Snow and the R+L=J theory.

Also to people arguing about what Jon would do if he found out that he was no bastard, but the righfull heir to the throne through a union between R and L. And yes I am aware of House Baratheons claim due to their Targ blood and the right of Conquest.

English is not my Native language so excuse any flaws in my grammar or vocabulary.

THank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Harrenhal tourney is too early, Ned still thinks highly of the Aerys Kingsguard, which is unlikely if they murdered Lyanna, they would have a tough time going about this while fighting Ned and his six friends, and three kingsguard (or kingsguard at all) seems gratuitous for a mine or nobodies procedure when a few guardsmen could work just as well.

NOTE: PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, I DON'T BELIEVE THE WORDS THAT I AM TYPING, I AM 100% IN THE R+L=J CAMP: END NOTE

I don't really think the Harrenhall tourney was to early for Ashara to be knocked up, go home, have a baby and then Ned pick up a 12 to 18 month old kid when he drops off Dawn. As to the rest, I think you are absolutely right, Ned would have felt more animosity towards the KG if they had killed his sister, and 3 KG is too much for a order like that.

Still, at least I tried to fit the pieces together instead of ignoring the ones that don't work with my theory like every other person that is against R=L=J

I still haven't figure out how to do the mulitpost quote, so credit to SFDanny for the below:

Major timeline problems with this. First, Rhaegar is dead for at least six weeks to two months by the time Ned arrives at the tower, and he, obviously, knows that fact even if the kingsguard have neglected to tell Lyanna. Seems unlikely Ned would pledge his revenge on a dead man. Second, Jon is much too young, by a year or more, to be the child of Ned and Ashara conceived at Harrenhal. For Ashara to be his mother we have to imagine a meeting between her and Ned sometime around the Battle of the Bells. A meeting that puts either a rebel commander or a well known loyalist behind enemy lines without anyone else noticing. Not impossible, but we haven't a hint that this took place. It also ignores Lyanna dying holding on to the blackened dead roses that seem to point to her love of Rhaegar. Which is the method of most of the people, though not all, who argue for this scenario - ignore anything that points in another direction.

About Ashara being knocked up... they could be lying about Jon's age, if you say a kid is 18 months old when he's really 24 months old, depending on their lvel of growth it could pass. I've seen kids I thought were 5 that are 3 and vice versa.

Who am I kidding, it's all BS, I just wanted to challenge myself to see if I could actually make valid points against R+L=J and it just isn't possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...