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The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

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A thought about the Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy, what if Rhaegar hadn't sent them there but Mad King Aerys did? Not sure why...hostage? Or maybe Aerys knew Lyanna was preggers and sent his Lord Commander of the King's Guard and his best knight (Ser Arthur Dayne) to protect his last remaining heir in Westeros (this is after Rhaegar's death).

Thoughts?

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Greetings!

This is something that I have been thinking about since I read AGOT the first time. One of Jon's first chapters after being named the Old Bears personal steward. I cannot quote from the book since my copy is on loan to friend, but anyway Jon is in the Old Bears solar talking with the commander, when they some how start talking about kings and Mormonts Raven start to yell "King! King! (only documentet time that this has happened i believe). In any case Jon says something like:

- I believe he means for you to have a crown.

Icant recall what the Lord Commanders answer to this is, but whatever it is his eyes never leave Jon ( this is clearly stated, and thus give an impression of imprtance)

Now, I am not sure what you think about this, but I got the impression that there is something royal or in anycase special about Jons blood other than his Stark heritage.

Perhaps the Old Bears role in this is unimportant and this is just a sort of stray clue about Jon. Or it means nothing. Or Mormont knows something we don't.

I could find any record stating exactly when the Old bear took the black, only that he supposedly did it in order to step down, a sort of abdication, so that his son Jorah could become the lord of Bear Island.

All I know is that Jorahs first wife ( the unnamed Glover, who was chosen for JOrah by his father) died because of a third misscarriage after ten years of marriage. This wife is said to have died a short time before the Greyjoy rebellion, and that Jorah was lord mormont at the time.

In other words The old bear could have taken his vows right after Roberts Rebellion, we don't know at this time, so as far as I know it isn't impossible for Jeor Mormont to have known something important regarding Jon Snow and the R+L=J theory.

Also to people arguing about what Jon would do if he found out that he was no bastard, but the righfull heir to the throne through a union between R and L. And yes I am aware of House Baratheons claim due to their Targ blood and the right of Conquest.

English is not my Native language so excuse any flaws in my grammar or vocabulary.

THank you!

Welcome to the boards!

And your English is very good!

And I think Mormont said "it's an easy word to say, an easy word to like." After the raven said "king."

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I don't really think the Harrenhall tourney was to early for Ashara to be knocked up, go home, have a baby and then Ned pick up a 12 to 18 month old kid when he drops off Dawn...

About Ashara being knocked up... they could be lying about Jon's age, if you say a kid is 18 months old when he's really 24 months old, depending on their lvel of growth it could pass. I've seen kids I thought were 5 that are 3 and vice versa.

George has stated that Jon was born around 8 or 9 months before Dany, which was around the time of the Sack of King's Landing. So Jon had to have been conceived a few months into the war. That's why the timeline doesn't allow Jon to have been conceived at the Harrenhal tourney (which took place about a year or two before the war).

A thought about the Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy, what if Rhaegar hadn't sent them there but Mad King Aerys did?

We're told that Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was near the beginning of the war, and we're never given any indication that he found out later. So I'd say this theory is unlikely.

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Welcome to the boards!

And your English is very good!

And I think Mormont said "it's an easy word to say, an easy word to like." After the raven said "king."

Yes I believe your right!

It is the part about Mormonts eyes never leaving Jon, mainly the way it is said, that is haunting me(might not be the proper term)

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Yes I believe your right!

It is the part about Mormonts eyes never leaving Jon, mainly the way it is said, that is haunting me(might not be the proper term)

That makes sense, and I do remember the scene as well, when I get home from work I'm going to reread that because I had forgotten. I do recall thinking it was an interesting scene on my last reread though.

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One of the things that throws off everything is that size of the make it seem hard that wars and the type of traveling can take place in a year. I hope they release a clear time line at some point.

I think a great solo novel would be the Rebellion, but have it start with the Tourney at Harrenhall, and then end with Ned's trip to Starfall. That would be such a cool story following Ned, Rhaegar, Jamie and a couple others, maybe Lyanna and Robert.

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I think a great solo novel would be the Rebellion, but have it start with the Tourney at Harrenhall, and then end with Ned's trip to Starfall. That would be such a cool story following Ned, Rhaegar, Jamie and a couple others, maybe Lyanna and Robert.

Eh, prequels usually suck if you know how they end. The Rebellion is far more interesting as backstory, IMO.

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Eh, prequels usually suck if you know how they end. The Rebellion is far more interesting as backstory, IMO.

What if R+L=J is never confirmed or denied in the series? A solo novel of the Rebellion could tell the tale.

An I don't think it would suck anyway. We know how Dunk and Egg end up but I still like those stories.

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What if R+L=J is never confirmed or denied in the series? A solo novel of the Rebellion could tell the tale.

GRRM has said that Jon's parentage will be revealed in the story, so this point is moot.

An I don't think it would suck anyway. We know how Dunk and Egg end up but I still like those stories.

We know where Dunk and Egg eventually end up, which adds a certain layer of tragedy to the series. But we don't know what happens at the end of each story, other than the fact that they survive. In fact, I think the Dunk and Egg novellas only prove my point; they work so well precisely because they're not about events that we're already familiar with.

a prequel would probably be better than this series

Robert's Rebellion is certainly just as interesting if not more interesting than the current storyline, but it's only interesting as backstory, as an elaboration of how the characters we already know got to where they are in the current storyline. But as a story in it's own right, told separately from the current story, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting. We already know most of the major events that occur during the Rebellion, so a prequel story wouldn't really be all that compelling.

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GRRM has said that Jon's parentage will be revealed in the story, so this point is moot.

Where is it that he says this? not doubting you, but I have read that many of the mysteries will be reveled, but I've never read that Martin said specifically Jon's parentage will be. Even though it's pretty crucial in my mind.

We know where Dunk and Egg eventually end up, which adds a certain layer of tragedy to the series. But we don't know what happens at the end of each story, other than the fact that they survive. In fact, I think the Dunk and Egg novellas only prove my point; they work so well precisely because they're not about events that we're already familiar with.

To me its the same thing, we know they die at Summerhall. All the stories leading up to it is info we didn't have before but we know that nothing bad will truly happen until the last one. Just like we have the info from the Rebellion, and know what will happen, but the fun is in the telling. If this series hasn't left the impression on you that memories or tales of the past aren't always 100% accurate then I guess you could say a solo novel of the Rebellion wouldn't be worth it. To me, I wouldn't mind seeing it in print though. Not something that has to happen, but it would be very cool to read how it happened from perspectives during it happening.

Robert's Rebellion is certainly just as interesting if not more interesting than the current storyline, but it's only interesting as backstory, as an elaboration of how the characters we already know got to where they are in the current storyline. But as a story in it's own right, told separately from the current story, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting. We already know most of the major events that occur during the Rebellion, so a prequel story wouldn't really be all that compelling.

It wouldn't be that interesting or compelling to you, that's an opinion. I for one would like to read it. Martin is a talented enough author that I think he could make the story of the Rebellion something interesting and enjoyable to read. We already know certain details yes, but are missing a ton don't forget, or else what's the point of this thread?

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Where is it that he says this? not doubting you, but I have read that many of the mysteries will be reveled, but I've never read that Martin said specifically Jon's parentage will be. Even though it's pretty crucial in my mind.

The Tower of the Hand essay gives SSM #159 as a source. I checked the SSM myself to see if I could give a direct link, but they don't appear to be numbered anymore. Unless I'm using it wrong... :dunno:

To me its the same thing, we know they die at Summerhall. All the stories leading up to it is info we didn't have before but we know that nothing bad will truly happen until the last one. Just like we have the info from the Rebellion, and know what will happen, but the fun is in the telling.

Unlike Robert's Rebellion, the plots of the Hedge Knight, the Sworn Sword, and the Mystery Knight are never outlined in the main story of ASoIaF. That's what sets them apart. We know almost all the major events of the Rebellion, from Lyanna's "kidnapping" to Brandon's storming of the Red Keep to Rickard and Brandon's executions to Robert and Ned and Jon raising their banners to Ned's marriage to Cat to the Battle of the Bells to the Battle of the Trident to the Sack of King's Landing to the lifting of the siege of Storm's End to the Tower of Joy to the storming of Dragonstone. Yes, there are probably some other interesting details that we could learn, but they're just that: details; they exist to add interesting background to characters we already know. I don't think they could really sustain their own story.

If this series hasn't left the impression on you that memories or tales of the past aren't always 100% accurate then I guess you could say a solo novel of the Rebellion wouldn't be worth it.

I'm sorry, but this is a bit condescending.

It wouldn't be that interesting or compelling to you, that's an opinion.

It is indeed just an opinion, but I think it's a pretty sounds one. Most prequels based on events we already know well are not that interesting. Can you come up with an example of a compelling prequel about events you already know well?

We already know certain details yes, but are missing a ton don't forget, or else what's the point of this thread?

We know most of the important events (with the exception of the events surrounding Rhaegar and Lyanna, which will be revealed to us later), everything else is just window-dressing. Prequel stories that only exist to give you more details are not very compelling, IMO.

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He already was a drinker

No, she was already a schemer. She was more upset at Robert for killing Rhaegar

True

Oh, I forgot that Rhaegar wasn't an inbred jerk.... He was willing to forget his wedding vows and run off with someone else's fiance. I guess that's nice behavior.

LF was in love with Catelyn, so he hates Ned for "stealing" her from him.

what part of--i haven't read the books and only have watched the show and then read this thread--do you not understand?

the only reason i posted was to show you that even someone who is just watching the tv shows can independently come to the conclusion that the dead sister is jon's mom, and then someone replied to me and asked me about it, and i explained more fully about what had made me think that.

look, HBO is making the dead girl seem to be the link tieing all the threads together. this show probably costs a fortune, so they wouldn't spend any time on her at all if she wasn't important--look how little time they spend on drogo (or what ever his name is). he's a total after thought. (plus i think HBO pretty much got over the whole false-leads-to-nowhere-schtick with carnivale :rolleyes: )

about robert: big difference between a drinker and a drunk

about cersee: from what i read here, that rheagar guy was already married, so how could cersee have lost anything by robert killing him? she got to be queen cause he killed him. besides just because she is schemer, doesn't me she would hate robert without the dead sister haunting the marriage.

about rhaegar being a jerk: i don't know anything about that guy, but joffrey is a massive douche...if that rheagar guy had lived, then you'd have a different series. in this series, jofferey is an indisputably massive, inbred douche who is now king. ps: besides, why did you even bring him up? i haven't said anything about who jon's dad might be, just his mom, i even said i didn't know, other than it seems pretty obvious ned isn't it-- the show hasn't really given any dad-hints yet.

about littlefinger: from what i picked up just skimming the boards here, ned apparently wasn't even supposed to marry catelyn and apparently didn't want to either (and why would he, she kind of sucks), and he was also apparently in love with some other person. so littlefinger being mad at ned for taking catelyn from him, is as irrational as cersee being mad at ned, because her husband never got over a crush he had as teenager. littlefinger's treachery goes back to the dead sister too, because she's what leads to ned having to marry catelyn, which leads to littlefinger backstabbing him. haha, it all goes back to the dead sister. :thumbsup:

anyway cheers, sorry to have crashed your party...i'll see my self out... :smoking:

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all opinions are welcome here, however there are forums dedicated to people still reading and others for just the tv show. You have to expect that any debate/discussion here will take into account all of the books. Also, if a character's name is unfamilair to you, well, that's why the gods invented Google and the wiki.

If Lyanna had lived, Prince Rhaegar would likely be on the throne with Cersei as his queen. Rhaegar was planning on deposing Aerys, and his parents were brother and sister, making him just as inbred as Joffrey (even more so going back generations). Rhaegar is flawed for the reasons I mentioned, and his wife was sickly. If she had died, and Aerys was deposed, Cersei would have likely been queen. We find in AFfC that Cersei was in love with Rhaegar and the true reason she hated Robert was that he killed Rhaegar. LF was deeply in love with Cat, so when Brandon died, he hoped he'd have a chance with her, but instead Ned took up the mantel, so LF never forgave for that.

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the marriage is only one element of RLJ, just as it's also possible to have RLJ with kidnap and rape. And, yes, if the Targaryens once practiced polygamy, they could do it again. Personally, I don't believe they were married, but who knows.

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